Hello,
I was just wondering about the word "ser" used about knights and suchs. I'm currently reading A Song of Ice and Fire, and there they use it exclusively. And it appears that is the case with Dragon Age as well. Where is it from? Is it just the same as "sir"? Does it have a historical use? Is it just one of several things inspired by ASoIaF?
If someone has any insight into Ser, please share!
Thanks!
Sir Knight or Ser Knight?
Débuté par
Aurvan
, oct. 17 2009 12:58
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#2
Posté 17 octobre 2009 - 01:03
Murder Knife
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Hah, I was about to post about the same thing.
It might be equivalent to Sir, although I've seeen it used for females as well. More than that, I don't know.
It might be equivalent to Sir, although I've seeen it used for females as well. More than that, I don't know.
#3
Posté 17 octobre 2009 - 01:11
soteria
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In the audiobooks, it all sounds the same. /shrug
#4
Posté 17 octobre 2009 - 01:15
Inhuman one
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I believe sir applies to all nobility, and Lord only goes for nobility that owns land I believe. I dont know about ser though, isnt that an Australian accent?
#6
Posté 17 octobre 2009 - 01:58
Servant of Nature
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Ser is for those who have been knighted, I think. I don't recall 'sir' ever being used in any of the DA:O books, but I don't remember.
#7
Guest_RGC_Ines_*
Posté 17 octobre 2009 - 02:09
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On DA:O wiki there's that ser is a title for male or female knight of the realm. We have also Teyrns/Teyrna and ArlsArlessa between nobles. It's info from this site:
http://dragonage.wik.../wiki/Fereldans
http://dragonage.wik.../wiki/Fereldans
Modifié par RGC_Ines, 17 octobre 2009 - 02:31 .
#8
Posté 17 octobre 2009 - 02:18
solothores
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"Ser" is just a stylistic modification of "Sir", there is no specific historical use, it's just a simple way for a writer trying to give a familiar term an exotic sound.
Quoting Wiki:
Sir derives from the Middle French honorific title sire (messire gave 'mylord'), from the Old French sieur (itself a contraction of Seigneur meaning 'lord'), from the Latin adjective senior (elder), which yielded titles of respect in many European languages. The form sir is first documented in English in 1297, as title of honor of a knight or baronet, being a variant of sire, which was already used in English since at least c.1205 as a title placed before a name and denoting knighthood, and to address the (male) Sovereign since c.1225, with additional general senses of "father, male parent" is from c.1250 and "important elderly man" from 1362.
Quoting Wiki:
Sir derives from the Middle French honorific title sire (messire gave 'mylord'), from the Old French sieur (itself a contraction of Seigneur meaning 'lord'), from the Latin adjective senior (elder), which yielded titles of respect in many European languages. The form sir is first documented in English in 1297, as title of honor of a knight or baronet, being a variant of sire, which was already used in English since at least c.1205 as a title placed before a name and denoting knighthood, and to address the (male) Sovereign since c.1225, with additional general senses of "father, male parent" is from c.1250 and "important elderly man" from 1362.
#9
Posté 17 octobre 2009 - 02:38
Aurvan
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So they got it after A Song of Ice and Fire? That was the first place I saw it.solothores wrote...
"Ser" is just a stylistic modification of "Sir", there is no specific historical use, it's just a simple way for a writer trying to give a familiar term an exotic sound.
Quoting Wiki:
Sir derives from the Middle French honorific title sire (messire gave 'mylord'), from the Old French sieur (itself a contraction of Seigneur meaning 'lord'), from the Latin adjective senior (elder), which yielded titles of respect in many European languages. The form sir is first documented in English in 1297, as title of honor of a knight or baronet, being a variant of sire, which was already used in English since at least c.1205 as a title placed before a name and denoting knighthood, and to address the (male) Sovereign since c.1225, with additional general senses of "father, male parent" is from c.1250 and "important elderly man" from 1362.
#10
Posté 17 octobre 2009 - 02:46
solothores
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Not sure Aurvan, there is so much fantasy literature out there that I don't know about. GRRM might be the first, he might not be, who knows.
#11
Posté 17 octobre 2009 - 02:57
Aurvan
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Well, I guess I got my question answered. I thought maybe there was some historical usage that I wasn't aware of. And the reason I find the GRRM usage interesting is that I find quite a bit of similarities with his books and DA:O and maybe this was yet another thing.solothores wrote...
Not sure Aurvan, there is so much fantasy literature out there that I don't know about. GRRM might be the first, he might not be, who knows.
#12
Posté 17 octobre 2009 - 04:10
Eoweth
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Political correctness, in my fictional game? It's more likely than you think!
And more disappointing...
And more disappointing...
#13
Posté 17 octobre 2009 - 04:17
Aurvan
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I fail to understand the meaning of your post, or to what you are referring. Could you be so kind and elaborate?Eoweth wrote...
Political correctness, in my fictional game? It's more likely than you think!
And more disappointing...
If it was to the original post, I in no way was complaining that they didn't use "sir". I was just inquiring about the origin of the term "ser". As I am a fan of Mr. Martin, I like it quite a bit, actually. I still wonder about its origin, though.
#14
Posté 17 octobre 2009 - 05:40
Herr Uhl
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#15
Posté 17 octobre 2009 - 05:57
DocSun
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Wow... Part of me seriously wonders how much of this is actually going to be important during gameplay and how much is fluff. I have to admire BW though... the emence amount of background makes the world come alive.Herr Uhl wrote...
Check the politics part here: dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Fereldans
#17
Posté 17 octobre 2009 - 06:12
Aurvan
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That has already been posted, and I've read it. Didn't clear up much. I already knew the knights were called "Ser Knight", the purpose of the thread was to find out where the title came from - which is still unknown,Herr Uhl wrote...
Check the politics part here: dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Fereldans
#18
Posté 17 octobre 2009 - 06:38
Herr Uhl
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They chose it because they disliked calling female knights "dame"
See here: www.dragonagecentral.com/single/1221696000
See here: www.dragonagecentral.com/single/1221696000
#19
Posté 17 octobre 2009 - 06:47
Rivie
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Ah, good. "Dame" always did kind of annoy me, even if it is technically the correct term.
#20
Posté 17 octobre 2009 - 06:50
Dragon727272
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I fail to understand the meaning of your post, or to what you are referring. Could you be so kind and elaborate?
If it was to the original post, I in no way was complaining that they didn't use "sir". I was just inquiring about the origin of the term "ser". As I am a fan of Mr. Martin, I like it quite a bit, actually. I still wonder about its origin, though.
[/quote]
You aren't the only one Aurvan, it's my favourtie series, but he's taking too long for the next one
I think it's just a stylistic thing more than anything else
If it was to the original post, I in no way was complaining that they didn't use "sir". I was just inquiring about the origin of the term "ser". As I am a fan of Mr. Martin, I like it quite a bit, actually. I still wonder about its origin, though.
[/quote]
You aren't the only one Aurvan, it's my favourtie series, but he's taking too long for the next one
I think it's just a stylistic thing more than anything else
#21
Posté 17 octobre 2009 - 06:51
dreadjcc
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They maybe spelled different but the meaning and the way they are said are exactly the same way. The spelling as just change over the years, they probably just wanted to make it more authentic by using the old titles.dreadjcc wrote...
It could be old english
#22
Posté 17 octobre 2009 - 06:55
vyvexthorne
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Ser o no ser, esa es la pregunta. That's the only ser I know. To be-
#23
Posté 17 octobre 2009 - 07:30
Aurvan
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Ah, apparently someone called L.E. Modesitt uses "ser" as well. Maybe it's a fantasy-literature thing, like orcs, which span across the works of several authors. Still unclear who used it first, though.Herr Uhl wrote...
They chose it because they disliked calling female knights "dame"
See here: www.dragonagecentral.com/single/1221696000
#24
Posté 18 octobre 2009 - 01:39
Maria Caliban
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Aurvan wrote...
So they got it after A Song of Ice and Fire? That was the first place I saw it.
Yes.
#25
Posté 18 octobre 2009 - 01:49
Srikandi715
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In the context of an RPG which lets the player choose their character's gender, if you want to allow both genders for all races/classes/origins etc, it is vastly more convenient when writing dialogue to have a gender-neutral title. Reduces substantially the number of lines of dialogue that have to be recorded twice for gender adjustments.
So I would hypothesize that the motivation for going with a gender-neutral title, AND access by both genders to most or all social roles in the world, is not political, it's economic.
Of course, American RPGs are much more likely than those from Europe or Japan to allow the player to choose their character's gender for any race/class, as opposed to building those gender roles into the game. There may be a cultural/political motivation for that: American gamers expect in an RPG to be able to play a role of THEIR choosing, as opposed to acting out a role handed to them by the game devs. Something in our culture about individualism and choice, I guess.
So I would hypothesize that the motivation for going with a gender-neutral title, AND access by both genders to most or all social roles in the world, is not political, it's economic.
Of course, American RPGs are much more likely than those from Europe or Japan to allow the player to choose their character's gender for any race/class, as opposed to building those gender roles into the game. There may be a cultural/political motivation for that: American gamers expect in an RPG to be able to play a role of THEIR choosing, as opposed to acting out a role handed to them by the game devs. Something in our culture about individualism and choice, I guess.
Modifié par Srikandi715, 18 octobre 2009 - 01:49 .
