335 réponses à ce sujet

[Schneidend]

rumination888 wrote...

You can charge, kill 1 or as many as you think you can, take cover, then charge again. No where does it say you can't take cover inbetween charges.

Well, that's basically what the OP originally said to begin with. As long as you think you can survive it, you should charge and kill something. The OP never suggests against doing so, only that there are times when you can charge and are a lot less likely to survive to make it to cover.

[rumination888]

Schneidend wrote...
Well, that's basically what the OP originally said to begin with. As long as you think you can survive it, you should charge and kill something. The OP never suggests against doing so, only that there are times when you can charge and are a lot less likely to survive to make it to cover.

But if they don't think they can survive the Charge, then the Vanguard isn't for them. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wink.png[/smilie]
(i never thought i'd type that sentence when I first played Vanguard and railed against them weeks ago)

[Sabresandiego]

rumination888 wrote...

Schneidend wrote...
Well, that's basically what the OP originally said to begin with. As long as you think you can survive it, you should charge and kill something. The OP never suggests against doing so, only that there are times when you can charge and are a lot less likely to survive to make it to cover.

But if they don't think they can survive the Charge, then the Vanguard isn't for them. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wink.png[/smilie]
(i never thought i'd type that sentence when I first played Vanguard and railed against them weeks ago)

So if I dont think I can survive charging a mech supported by 3 auxillary gunners, I should charge anyways because I'm a Vanguard or quit the class? That is really poor logic. This mentality is why people thought Vanguards sucked for insanity a month ago. Just because you can charge doesn't mean you should. Charge is your bread and butter ability, and you'll use it more than any other skill by far, but sometimes you need to sit back and use tactics and/or weaken your enemies before charging in.

[aeetos21]

I just did Miranda's mission (for the umpteenth time) and it really is a vanguard mission that tests how well you play your class. By that I mean everysingle encounter can be won and won quickly by using charge early on, getting behind the enemy position (no more spawning), signal your squad to regroup as you and your team catch the enemies in a deadly crossfire.



Every single fight was like that and it worked beautifully.



Some fights you want to lessen the enemy a bit before charging. For this I'll use Mordin's recruitment mission, something I know everybody is familiar with.



First encounter with the blue suns there are two choices: stairs to the left or a somewhat protected walk up the right. Down the middle is suicide. What I do is I send Jacob to the right to take cover behind the wall there and then me and Miranda go up the steps and onto the second floor overlook to shoot down at the blue sun's hiding behind the barricade. As the firefight goes on blue suns mercs will try to overtake Jacob's position along the right wall and as they do they cross right under your line of fire. Picking them off is easy as hell and after three or four blue suns are dead, the "herd" is "lessened" and so the next guy that tries to overtake Jacob you charge him from up high (really wish I could see this from a different point of view, it'd look like lightning had just struck the merc). From then you lead the assault on the merc barricade with a combination of charges and special ammunitions.



An quick easy fight, but one that demonstrates the valueness of both charge and deploying your squad effectively.



A little less easy and quick but not less the same type of fight is the very last fight of Mordin's recruitment mission when you go about turning on the fans. Again divide and conquer and use charge to move you strategically around the battlefield to quickly turn on the fans before more vorcha and krogan can spawn.



Looking back at the fights now I see that going toe to toe? VG is a very weak class (a glass cannon) that can be shattered easily. It's when you use charge decisively to put you in a position to dominate does VG go from being weak to being Godly.

[Sabresandiego]

mundus66 wrote...

One thing which is very important imo that you didn't mention was pull. I think every vanguard should have pull, since when combined with Thane and Miranda (my favorite squad) you can use it to set up those lethal biotic combos. And since the cooldown on pull is so brief you can use it and then charge 2 seconds later. Try it and you will like it, i started doing this after playing adept and its the best of 2 worlds imo.

Pull is a very good ability and has multiple uses. The problem is that even one point in pull requires me to drop squad cryo and also invest 3 points in the worthless ability shockwave. Also, despite its cooldown it is not instant cast like it is when you use a teamates pull. Finally, getting area pull means I would have to drop 2 max abilities, not just squad cryo. With all that being said, it is certainly possible that getting 1 point in pull and using 2 teamates with warp (Miranda and Thane for multiple warp explosions) would be a more powerful combo than having squad cryo and using 1 teamate with warp and another with pull. I will compare the two and see which I like better.

[Schneidend]

Rumination, there are simply some situations where Charge is not the best immediate answer. There are odds that are impossible even for a vanguard. If you charge into that crowd of Eclipse Troopers and Vanguards standing on top of the staircase beneath the two rocket drones during the Thane recruitment, for instance, you are more than likely going to die before you make it to the small column that can provide cover against both the crowd and the rocket drones. Likewise, charging a YMIR standing right next to another YMIR or surrounded by multiple Blue Suns mercs is generally a bad idea.



As Saber says, Charge is your bread and butter, but sometimes chilling for a bit and thinning softening the enemy up is a far better option if you're going for minimal save reloads.

[aeetos21]

Schneidend wrote...

As Saber says, Charge is your bread and butter, but sometimes chilling for a bit and thinning softening the enemy up is a far better option if you're going for minimal save reloads.

This, unless you know you can cut the fight off before it has a chance to start. By that I mean on Korus during the Grunt recruitment mission. When you go across that big open bridge (the biggest one) to get to Okeare's lab Blue Suns will start spawning at the other end. Initially it's just two but then heavies will spawn and before you know it you'll have a firefight going on over a big open area. Which is okay, you can certainly still win the fight and move on but it is SO much easier to at first sight charge one of the two blue suns, shoot, move into the ahead room and find cover before finishing the two off.

No more spawning, likely three minute fight finished in under ten seconds.

[Schneidend]

Well, when I see just two guys running around and nothing else on my radar, I definitely Charge, aeetos. I'm not advising against taking risks when it looks like it could genuinely pay off. Obviously, advancing quickly to avoid enemy spawns is a good idea (though I prefer having lots of enemies to kill, call me bloodthirsty), but I was referring to when an encounter is already set and in play. For instance, the YMIR mech plus a bunch of Blue Suns mercs in the Garrus loyalty mission. Charging the guys behind the mech immediately is generally a bad idea, since turian shotgunners will spawn some time later (and not even from a door, they just walk out from behind a crate with no visible exit) and ambush YOU from behind.

[rumination888]

There are only a couple times where I did not Charge recklessly:

1.) Before I maxed out Heavy Charge and Champion

2.) When the enemy cannot be Charged because they're in an unreachable place. I either walk on by and ignore them, or bunker down and shoot them. I only recall doing that for the beginning of Grunt's recruitment mission, Praetorians, and the end Reaper boss.

Facing off against a mech and a bunch of mercs? charge
2+ YMIR mechs? Cain, then charge

All of my deaths occured before i maxed out Heavy Charge and Champion.

Edit: Okay, I actually died a couple times when Charge bugged out, but you can't blame me for that one.

Modifié par rumination888, 27 février 2010 - 07:55 .

[RamsenC]

Schneidend wrote...

Well, when I see just two guys running around and nothing else on my radar, I definitely Charge, aeetos. I'm not advising against taking risks when it looks like it could genuinely pay off. Obviously, advancing quickly to avoid enemy spawns is a good idea (though I prefer having lots of enemies to kill, call me bloodthirsty), but I was referring to when an encounter is already set and in play. For instance, the YMIR mech plus a bunch of Blue Suns mercs in the Garrus loyalty mission. Charging the guys behind the mech immediately is generally a bad idea, since turian shotgunners will spawn some time later (and not even from a door, they just walk out from behind a crate with no visible exit) and ambush YOU from behind.

When theres a YMIR with enemies I usually just stay behind cover and take the mech out ignoring all other enemies unless they try to flank. I agree it would be stupid to charge in that situation. Having 1 point in barrier helps a lot in these situations since you don't want to charge, but you want a quick shield boost.

Modifié par RamsenC, 27 février 2010 - 07:57 .

[_Dannok1234]

About the melee shoulders. I couldn't agree more with RamenC, there is no faster way to kill your enemies if you are using Scimitar or Evi. Shot and melee cylces should be shot melee shot (repeated until dead) with scimitar, and shot melee melee shot with the Evi. Obviously you stop sooner if somethings already dead. It's by far the fastest way and safest, to kill your enemies.

As for a specific tip I have another variation of Aeetos21's tactic for the barricaded Blue Suns.
When you first see them there are 3 guys standing around, the one in the middle is what I call an elite as he'll take more shots to kill. Have Miranda use overload on the normal mook to the right, which is closest to the entrance/exit of their little "fort". As soon as that hits, charge him so you end up behind the barricade, shoot him in the head to kill him with the Evi and run like hell out the open "door" thats infront of you and take cover. You now have them pinned down. Couple of shots and 1 or 2 charges and the fight is over. Quick and easy.

Also about the OP's word of caution about when to charge and not trying to emulate the vids in Thisisme's thread. I would recommend you to play pretty darn aggressive but to expect a learning curve. Especially being more picky and choosy at the beginning when you only have heavy charge and not maxed champion, but once you know how to charge,  to your best advantage you can pretty much charge anyone and anything from the word go.
I'm starting to think that once you "master" charge, Vanguard becomes the easiest class to play on insanity.

Also would like to echo RamenC again about 1 point into barrier as an option rather then going Reave. It's extremely useful in situations where you cannot charge, such as against Praetorians and so on, in those cases that 1 point might give you more value then 10 from reave.

(PS AP ammo is totally rubbish, the end. Don't ever mention it for vanguards. Go to the other vanguard thread and you can read from page 3 and onwards as to why.)

Modifié par Dannok1234, 27 février 2010 - 08:29 .

[aeetos21]

Related to the cut off the enemies before they can spawn topic, created a quick how-to video for the fan segment of Mordin's recruitment mission. Can be found here.

[Spyndel]

Yes on Melee shoulders and Melee upgrade. The melee upgrades are the biggest bang for the buck components in the game, and if a Vanguard isnt going to use them, then who? If you're not melee-ing as a Vanguard, youre doing it wrong. The punch-shoot punch cycle keeps enemies permanently off balance, and means you dont have to wait till theyre almost dead anyways to charge them.



No on AP ammo. Discussed elsewhere.



I cant help but feel, though, much of this guide's hints, "Dont rush in blind, only charge if you know what to expect" points to the Vanguards identity as a "trial and error" class where essentially you're just memorizing the way maps play out to learn the optimum "charge path" through the mission. After which, the Vanguard looks very impressive. Not so much earlier on when they were either A) playing conservatively, trying to learn the charge path, or Lying on their back dead. AT least until the late game, where a fully upgraded and Claymored Vanguard can charge with much more impunity into multiple enemies.

[aeetos21]

I think it's melee shoulders and muscle weave upgrade give you 75% improved melee damage total?

[Spyndel]

aeetos21 wrote...

I think it's melee shoulders and muscle weave upgrade give you 75% improved melee damage total?

I think its 25% each.

[aeetos21]

oh I'm thinking of the bone weave that makes shepard take 50% less damage

[Sabresandiego]

The meelee shoulders are great, but using the scimitar I dont meelee nearly as much as other shotgun users. Another reason I dont melee as much is that after my charge, I am usually moving towards cover while firing my scimitar to dispatch an enemy.

[RamsenC]

Moving away from an enemy while firing is generally a bad idea for two reasons.



1) You lose the double damage bonus at melee range.

2) The scimitar is pretty inaccurate and moving away means more of your pellets are missing.

[_Dannok1234]

Sabresandiego wrote...

The meelee shoulders are great, but using the scimitar I dont meelee nearly as much as other shotgun users. Another reason I dont melee as much is that after my charge, I am usually moving towards cover while firing my scimitar to dispatch an enemy.

You can melee in between shots with the scimitar without sacrificing your shooting speed. So it's actually faster to kill enemies this way. Spending 0.6 seconds to kill one normal enemy with shield/barrier or armor is pretty quick generally need 3 shots if you don't use melee which would be 1.2 seconds. Can just move towards him as you charge in and take cover that way(after the kill) rather then running backwards, which is a bit slower then running forward.

[mundus66]

Sabresandiego wrote...

mundus66 wrote...

One thing which is very important imo that you didn't mention was pull. I think every vanguard should have pull, since when combined with Thane and Miranda (my favorite squad) you can use it to set up those lethal biotic combos. And since the cooldown on pull is so brief you can use it and then charge 2 seconds later. Try it and you will like it, i started doing this after playing adept and its the best of 2 worlds imo.

Pull is a very good ability and has multiple uses. The problem is that even one point in pull requires me to drop squad cryo and also invest 3 points in the worthless ability shockwave. Also, despite its cooldown it is not instant cast like it is when you use a teamates pull. Finally, getting area pull means I would have to drop 2 max abilities, not just squad cryo. With all that being said, it is certainly possible that getting 1 point in pull and using 2 teamates with warp (Miranda and Thane for multiple warp explosions) would be a more powerful combo than having squad cryo and using 1 teamate with warp and another with pull. I will compare the two and see which I like better.

You can still get squad cryo ammo and pull if you don't max your extra power.

[Sabresandiego]

RamsenC wrote...

Moving away from an enemy while firing is generally a bad idea for two reasons.

1) You lose the double damage bonus at melee range.
2) The scimitar is pretty inaccurate and moving away means more of your pellets are missing.

What double damage bonus? Thats news to me.

[_Dannok1234]

Most weapons do double damage when you are at melee distance. Bit longer range and it's 1.25

[Kurupt87]

Sabresandiego wrote...

RamsenC wrote...

Moving away from an enemy while firing is generally a bad idea for two reasons.

1) You lose the double damage bonus at melee range.
2) The scimitar is pretty inaccurate and moving away means more of your pellets are missing.

What double damage bonus? Thats news to me.

aye, melee range shots do double dmg, its not as clear with the shotties because when far away the spread means you miss with some of your pellets which also decreases dmg. try shooting someone with a heavy pistol shot, check dmg, then get right in his face and shoot him, you'll do much more damage.
edit: sp

Modifié par Kurupt87, 27 février 2010 - 09:59 .

[RamsenC]

You also get a 25% damage boost at short range, not sure how far that is exactly, but melee range is pretty damn short.



Also melee timing between Scimitar shots without slowing down is not the easiest thing to do, but its definitely possible.

[weirdscientist]

Here's a list of planets with lots of platinum and eezo. I can't take credit, though. I found this on another message board. So far in my scanning tests, it's been legit. For us vanguards, skipping ahead to planets where there's plenty of platinum for shotgun and medical upgrades saves us lots of time. This is also helpful for you infiltrators who would like to upgrade your sniper rifles in an expeditious manner. If you've beaten ME2, then you'll already start with 50k eezo, which is more than enough. Anyways, happy probing



Planets with Rich to Moderate amount of Platinum:

Crescent Nebula - Lusarn Cluster - Planet Tarith

Crescent Nebula - Ondestre Cluster - Planet Acaeria

Crescent Nebula - Ondestre Cluster - Planet Maisuth

Crescent Nebula - Ondestre Cluster - Planet Zesmeni

Eagle Nebula - Relic Cluster - Planet Rough Tide

Eagle Nebula - Amun Cluster - Planet Anhur

Eagle Nebula - Amun Cluster - Planet Neith

Eagle Nebula - Amun Cluster - Planet Sekhmet

Eagle Nebula - Amun Cluster - Planet Sobek

Hourglass Nebula - Faryar Cluster - Planet Daratar

Hourglass Nebula - Osun Cluster - Planet Erinle

Omega Nebula - Arinlarkan Cluster - Planet Utha

Caleston Rift - Aysur Cluster - Planet Agnin

Caleston Rift - Aysur Cluster - Planet Alformus

Caleston Rift - Aysur Cluster - Planet Arvuna

Caleston Rift - Aysur Cluster - Planet Shasu

Caleston Rift - Aysur Cluster - Planet Shir

Caleston Rift - Aysur Cluster - Planet Tamgauta

Caleston Rift - Balor Cluster - Planet Bres

Caleston Rift - Balor Cluster - Planet Caleston

Caleston Rift - Balor Cluster - Planet Cernunnos

Caleston Rift - Balor Cluster - Planet Elatha

Caleston Rift - Balor Cluster - Planet Partholon

Hades Nexus - Hekate Cluster - Planet Bothros



Planets with Rich to Moderate amount of Element Zero:

Eagle Nebula - Relic Cluster - Planet Preying Mouth

Eagle Nebula - Amun Cluster - Planet Anhur

Eagle Nebula - Amun Cluster - Planet Sekhmet

Crescent Nebula - Lusarn Cluster - Planet Tarith

Crescent Nebula - Zelene Cluster - Planet Helyme

Hourglass Nebula - Faryar Cluster - Planet Daratar

Hourglass Nebula - Osun Cluster - Planet Erinie

Hourglass Nebula - Ploitari Cluster - Planet Thegan

Rosetta Nebula - Alpha Draconis Cluster - Planet 2175 Aeia

Rosetta Nebula - Enoch Cluster - Planet Joab

Rosetta Nebula - Enoch Cluster - Planet Laban

Rosetta Nebula - Enoch Cluster - Planet Mizraim

Titan Nebula - Haskins Cluster - Planet Capek

Valhallan Threshhold - Micah Cluster - Planet Farlas

Valhallan Threshhold - Micah Cluster - Planet Israfil

Valhallan Threshhold - Micah Cluster - Planet Kakabel

The Shrike Abyssal - Urla Rast Cluster - Planet Talis Fia

The Shrike Abyssal - Xe Cha Cluster - Planet Tosal Nym

The Shrike Abyssal - Xe Cha Cluster - Planet Zada Ban

Sigurd's Cradle - Decoris Cluster - Planet Sanctum

Sigurd's Cradle - Skepsis Cluster - Planet Watson

Omega Nebula - Batalla Cluster - Planet Nearog

The Phoenix Massing - Salahiel Cluster - Planet Ekuna

Krogan DMZ - Nith Cluster - Planet Mantun

Minos Wasteland - Caestus Cluster - Planet Invictus

Nubian Expanse - Kalabsha CVluster - Planet Yamm

Far Rim - Dholen Cluster - Planet Gotha

Hades Nexus - Sheol Cluster - Planet Gei Hinnom

Hawking Eta - Schwarzschild Cluster - Planet Etamis

Caleston Rift - Aysur Cluster - Planet Arvuna

Caleston Rift - Balor Cluster - Planet Caleston