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[phiont]

At the end of the "Dossier: The Assassin" mission during the sequence of cutscenes with Nassana Dantius, Thane Krios and then Jacob back on the Normandy, Shepard is awarded at least 25 renegade points regardless of which dialogue choices are made.

The following image shows a comparison of Shepards renegade indicators before (lower) and after (upper) those cutscenes:



In this case, Shepard selected all the paragon or neutral dialgue options available. Furthermore, a +2 paragon award and no renegade award appeared at the end of the cutscenes.

Having already seen several unexplained and unavoidable +5 renegade awards appear I've long ago given up building a purely paragon Shep in ME2.  However, a stealthy increase of >25 points raises the severity of this bug to a level worth reporting.

Modifié par phiont, 26 février 2010 - 09:28 .

[Tleining]

hm, let's see, you know that an assassin is after nassana, and even knowing that, you do nothing to stop him, and afterwards, instead of giving him to the authorities, you ask him to join you. I wonder why something like that would reward renegade points.

note: you don't have to recruit him, it is your choice. But this game was supposed to be darker than ME1, so no matter what, you will have to make some hard choices (like setting the prisoners free), it is part of the game.

[phiont]

Tleining wrote...

hm, let's see, you know that an assassin is after nassana, and even knowing that, you do nothing to stop him, and afterwards, instead of giving him to the authorities, you ask him to join you. I wonder why something like that would reward renegade points.
note: you don't have to recruit him, it is your choice. But this game was supposed to be darker than ME1, so no matter what, you will have to make some hard choices (like setting the prisoners free), it is part of the game.

Have you ever managed not to recruit Jack?  My level 13 Shep completed every available assignment and mission except for "Stop the Collectors" and "Dossier: The Convict."  Unfortunately, there was no message from Illusive Man about Horizon until after Jack was recruited.  And once you've been forced onto Purgatory station have you ever simply tried to return to the Normandy instead of setting the prisoners free?  Sorry, that's not an option either.  I preferred it when Mass Effect was about Shepard's paragon/renegade score resulting from the player's choices rather than the game designer's choices.

But that's all beside the point.

Regardless of how many unavoidable points were added to whichever alignment, the problem is that the player is not made aware of them.  You don't even get to find out about those stealth consequences in the same way as most other consequences are reported.

Also, if the mere act of setting out to recruit a known assassin is what earns a few dozen unseen renegade points then perhaps they should be awarded as soon as Shep accepts a ride from Seryna to the Dantius Towers instead of at the close of the mission.  Surely the act of recruiting such a villain can't be much worse than the intent.  (Btw, if you had an option to turn Thane over to the authorities then we must be playing different games.)

[Tleining]

you missed my points. This game is darker than the last one, so some decisions are forced on you. Like setting the prisoners free. You need Jack (biotic? for the last mission?) in order to complete your mission. Towards that end, you have to free the prisoners (renegade choice).

The same for Thane, you don't get the option to give him to the authorities, because you traveled to the tower in order to recruit him. Again, the end justifys the means.

The fact that renegade/paragon points are rewarded at the end of the mission is a game mechanic (see mordins recruitment mission, if you loot the apartments, you get renegade points). I don't mind it, and i'm not trying to convince you to like it. But instead of blaming the game designers for that, you might want to think about what kind of game you are playing. In ME2 you are working with a known terrorist group. Yes you don't have another choice, but that is the point. The world isn't just black and white (garrus loyalty mission), and at the end of the game the same will be true for Shepard.

[phiont]

Tleining, I posted this thread because I think that changing Shepard's alignment score by a very large number of points without making the player aware of the award is a bug.  I gave the Dantius Towers mission as an example because the awarding of a large number of renegade points at the end of that mission is hidden from the player.  If hiding a point award in once case and showing it in another is not a bug then it is an irritating inconsistency in the game system resulting from poor design.  But for now I'm quite content to give Bioware the benefit of the doubt and call it a bug.

I appreciate the points you have made, but they do not address this issue of hidden vs shown alignment awards.  I'm pleased to go a bit off-topic and discuss your thoughts on the darker nature of ME2, but I'd hope to get some feedback on the main issue as well.

This game is darker than the last one, so some decisions are forced on you.

No problem as long as those forced decisions don't precipitate forced alignment changes.   As I said, I'd prefer if Shepard's alignment score continued to reflect the decisions of the player and not the designer. 

You need Jack (biotic? for the last mission?) in order to complete your mission.

Samara/Morinth works just as well as Jack.

The fact that renegade/paragon points are rewarded at the end of the mission is a game mechanic (see mordins recruitment mission, if you loot the apartments, you get renegade points).

If it's a game mechanic then why aren't all alignment points awarded at the end of a mission.  Would be great...  or at least it would be consistent like a game mechanic should be.  Instead, Shep is condemned for looting Omega's slums, but soon after forgiven for taking 4000 credits from poor Garrus' safe.  Inconsistent design if not a bug.