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So is Alpha Protocol going to be the next big RPG after DA:Awakening?


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#26
MerinTB

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*ahem*

I'm not sure how many of you know this (maybe all of you commenting do know and you just don't care) but Obsidian is, more or less, Black Isle Studios.
Feargus Urquhart founded Black Isle, and Feargus Urquhart is one of the founders of Obsidian. Other founders of Obsidian are: Chris Parker, Chris Jones, Chris Avellone and Darren Monahan - all veterans from Interplay/Black Isle.
Black Isle made Icewind Dale, Planescape, Fallout... you get the picture.
Urquhart produced Shattered Steel, Bioware's first game.
Black Isle (IMO) >= Bioware.

Interplay was folding it's RPG division, there were concerns amongst Black Isle employees about not getting their pay, so Obsidian was formed. Short the people who left for Troika, Obsidian is most of the big names from Black Isle. Heck, even some of the Troika people came to Obsidian (at least for a while) - for example the lead writer for Bloodlines, Mitsoda, worked on Alpha Protocol.

You want some history on Obsidian, IGN has a good article -
http://pc.ign.com/ar...4/684902p1.html

Finally - there's all this bashing of KotOR II, but at the time it was very well received by critics and fans. It STILL has a very healthy metacritic score.

While I have no real expectations of InXile, despite the pedigree of many of the people there, I do trust Obsidian almost solely for who it's comprised of.

Modifié par MerinTB, 27 février 2010 - 08:27 .


#27
Fraevar

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MerinTB wrote...

Interplay was folding it's RPG division, there were concerns amongst Black Isle employees about not getting their pay, so Obsidian was formed. Short the people who left for Troika, Obsidian is most of the big names from Black Isle. Heck, even some of the Troika people came to Obsidian (at least for a while) - for example the lead writer for Bloodlines, Mitsoda, worked on Alpha Protocol.

You want some history on Obsidian, IGN has a good article -
http://pc.ign.com/ar...4/684902p1.html

Finally - there's all this bashing of KotOR II, but at the time it was very well received by critics and fans. It STILL has a very healthy metacritic score.

While I have no real expectations of InXile, despite the pedigree of many of the people there, I do trust Obsidian almost solely for who it's comprised of.


I think the critisism stems from the fact that Obsidian actually haven't managed to release a game that really feels complete in the studio's history. Yes, they did a lot of stuff when they were Black Isle - doesn't matter, whatever people they had for their project management back then obviously haven't followed over to Obsidian. KotOR 2 was a horrible mess in places, and yeah the deadline was ridiculous, but then NWN2 comes along and suffers from many of the same problems in spite of getting a dev cycle of two years and more.

Plus, Obsidian really have a problem when it comes to some aspects like romances. KotOR 2 didn't have any where the player could actually participate - NWN2's came out of nowhere as both NPCs would refuse talking to you up until The Event™. Can't speak for the NWN2 expansions as, quite frankly, I considered myself done with Obsidian after NWN2.  They seem to actually get good ideas, occasionally, but based on their history *as Obsidian Entertainment* they've lost the ability to actually implement them into  satisfactory gamedesign. 

#28
Giantevilhead

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MerinTB wrote...

*ahem*

I'm not sure how many of
you know this (maybe all of you commenting do know and you just don't
care) but Obsidian is, more or less, Black Isle Studios.
Feargus
Urquhart founded Black Isle, and Feargus Urquhart is one of the
founders of Obsidian. Other founders of Obsidian are: Chris Parker,
Chris Jones, Chris Avellone and Darren Monahan - all veterans from
Interplay/Black Isle.
Black Isle made Icewind Dale, Planescape, Fallout... you get the picture.
Urquhart produced Shattered Steel, Bioware's first game.
Black Isle (IMO) >= Bioware.

Interplay
was folding it's RPG division, there were concerns amongst Black Isle
employees about not getting their pay, so Obsidian was formed. Short
the people who left for Troika, Obsidian is most of the big names from
Black Isle. Heck, even some of the Troika people came to Obsidian (at
least for a while) - for example the lead writer for Bloodlines,
Mitsoda, worked on Alpha Protocol.

You want some history on Obsidian, IGN has a good article -
http://pc.ign.com/ar...4/684902p1.html

Finally
- there's all this bashing of KotOR II, but at the time it was very
well received by critics and fans. It STILL has a very healthy
metacritic score.

While I have no real expectations of InXile,
despite the pedigree of many of the people there, I do trust Obsidian
almost solely for who it's comprised of.


But Bioware has much more freedom to do what they want. Even EA isn't meddling too much with Bioware.

Troika failed because it got screwed by all its publishers, all their games got rushed and released before they were complete. Obsidian hasn't had an easy time with Lucas Arts and Atari either. Sega seems to be better but we don't know about Bethesda or what their future partners will be like. Obsidian may very well end up like Troika.

Modifié par Giantevilhead, 27 février 2010 - 09:55 .


#29
Giantevilhead

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Delerius_Jedi wrote...
I think the critisism stems from the fact that Obsidian actually haven't managed to release a game that really feels complete in the studio's history. Yes, they did a lot of stuff when they were Black Isle - doesn't matter, whatever people they had for their project management back then obviously haven't followed over to Obsidian. KotOR 2 was a horrible mess in places, and yeah the deadline was ridiculous, but then NWN2 comes along and suffers from many of the same problems in spite of getting a dev cycle of two years and more.

Plus, Obsidian really have a problem when it comes to some aspects like romances. KotOR 2 didn't have any where the player could actually participate - NWN2's came out of nowhere as both NPCs would refuse talking to you up until The Event™. Can't speak for the NWN2 expansions as, quite frankly, I considered myself done with Obsidian after NWN2.  They seem to actually get good ideas, occasionally, but based on their history *as Obsidian Entertainment* they've lost the ability to actually implement them into  satisfactory gamedesign. 


The first NWN was in development for 5 years and I don't know if you got it when it came out but it was buggy as hell. NWN2 was in development for about two years and two months and Atari released it before it was ready. Compare that to close to 4 years it took to develop The Witcher, which also used NWN's Aurora engine.

NWN2 only had two romance options, Casavir and Elanee. It wasn't a big part of the game. I don't see why it has to be included, the characters in Obsidian's games get plenty of development without it. Influence was a much bigger part of the game. If you didn't bother trying to gain the influence of characters then their development would obviously be limited. Characters didn't just spill their guts to you simply because they're in your party. You have to gain their trust in order to learn about them. That makes a lot more sense than how character relations develop in other games.

Modifié par Giantevilhead, 27 février 2010 - 09:56 .


#30
Fraevar

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Giantevilhead wrote...

The first NWN was in development for 5 years and I don't know if you got it when it came out but it was buggy as hell. NWN2 was in development for about two years and two months and Atari released it before it was ready. Compare that to close to 4 years it took to develop The Witcher, which also used NWN's Aurora engine.

NWN2 only had two romance options, Casavir and Elanee. It wasn't a big part of the game. I don't see why it has to be included, the characters in Obsidian's games get plenty of development without it. Influence was a much bigger part of the game. If you didn't bother trying to gain the influence of characters then their development would obviously be limited. Characters didn't just spill their guts to you simply because they're in your party. You have to gain their trust in order to learn about them. That makes a lot more sense than how character relations develop in other games.


Partial agreement. A lot of NWN's dev time went into the engine, and the same was true with The Witcher, as CD Projekt basically went back and rewrote it almost completely to support their gameplay. When NWN2 released their updated engine was horrible - the performance was terrible, in spite of making insane demands on hardware.

As for the influence system, I was never a fan. It's a good idea, in theory but again, I think it's just been implemented horribly. Especially in K2 where you will usually always find yourself in limbo with nothing to talk about because the game offered no chance of figuring out where they were. In the case of Casavir in NWN2, you could have him at nearly 100 influence and he still wouldn't talk to you until That Moment™. He spends the entire game being all stoic and distant, then comes the eve of battle and they pull a "Oh btw, I love you" out of the hat. 

 I was horrified when I learned Dragon Age: Origins would include a similar system but I have to say that BioWare managed to make it work, which is more than I can say for Obsidian. In DA:O it felt like an integral, natural part of the game whereas in K2 and NWN2 it just felt like an artificial block.

Modifié par Delerius_Jedi, 27 février 2010 - 10:11 .


#31
Seagloom

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flem1 wrote...

It wasn't about tearing down the wall, it was about the ridiculously lame lack of a fight.  Three (?) obviously rushed one-encounter areas = battle for heaven?  C'mon.

Obsidian has never had the project-management skills of Bioware.  I hope that's changed.


I would say their project management improved with MotB. They claimed to finish up the expansion's content months before release and spent the rest of their time bug crunching. If your issue isn't the ending or choices, but rather area design... then yes, I suppose they are weak there. You can see signs of it throughout the original OC. Neverwinter looked more like a toy city than an actual metropolis, for instance. But BioWare isn't perfect in that regard either. Dragon Age had plenty of uninspiring and oddly tiny areas. Denerim in particular was plain awful upon arrival and at the endgame.

I thought MotB's end areas were adequate, and honestly at that point I was too interested in what was transpiring to focus on whether or not my surroundings were designed to perfection.

Modifié par Seagloom, 27 février 2010 - 12:18 .


#32
Seagloom

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Delerius_Jedi wrote...

Plus, Obsidian really have a problem when it comes to some aspects like romances. KotOR 2 didn't have any where the player could actually participate - NWN2's came out of nowhere as both NPCs would refuse talking to you up until The Event™. Can't speak for the NWN2 expansions as, quite frankly, I considered myself done with Obsidian after NWN2.  They seem to actually get good ideas, occasionally, but based on their history *as Obsidian Entertainment* they've lost the ability to actually implement them into satisfactory gamedesign.



You know, I don't think they do. Obsidian has never tried to seriously write a romance. I'd have to dig it up in the bowels of the interwebs, but I distinctly remember an interview or perhaps a blog post where Avellone commented on romances in RPGs. It was obvious he held them in some contempt. He wasn't impressed with how they've been implemented so far. Moreover, it isn't the kind of content he enjoys writing. I'm no professional author, but I know that when my heart isn't in what I'm writing it turns out worse.

Avellone is more of a hatemance guy. He seems to prefer writing game romances that are subtle and end in tragedy if he must write them at all. He also mentioned some random game considerations which shows he thinks at least a bit like a designer while writing a character and not completely like an author.

Knowing that, it quickly becomes clear why the romances felt tacked on or understated. Planescape: Torment had romances... in that the Nameless One could forge a romantic link to Annah and Fall-from-Grace. It wasn't spelled out for the player until the very end. The cues were very subtle. It wasn't until he was about to be dragged to Baator after merging with the Transcendant One that his woman of choice bluntly expressed those feelings at all.

In KotOR2, judging from what was in the complete game and what was cut, it was definitely there. But again, not overt. I can't disagree on Casavir though. That guy had so much of content cut he may as well have been a zombie. Elanee on the other hand gives plenty of cues that she likes the player character, but doesn't come out and say anything until she thinks they all might well die. MotB had much more overt romance, but even then, it was ancillary to the whole soul eating curse thing. Much of it was subtext or small cues brought up by another party member.

To sum things up: I think Obsidian's fundamental issue with romance is that their main writers have a different way of going about it, and are not into writing them in the first place.

I can't entirely disagree with some of Avellone's criticisms either. I enjoyed BioWare's romances thus far, but they are, in many ways, quite hokey and on ocassion a bit forced. I think Dragon Age is the first BioWare game where not only the quality, but also the content and approach of their romances impressed me. I could go into that in further detail but this post is dragging on as is.

Modifié par Seagloom, 27 février 2010 - 12:09 .


#33
Leinadi

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Agree with the above post.



*Some Dragon Age spoilers*



I admit, I also have a hard time with the "everything ending with flowers" type of romances that Bioware has done. But I really enjoyed Morrigan's romance because she was a determined woman. She wasn't looking to settle down. She put her own needs (morbid as they are) first. I thought it was a great moment for her when she admits that she does care for you near the end of the game but she is still determined to carry through with her choice. I really liked that.



*End spoilers*



As for the influence system, never been a fan of it myself. But I think OEI managed to make it work well with MotB, plus the fact that the companions almost always had something new to say made it work a lot better. Dragon Age was also similar in that regard though I still don't like the idea of the gifts at all.



I do look forward to seeing the romances of Alpha Protocol, which is a first for me. I'm not really sure why that is, but I hope to see a less "lovey dovey" type of romance. More one of physical attraction, that may or may not lead to something more. I think that lends itself well to the real time setting and spy genre as well.



Overall, I do prefer Obsidian's games to Bioware's. But I'm the kind of guy who won't mind if a game is buggy (and honestly, I don't think Obsidian's games have been *that* buggy) if it's interesting to play. Bioware's games have an extremely high level of polish most of the time, but for me they never reach the level where I'm interested in the themes the game is exploring. They're good in a slightly Hollywoodized way, very gripping at parts but ultimately they don't move me much.

Parts of Dragon Age were different though, it's a great game. Bioware's best if you ask me.



Whereas Obsidian seems to explore either different and often more introverted themes in the story (KOTOR2 or MotB) or in terms of its gameplay (SoZ). In NWN2 OC, I felt they were just trying to be Bioware and it didn't work out well (some NPCs are good though, like Ammon Jerro).

They don't succeed in everything, not by a long shot. But, as with Troika, I'm more than willing to sit through that if the game explores interesting design concepts.

#34
SleeplessInSigil

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What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. ..but in the case of NEW VEGAS, the upcoming Fallout game from Obisidan will be this year's (and likely the next's) highlight on the WRPG side. ★

#35
Giantevilhead

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Leinadi wrote...
I do look forward to seeing the romances of Alpha Protocol, which is a first for me. I'm not really sure why that is, but I hope to see a less "lovey dovey" type of romance. More one of physical attraction, that may or may not lead to something more. I think that lends itself well to the real time setting and spy genre as well.


I doubt that there will be a real romance in Alpha Protocol. It'll be mostly lies and subterfuge. Seduction is a powerful tool for spies. I wouldn't be surprised if the "romances" are all "pump and dumps" where Thorton, or the person he's romancing, fakes a romance to gather intel or gain access to a target, and then leaves or eliminates the partner once they are no longer useful.

#36
Leinadi

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Sure, but I'd still call that romancing if there is actually attraction involved (and not just *purely* out of trying to use someone). Not in the Bioware sense, but nevertheless.



I think it'd be fun if some of the characters actually used the player character instead of vice versa, that'd be cool.

#37
Busomjack

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I hope there are romances in the game because it will make it feel more like a Bioware game.

#38
Gandalf-the-Fabulous

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Busomjack wrote...

I can't wait for Dragon Age Awakening but after I beat that game I'm wondering what will be the next great Bioware game to get?  

Dragon Age 2 and Mass Effect 3 are both over a year away.

Alpha Protocol is being developed by Obsidian and Obsidian and Bioware have worked together before so there games have a similar style.
Does anyone know if Alpha Protocol is going to have any gameplay similarities to other Bioware RPGs?  I'm hoping it will help fill the void as I eagerly await the next big Bioware game.


Dragon age 2? Do Bioware even have plans for a Dragon Age 2? If so would it follow on from the story of Dragon Age 1 or would it just be set in the same universe?

Somehow I dont think we will see a Dragon Age 2 anytime soon and I think it is even possible that we will see a sequel to Jade Empire before we see a sequel to Dragon Age.

Somehow I think Alpha Protocol is going to bomb, it wont necesarilly be terrible but it wont be that good either. The idea behind the game does intriuges me and I will probably pick up a copy to try it, but from what I have seen of the Trailers I really dont expect much from it.

Alpha Protocol looks to be just another mediocre game with wasted potential.

Modifié par Gandalf-the-Fabulous, 28 février 2010 - 06:25 .


#39
drhelio212

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Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Busomjack wrote...

I can't wait for Dragon Age Awakening but after I beat that game I'm wondering what will be the next great Bioware game to get?  

Dragon Age 2 and Mass Effect 3 are both over a year away.

Alpha Protocol is being developed by Obsidian and Obsidian and Bioware have worked together before so there games have a similar style.
Does anyone know if Alpha Protocol is going to have any gameplay similarities to other Bioware RPGs?  I'm hoping it will help fill the void as I eagerly await the next big Bioware game.


Dragon age 2? Do Bioware even have plans for a Dragon Age 2? If so would it follow on from the story of Dragon Age 1 or would it just be set in the same universe?

Somehow I dont think we will see a Dragon Age 2 anytime soon and I think it is even possible that we will see a sequel to Jade Empire before we see a sequel to Dragon Age.

Somehow I think Alpha Protocol is going to bomb, it wont necesarilly be terrible but it wont be that good either. The idea behind the game does intriuges me and I will probably pick up a copy to try it, but from what I have seen of the Trailers I really dont expect much from it.

Alpha Protocol looks to be just another mediocre game with wasted potential.


How so? Do you think that way from just the trailers alone? In fact, the trailers are all made from Sega's marketing department, which, I might add, is quite notorious for advertising a game in a less than satisfactory manner. I've watched OEI design the game for the past few years, and I am quite eagerly waiting to play it. I think this actually may be a very good title. Chris Avellone has put out quite a few blogs on some of the work that has gone into this game, and... well, many of his ideas and the design ideas of the team he talked about were interesting at the time. 

Guess I need to go back and read those blogs to figure out why I was excited, though... Darn Sega pushed the game back so far. Ugh. Oh, well. It'll soon be out.

#40
Seagloom

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Busomjack wrote...

I hope there are romances in the game because it will make it feel more like a Bioware game.


I sincerely hope not! Their storytelling approach is different, and I like that. I should clarify I wouldn't mind romances. I just don't want imitations of what BioWare does. Obsidian should do their own thing.

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Dragon age 2? Do Bioware even have plans for a Dragon Age 2? If so would it follow on from the story of Dragon Age 1 or would it just be set in the same universe?

Somehow I dont think we will see a Dragon Age 2 anytime soon and I think it is even possible that we will see a sequel to Jade Empire before we see a sequel to Dragon Age.


It was exposed months ago by accident in a BioWare dev's social networking account. I forget which one as I barely followed the story. Later on it was pretty much confirmed here that Dragon Age 2 was in the early stages of development. It may be quite awhile until we see it, but there *will* be a Dragon Age 2.

Modifié par Seagloom, 28 février 2010 - 09:13 .