766 réponses à ce sujet

[ejoslin]

Does Leliana say to someone who's romancing her that one of her tricks is learning what type of woman her mark wants, and becoming that woman? She says it when not romanced.

[Helios969]

ejoslin wrote...

Helio969 (/wave -- how are you?), I think the difference is, while the other characters may be metaphorically slaves, Zevran is actually a slave. Bought for 3 gold. His escape is death, or, if he gets really lucky, the one person who can keep the Crows away from him.

I'm sorry, I just do not see the difference.  While I agree Zevran is the most extreme and overt example, he still has the choice to leave.  It might result in his death, but a choice nonetheless.

Think about the perpetual violence in Liberia or Angola.  Are we sympathetic to the brutal gangs of men who go around cutting women's breasts off or arms?  Gang raping them?  Those people were raised like that - they are/were just as much slaves as Zevran.

What does /wave mean?

Modifié par Helios969, 27 février 2010 - 12:41 .

[ejoslin]

Helios969 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Helio969 (/wave -- how are you?), I think the difference is, while the other characters may be metaphorically slaves, Zevran is actually a slave. Bought for 3 gold. His escape is death, or, if he gets really lucky, the one person who can keep the Crows away from him.

I'm sorry, I just do not see the difference.  While I agree Zevran's is the most extreme and overt example, he still has the choice to leave.  It might result in his death, but a choice nonetheless.

Think about the perpetual violence in Liberia or Angola.  Are we sympathetic to the brutal gangs of men who go around cutting women's breasts off or arms?  Gang raping them?  Those people were raised like that - they are/were just as much slaves as Zevran.

What does /wave mean?

I'm waving hello.  My days of playing MMOs shows when I do that.

And I think you're going far more extreme than anything that is even implied in the game.  But say you meet one of those people, learn that they themselves find what is going on repugnant, and want to reform and then help fight against an even greater evil.  The compare that to someone who chooses, as an adult, to join one of those gangs because she's in love with someone high up in that society.  Then leaves, not because she feels it's wrong, but because she becomes the target of the person she loves and is tortured by said gang.  

Edit: I think both are horrific situations, but I think one did have FAR more choice than the other.

Also, keep in mind that the Crows way of killing deserters is NOT a clean kill.  I think the word used by Zevran is gruesomely.  Morrigan says to Zevran that she doesn't believe he won't try to kill them because of what the crows will do to him if he doesn't -- she says, the woman who disapproves strongly if you say it to her -- that there are fates worse than death.

Modifié par ejoslin, 27 février 2010 - 12:57 .

[Sabriana]

Helios, it not only might, it will result in his death. Failing the Crows means death, and not only Zevran, but other sources make that quite clear.



Leliana choosing not to listen to her heart will not have someone come after her and kill her.



That's not to say that Majorlaine wasn't/isn't a prime manipulator, but Leliana did get away from the Orlesian prison and Majorlaine in the end. Majorlaine even knew where Leliana hung out, but did nothing. Only after leaving the Chantry does Majorlaine spring into action.

[Sabriana]

Stuffy38 wrote...

Sabriana's no troll. And Leliana has nicer boobs than Zev, so .. umm. That's my argument.

Thanks Stuffy.

Hehe, I read boobs as boots on first glance. Now there's a thing they have in common. Zevran loves his Antivan boots, and Leliana loves her Antivan shoes. The blue ones, the ones my PC buys from the ever-present roaming dwarven merchant.

[Helios969]

ejoslin wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Helio969 (/wave -- how are you?), I think the difference is, while the other characters may be metaphorically slaves, Zevran is actually a slave. Bought for 3 gold. His escape is death, or, if he gets really lucky, the one person who can keep the Crows away from him.

I'm sorry, I just do not see the difference.  While I agree Zevran's is the most extreme and overt example, he still has the choice to leave.  It might result in his death, but a choice nonetheless.

Think about the perpetual violence in Liberia or Angola.  Are we sympathetic to the brutal gangs of men who go around cutting women's breasts off or arms?  Gang raping them?  Those people were raised like that - they are/were just as much slaves as Zevran.

What does /wave mean?

I'm waving hello.  My days of playing MMOs shows when I do that.

And I think you're going far more extreme than anything that is even implied in the game.  But say you meet one of those people, learn that they themselves find what is going on repugnant, and want to reform and then help fight against an even greater evil.  The compare that to someone who chooses, as an adult, to join one of those gangs because she's in love with someone high up in that society.  Then leaves, not because she feels it's wrong, but because she becomes the target of the person she loves and is tortured by said gang. 

Edit: I think both are horrific situations, but I think one is worse than the other.

Also, keep in mind that the Crows way of killing deserters is NOT a clean kill.  I think the word used by Zevran is gruesomely.  Morrigan says to Zevran that she doesn't believe he won't try to kill them because of what the crows will do to him if he doesn't -- she says, the woman who disapproves strongly if you say it to her -- that there are fates worse than death.

Gotcha.  On both accounts.  (/wave right back at you:)

Keep in mind I am not arguing against Zevran's capacity for redemption, only that slavery is as much a state of mind (perhaps more so) as a physical one.  Aside with the struggling with Zevran disapproves -7, -4 ... the difficulty for me playing Zevran has always been more about him coming so late to my party, (like half the quests are done.)  And since I don't find him terribly compelling, I'm frankly much too lazy to put the effort in.

[Sabriana]

I'm a man? Or are you talking to someone else?

I have no issues with sexuality. Her sexuality makes no difference to me. It's not even an issue, other than many men having issues with Zevran because of *his* sexuality.

Most men have little problem with Leliana being bi, as far as I can tell from reading numerous threads. None whatsoever. Zevran is treated far more unkind, even though his romance can be turned off for good right off the bat. Leliana has that little 'ninja' loving going. But that's because the pixel toon is glitched, so it's not really her fault.

[Helios969]

Maviarab wrote...

I'm happy to do an analytical breakdown if you like lmao....but seriously....they are no different, its convenient its the bi-sexual woman most men like you have issues with...

Trust me, it reveals a lot about ones personality.

I've been saying that all along.  That's just human nature.  And trust me when I say it's not just heterosexuals that think like that.  I know a great deal of gay women that would shutter at the thought of a man entering them.  And I'm sure there are heterosexual women that feel the same.  It seems to me that at least some of the women that outright despise Leliana, do so for that reason.  Whether they are willing to admit so or not.

[Sabriana]

I really doubt that, Helios. I've read many posts from women who romanced Leliana, or Leliana and Zevran, or all three (Alistair, Leliana, Zevran). And I mean they played a femWarden at the time.

Some women might, as might some men, but I do firmly believe that they are the tiniest of minorities here.

[earl of the north]

Leliana is seeking redemption for her past acts and is therefore viewed more kindly than a mass murdering unrepentant assassin who can make two attempts to kill the MC......the fact that shes a cute red headed bi sexual girl helps a lot as well.



Zehran is a unrepentant killer, on my last playthrough he returned to the Crows after the MC's death, butchered the leadership and took over the Crows.....he had a terrible childhood, but eventually you have to look past that to the man he is now. A mass murder who enjoys his work, his only redeeming feature is he is now working for the good guys.

[The_Abyss]

I have a vast fascination with eating Schmooples. If I could I'd like to get my PC and orghren and we'll go roast some tastey nug.



Not that I hate leliana, but who runs around with, as oghren puts it, a walking snack?

[Helios969]

Sabriana wrote...

I really doubt that, Helios. I've read many posts from women who romanced Leliana, or Leliana and Zevran, or all three (Alistair, Leliana, Zevran). And I mean they played a femWarden at the time.
Some women might, as might some men, but I do firmly believe that they are the tiniest of minorities here.

Well at my sister's gatherings (she is gay) I have actually teased a few that I was friendly with on precisely what I suggested.  And I could see the revulsion on their faces.  I did it with one gay guy that I recall (a woman rubbing her crotch all over him) and got the same response.

The more important question is why do you or anyone else care how I play the game?  If I don't want to have man-on-man sex, why does that matter?  Besides, that's not a prerequisite to have Zev in your party.

I also believe that if I had gotten Zev in Lothering and Leliana half way through the game, the result would be inverted, (minus the sex part.)

[Sabriana]

Yes, you must be right. You do know me quite well, after all, why, there is no one on earth who knows me better or longer than you, right? Who am I to call all your "facts" opinions, conjecture, and outright closed-mindedness.

Carry on.

Flame rejected.

@ Helios
How you play your game is entirely up to you. What we do on these forums is disecting the pixel folk. Of course your own experiences color your outlook, that's entirely natural. In my country, sex is viewed as human nature. Our video-games get censored for violence, the sex is a-okay, and that's my opinion as well. Umfeld colors outlook, naturally.

I am a hetero female, and I don't romance Leliana. I like Morrigan very much, and if she were the bi choice, I'd still be only her friend.

However, my femWardens all romance the *other* bi character, namely Zevran. It would be strange if someone tried to make a case for me being biased pertaining sexual orientation for females only. It makes little sense, even a person with a rock for a brain could see that.

Zevran is not a cold-hearted killer, he has many regrets, and he pleads for the lives of more than one group in-game. Yes, I agree, if the player had the chance to get to know him earlier, this would most likely come to light. Leliana's sexuality has nothing to do with my being creeped out by her. I am naturally suspicious of overly religious types anyway, and criminals who hide in religious houses always raise my eyebrow. She became a criminal for the love of a person, (who happens to be a woman in this case), not because she had no choice.

@Whoever posted about Zevran's epilogue
The Crows go after him, and he decides to take the fight to them. He fights back, gets readmitted, and climbs to the leadership position.

Slaves have no choices, period. A slave to an assassin guilt better think twice before trying to bolt. Other than that, I tire of repeating myself. The Crows are not a benevolent association, they are trained assassins - all of them.

Modifié par Sabriana, 27 février 2010 - 01:53 .

[Helios969]

Maviarab wrote...

But most of us here dont have any issues unlike yourself with the characters backgrounds.

You answered my question perfectly with your very defensive reply mate, why so much care for Zev, when in reality (if this was real) he is just as much as a cold hearted *** as leliana is...

Again, like I say, its interesting its the gorgeous, bi-sexual free willed woman you seem to have an intense dislike for...

All i'm saying, and Im not the only one to see it....

Edit:

If you would like a futher conformation of this, you have been hypocritical yourself about both of them...mixed emotions perhaps?

Helios, it not only might, it will result in his death. Failing the Crows means death, and not only Zevran, but other sources make that quite clear.

Leliana choosing not to listen to her heart will not have someone come after her and kill her.

That's not to say that Majorlaine wasn't/isn't a prime manipulator, but Leliana did get away from the Orlesian prison and Majorlaine in the end. Majorlaine even knew where Leliana hung out, but did nothing. Only after leaving the Chantry does Majorlaine spring into action.

Firstly, depending on how good he is at his job, it does not mean certain death.

As for Leliana, maybe perhaps she only thought she enjoed the seducing and the hunts because thats what Marjolaine wanted her to believe. Trust me (and you obviously have never experienced this), when your so truly and blindly in love, you will believe anything.

Interesting then that after she 'broke free' from Marjolaine, she didnt carry on with her life, she chose to do something different....does that not tell you something about her?

To a large extent, its pointless trying to explain to you, as you very do much have it in for Leliana, and sorry, but her gender and sexuality can be the only real reasons for it. Zevran (if this was real) if by far the more evil character (and if you paid attention rather than looking into his doe eyes) he also tells you he took great pleasure in what he did. So much for the sorry slave boy who was forced into his life eh?

Who is this in response to?  Me or the OP?

[ejoslin]

Zevran becomes available after the first treaty quest is done. You also get the cut scene after doing either the redcliff arc without the circle quest, and after doing the ashes quest.

What I think Sabriana is tired of is posts like Earl of the North's above, when you have two characters with the same basic background, only one had it by choice the other as a slave, both seeking the same redemption (though admittedly, after 2 years in the chantry, Leliana is further down that road), and it's a reasonable discussion to have. Comparing and contrasting them is fun. Awhile ago I started a thread regarding Alistair Vs Zevran as a romance partner, and that stayed very reasonable. There's no reason to think that Leliana Vs Zevran and their assassin ways can't be as well.

Just like I sometimes romance Alistair on my characters (who frankly, while a fantastic character, and a compelling romance, is not my type at all), I often romance Leliana as well. Of course, THAT isn't always by choice *grin* Though actually, Dialog Tweaks has fixed the ninja love problem for me.

And earl of the north -- yes, Zevran's ending is bad if you do the US. It's even worse if he's romanced, because you see how broken he becomes by the warden's death (what a difference a sentence can make in an epilogue card). I think it's best to either kill him or to set him free if you're planning on doing that (you have a couple of opportunities to set him free which don't require killing him). I think Leliana returning to Orlais is also pretty bad (though that is only one of her possible endings if doing the US).

Modifié par ejoslin, 27 février 2010 - 01:50 .

[Jewsapalewsa]

Helios969 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Helio969 (/wave -- how are you?), I think the difference is, while the other characters may be metaphorically slaves, Zevran is actually a slave. Bought for 3 gold. His escape is death, or, if he gets really lucky, the one person who can keep the Crows away from him.

I'm sorry, I just do not see the difference.  While I agree Zevran is the most extreme and overt example, he still has the choice to leave.  It might result in his death, but a choice nonetheless.

Think about the perpetual violence in Liberia or Angola.  Are we sympathetic to the brutal gangs of men who go around cutting women's breasts off or arms?  Gang raping them?  Those people were raised like that - they are/were just as much slaves as Zevran.

What does /wave mean?

Right on dude.  This is absolutly correct.  You can only get so far with the "I was raised that way" card. 

[Helios969]

Sabriana wrote...

Slaves have no choices, period. A slave to an assassin guilt better think twice before trying to bolt. Other than that, I tire of repeating myself. The Crows are not a benevolent association, they are trained assassins - all of them.

Death is a choice.  Not the ideal one, but one nonetheless.

There is one game experience I'd like to share that you may have not come across.  It happened when I stuck my dagger in the back of Genitivi's head (gruesome I know.)  Leliana freaked and responded "Are you insane?!"  No other party member said a thing.  Not even sweet, lovable Alistair.  This is not the response of a cold-blooded killer.  I'm gonna try it again with Zevran, but my guess is he will say nothing.

Now I'm not suggesting this makes Leliana better or Zev worse, only that her redemption is more than an act, (as some Leli-haters have suggested.)

[ejoslin]

Alistair comments if Leliana isn't in the party -- he's actually pretty annoyed. And no, Zevran says nothing. 

Edit: Zevran has sympathy for groups, not for individuals.  It's an interesting thing to watch him plea for the lives of the mages and for the dalish elves and for the alienage elves (well, with the alienage elves being sold into slavery, you can hear the anger, whereas the other two, he's begging).

Second edit: And actually, I can think of what seems to be sympathy towards individuals as well though others may disagree.  Ruck comes to mind, especially if you don't have Oghren in your party.

Modifié par ejoslin, 27 février 2010 - 02:13 .

[Jewsapalewsa]

Sabriana wrote...


However, my femWardens all romance the *other* bi character, namely Zevran. It would be strange if someone tried to make a case for me being biased pertaining sexual orientation for females only. It makes little sense, even a person with a rock for a brain could see that.

Not a very sound arguement. Many people are okay with one sex being ****** and not okay with the other being ******.  I for on, kinda fit into this catagory because I think two chicks kissing is HOT, but I literally get nausious when I see dudes kiss.

Don't get me wrong, I don't hate gays, I'm cool with them, as long as I don't have to watch.  

Some people take this to the other extreme and go crazy for lesbians, but HATE gay guys.  Many people in fact.

By the way, your "Flame Rejected" post made me giggle.  You really do know how to keep your cool.  

[Helios969]

Jewsapalewsa wrote...

Sabriana wrote...


However, my femWardens all romance the *other* bi character, namely Zevran. It would be strange if someone tried to make a case for me being biased pertaining sexual orientation for females only. It makes little sense, even a person with a rock for a brain could see that.

Not a very sound arguement. Many people are okay with one sex being ****** and not okay with the other being ******.  I for on, kinda fit into this catagory because I think two chicks kissing is HOT, but I literally get nausious when I see dudes kiss.

Don't get me wrong, I don't hate gays, I'm cool with them, as long as I don't have to watch.  

Some people take this to the other extreme and go crazy for lesbians, but HATE gay guys.  Many people in fact.

Exactly right from the male perspective.  The reverse is true too.  I know hetero women who think two guys going at it is hot - and think about getting sandwiched between just like I want to be smothered by two women.

[Helios969]

ejoslin wrote...

Second edit: And actually, I can think of what seems to be sympathy towards individuals as well though others may disagree.  Ruck comes to mind, especially if you don't have Oghren in your party.

Yeah, Ruck's story was so sad.  I truly felt bad for him.  Too bad the writers didn't make a side quest to "save" him.

[Sabriana]

Ruck freaked my PC out with his "I see the dark in you". One of the saddest NPCs in game, right up there with Amethyne. My HNF liked her mother, and she couldn't help the little one. Another quest that I wish we had.



Anyway, that might be true about m/m vs f/f. I've never thought of that, mostly because I don't believe in meddling in other people's bedroom affairs. As long as no living being is hurt physically or psychologically (unless it's consensual between adults who have the mental powers to differentiate and think logically), I couldn't care less.

Perhaps that's why Zevran is getting so much flak from the men, because chick on chick is viewed as hawt.

That Leliana's heart is in the right place is shown throughout the early game. She feels with the refugees and for Kaitlyn. Her comment "Undead? Do you think it's something in the water?" made me laugh at my monitor. However, that doesn't change her past, and when hardened, that past comes back bigger than life. I like the other Leliana better, so no more hardening for you, Lel.

Zevran just started a new path, Leliana has a 2 year head start on him.

And Helios, if you bother to befriend him, you will find out that yes, death was his only choice, and more-over, he chose it. I don't want to spoil it for you, but that is essentially his motivation.



And thank you, Jewsapalewsa