766 réponses à ce sujet

[Aanorith]

Zevran is awesome. I had my character go with Zev and I'm straight. Because.. he's awesome.

[WilliamShatner]

Leliana is Leliana; that's all the justification she needs.

[ejoslin]

I don't think Sabriana was trolling -- I think she's trying to point out in an appropriate way (its own thread) that Leliana and Zevran have a lot in common. There's nothing wrong with wanting to discuss that. Zevran not only gets his own hate threads, but our longest Zevran love thread gets its share of trolls (which we know to ignore).

It's fine if you don't like the discussion, but why get upset that people may want to discuss this? I find it a very interesting discussion, personally.

Modifié par ejoslin, 26 février 2010 - 10:38 .

[Maria Caliban]

AndreaDraco wrote...

I used to have huge fights with DarthSion whenever he started his 'If he hits on me, I should be able to bash his skull in' crap. Heck, I managed to get him tempbanned about five times.

Agh. I remember him.

He was so bad. Apparently, he never bought Dragon Age though, because when all the 'you must register' threads popped up, he disappeared. I still see him in the ME forums though.

AndreaDraco wrote...
I reckon Sabriana was only trying to point out that Leliana - apparently for sexist reasons - doesn't get the same hatred Zevran gets.

Same-sex relations between women have always been more accepted than those between men. It's an ugly double standard, but this is hardly the way to combat it.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 26 février 2010 - 10:41 .

[Tirigon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


The way I would answer is this:
- She is now using her abilities to fight the blight
- She is pretty and cute.
- She has talent. A genius at her work.

In addition, her victims were probably Orlesian nobles, so they had it coming.

But that's just me. SOme people may not want to forgive her. Others may not know what to forgive in the first place.  

This.

Even Cerberus is sometimes right.

Btw, who condemns Zev? I like his style.

[SirGladiator]

I like Leliana, she's awesome. She was a Bard in Orlais, she did what Bards do, and she did it very well. She never mistreated my PC, and she was always kind and loving and supportive and always wanted my PC to do the right thing. She always said she tried to avoid violence whenever possible, she preferred to use trickery to get what she needed to get as a Bard, without physically hurting people. While noone is perfect, even Leliana, she's close enough for me .

[Sabriana]

I always knew there was a reason I liked you. Ejoslin. That's exactly it. Why slam one? He's not worse than she is. As a matter of fact, he doesn't lie. But she does.

[krylo]

Tirigon wrote...

Btw, who condemns Zev? I like his style.

Middle schoolers, mostly.  

And arm chair intellectuals with too much time on their hands and a slight case of insomnia.

[Tirigon]

Sabriana wrote...


I am contending that she is a killer. She had two years to remove herself from that life. Is she all removed? Not in my experience as a player.

So what?

Sorry, but you know, the PC is not really an angel of innocence and kindness either, nor your other companions.
I mean, Stenn wiped out a family, Oghren is a drunken killer, Shale loves crushing heads etc etc....

[RangerSG]

Sabriana wrote...

Ok. I'm a rabid Zevran fan-girl, and I am getting very tired of having to defend him to the homophobics and the one's who can't see their own thoughts in front of their eyes.

Leliana is a bard. She grew up in a wealthy household. She was never tortured or abused. She was not a slave her entire life. She choose to become a bard, and would do any- and everything to please the woman she loved.

She is very enthusiastic about her chosen life-style. She describes how she loved the 'hunt', the 'seduction' and the 'killing' of men.

She lived that way because she chose it. Not because she was a slave. Not because she had no other choice. She lies to the PC from the beginning on. No one forced her into anything. She fell for a woman, and did anything to please her. Unlike Zevran, she describes torture as being a factor.

After meeting Majorlaine, she describes how much she loved her life-style. Unlike Zevran, who reveals that he regrets many things, she practically gushes about her joy about being a bard. Why is it forgiveable to her, but Zevran gets condemned? I really would like some input here, thank you.

1) Making personal attacks on those you disagree with is a rubbish way to start an argument. My status as a heterosexual male IRL has zip, zilch, nada to do with how I play a video game. And assuming it has anything to do with anyway another does is pure projection.

2) Actually, Leliana was tortured if you bothered to learn about her past. And it made a difference in how she sees things. But unlike Zev, who uses it as a defense for cruelty, Lel used it to become a better person. Hmm...interesting that. Note here, my female PC romanced Zev, so I'm not a Zev-hater at all. He's funny and charming in his way. But using his poor, lamented lifestyle...which he didn't lament one bit, in truth, other than not being able to call the shots...is a poor, factually bankrupt argument.

3) It's natural seeing Marj again wouls stir up feelings in Lel she wanted buried. But there was much about a bard's life to enjoy. And umm...Zev goes on and on about how he wants to remain an assassin. So his "laments," again, are the lack of control, not the profession.

That said, I like Zev. But there's no reason for this, "Some people don't like him, so I'm going to throw crap at Leliana" argument. Fact of the matter is, people who don't like Zev typically don't have an issue with his sexuality. But rather the fact that he has already tried to KILL the PC and can very easily choose to do so a second time, or at least take a hike when he *could* aid the PC. (And calling all straights 'homophobes' is nonsense anyway. I can disagree with a lifestyle without being 'afraid' of it. And claiming that one can't is nothing but a smear tactic that says more about the fears of the person using it than the target.)

So yes, I have to agree this argument looks like a flame-baiting troll special to me too.

[Maria Caliban]

krylo wrote...

And arm chair intellectuals with too much time on their hands and a slight case of insomnia.

Warm milk helps.

[krylo]

RangerSG wrote...


1) Making personal attacks on those you disagree with is a rubbish way to start an argument. My status as a heterosexual male IRL has zip, zilch, nada to do with how I play a video game. And assuming it has anything to do with anyway another does is pure projection.

We are all merely the products of a combination of our genes, our peers, our situations, and random chance.  Your status as a heterosexual male most certainly DOES have a result on how you play video games.  Every little bit of your personality, that included, adds bias.

I agree it's probably not predictable, however, without combining it with your entire life story.

Care to write up an autobiography so we can properly deconstruct your biases? *

2) Actually, Leliana was tortured if you bothered to learn about her past. And it made a difference in how she sees things. But unlike Zev, who uses it as a defense for cruelty, Lel used it to become a better person. Hmm...interesting that. Note here, my female PC romanced Zev, so I'm not a Zev-hater at all. He's funny and charming in his way. But using his poor, lamented lifestyle...which he didn't lament one bit, in truth, other than not being able to call the shots...is a poor, factually bankrupt argument.

This point is so invalid it hurts.

Zevran was tortured as a child to train him to be a crow.  He was tortured to force him to learn to kill.

Leliana was tortured AFTER she had already learned her skills as punishment for Marjolaine's betrayal.

There is literally no comparison here in how their torture affected them.

3) It's natural seeing Marj again wouls stir up feelings in Lel she wanted buried. But there was much about a bard's life to enjoy. And umm...Zev goes on and on about how he wants to remain an assassin. So his "laments," again, are the lack of control, not the profession.

And his regrets over the assassin he loved, and his attempt to commit suicide over allowing her to die.

Again, your point is invalid, but for entirely different reasons.

people who don't like Zev typically don't have an issue with his sexuality. But rather the fact that he has already tried to KILL the PC and can very easily choose to do so a second time,

See, I see where you're going here, but the fact of the matter is that homophobia runs goddamn RAMPANT in english speaking countries, so unless you're going to go and give a battery of psychological tests to everyone whom doesn't like Zevran to see how opposed they are to a little backdoor action, I don't think you're qualified to make this claim.

Especially considering:

And calling all straights 'homophobes' is nonsense anyway. I can disagree with a lifestyle without being 'afraid' of it. And claiming that one can't is nothing but a smear tactic that says more about the fears of the person using it than the target.)

Sounds like you're admitting you don't like the gay.


*Disclaimer: I'm just messing with you in this section.  It's a quasi-intellectual joke.  Don't get bent out of shape over it.

Modifié par krylo, 26 février 2010 - 10:52 .

[krylo]

Maria Caliban wrote...

krylo wrote...

And arm chair intellectuals with too much time on their hands and a slight case of insomnia.

Warm milk helps.

Yeah, at this point though I may as well just stay up five more hours and go to bed at ten.

[AndreaDraco]

Maria Caliban wrote...
He was so bad. Apparently, he never bought Dragon Age though, because when all the 'you must register' threads popped up, he disappeared. I still see him in the ME forums though.
 

Typical. Well, he isn't missed. And since I only got ME2 yesterday I haven't had the pleasure to see him again

[RangerSG]

krylo,



Sounds to me like you assumed my argument. No, I *did* like Zevren when my female mage romanced him. And most of my other characters enjoy bantering with him even if they choose other relationship partners. So *assuming* someone else's position makes for a rubbish argument. Please try again by actually taking what I said seriously instead of assuming you can read my mind through a monitor. Which you failed at.



And no, the point of comparison *is* valid. Zev doesn't hate his lifestyle. He hates losing control in it.Lel hates much about her former life (unless you harden her, but that's a different discussion...even then, she doesn't want to go ALL the way back).



And again we assume that "everyone must be afraid of what we disagree with." No. That's a load of rubbish. Usually brought on by projection. I have no "fear" of homosexuality, IRL. I just don't want that lifestyle. "Fear" really comes from those on the other side who are insistent that Christians want to impose some "V for Vendetta"-style Theocracy on Western society. Which is also rubbish, most of us would be just plain peachy living under a Libertarian Republic, thank you.



And once again I would add, how I view things IRL has zip, zilch, nada with what I do in a video game. I've played homosexual and bisexual PCs before. I play a PC based on the concept I have for him or her. Not on my RL views--which mean NOTHING in this discussion.

[krylo]

RangerSG wrote...

krylo,

Sounds to me like you assumed my argument. No, I *did* like Zevren when my female mage romanced him. And most of my other characters enjoy bantering with him even if they choose other relationship partners. So *assuming* someone else's position makes for a rubbish argument. Please try again by actually taking what I said seriously instead of assuming you can read my mind through a monitor. Which you failed at.

[...]

And once again I would add, how I view things IRL has zip, zilch, nada
with what I do in a video game. I've played homosexual and bisexual PCs
before. I play a PC based on the concept I have for him or her. Not on
my RL views--which mean NOTHING in this discussion.

Quasi-intellectual joke.

I knew you'd take it too seriously, that's why I put the disclaimer there.

And no, the point of comparison *is* valid. Zev doesn't hate his lifestyle. He hates losing control in it.Lel hates much about her former life (unless you harden her, but that's a different discussion...even then, she doesn't want to go ALL the way back).

She comes to you worried because she still enjoys it, because she wants to kill marjolaine OR enjoyed killing her, depending on what path you let her take there.  She admits that she loved it.  The only reason she seems to hate her former life is due to 2 years in the chantry, but she loved it THEN.

The comparison is invalid.

And the torture one even more so.

[Sabriana]

Oh, I_B. I have nothing against her. But that is meta-gaming, more or less. She seriously creeps me out, and in turn, my PC.

I have nothing against Leliana. But she is a killer. She's had two years to reflect. That's a long time.

[Helios969]

Sabriana wrote...


@ Caliban
No, it's not a war. You are the one turning it into one. I genuinely want to know why Leliana it so easily forgiven for the same 'crimes' that another NPC is not.

You are turning it into a Zevran vs Leliane thing. You are derailing my thread. If you want a Zevran vs Leliana discussion open your own. You don't seem to have problems with that.

It seems to me you started the whole thread by running off in huff from the Justifying Zevran one and proceeded to turn it into a bashing Leliana session simply because someone dained to criticize your fictional romantic lover.  You couldn't even be bothered to think up an original title.   It was a direct response to that other thread.  Your motives are quite transparent. 

[Sabriana]

Sabriana wrote...

Oh, I_B. I have nothing against her. But that is meta-gaming, more or less. She seriously creeps me out, and in turn, my PC.
I have nothing against Leliana. But she is a killer. She's had two years to reflect. That's a long time.

I do want to keep any referrence about ME out of this thread. This is solely about DragonAge.

[AndreaDraco]

Sabriana already stated that she opened up the thread to stir the discussion about: if Zevran is so hated, why Leliana is not? This is a legitimate discussione. You may or may not believe her motives, but the discussion is legitimate nonetheless.

[Sabriana]

Helios969 wrote...

Sabriana wrote...


@ Caliban
No, it's not a war. You are the one turning it into one. I genuinely want to know why Leliana it so easily forgiven for the same 'crimes' that another NPC is not.

You are turning it into a Zevran vs Leliane thing. You are derailing my thread. If you want a Zevran vs Leliana discussion open your own. You don't seem to have problems with that.

It seems to me you started the whole thread by running off in huff from the Justifying Zevran one and proceeded to turn it into a bashing Leliana session simply because someone dained to criticize your fictional romantic lover.  You couldn't even be bothered to think up an original title.   It was a direct response to that other thread.  Your motives are quite transparent. 

I do recom
end reading the whole of it, Helios. Just saying.

[ejoslin]

One thing I have gotten from this thread, seriously, is Leliana has people who love her just as much as those of us who love Zevran. Truly amazing work. I'm stunned and impressed AND happy at the emotion behind all this.

Modifié par ejoslin, 26 février 2010 - 11:23 .