335 réponses à ce sujet

[Kronner]

JaegerBane wrote...

I've
never totally understood why a Vanguard using a Sniper Rifle is so
un-RP. Just 'cos they can crush enemies at short range, doesn't mean
they never fight at long range...

sinosleep wrote...

I don't really get it either, especially when you consider the fact that it'll come out to play for only about 10% of the game. Even as a very, very, big proponent of taking the sniper rifle on the collector ship, I still charge around 90% of the time. The sniper rifle only comes out against YMIR mechs, the end boss, and the occasional non chargeable enemy. 

As I said, it is purely from my subjective Role Playing view. I just see Vanguards as up-close specialists, so having Sniper Rifle seems odd to me. Similarly, I would never take biotic bonus talent for Infiltrator, Soldier or Engineer, because neither class is a biotic etc. Just my 0.02$.

And yeah, Area Reave is pretty much I-win-button, especially when you have Samara = 2x Area Reave.

[aeetos21]

I know I wouldn't mind having a sniper on Horizon, do a lot more damage to those scions before running out of ammo and being forced to finish them at close range.

[Sabresandiego]

Kronner wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...

I've
never totally understood why a Vanguard using a Sniper Rifle is so
un-RP. Just 'cos they can crush enemies at short range, doesn't mean
they never fight at long range...

sinosleep wrote...

I don't really get it either, especially when you consider the fact that it'll come out to play for only about 10% of the game. Even as a very, very, big proponent of taking the sniper rifle on the collector ship, I still charge around 90% of the time. The sniper rifle only comes out against YMIR mechs, the end boss, and the occasional non chargeable enemy. 

As I said, it is purely from my subjective Role Playing view. I just see Vanguards as up-close specialists, so having Sniper Rifle seems odd to me. Similarly, I would never take biotic bonus talent for Infiltrator, Soldier or Engineer, because neither class is a biotic etc. Just my 0.02$.

And yeah, Area Reave is pretty much I-win-button, especially when you have Samara = 2x Area Reave.

There are lots of I win buttons. This guide is about building the most effective vanguard you can and using him to win. If you want to forget about bonus powers you can easily make a vanguard nearly as strong as a reave vanguard by dropping squad cryo and reave and adding pull field. Then just bring Thane and Miranda and warp explode anyone without defenses. The only reason I use reave instead of pullfield is because I like my squad cryo ammo. A Pullfield Vanguard with Thane and Miranda is just as powerful as a reave vanguard but lacks squad cryo.

[phordicus]

random comments:



* i like the versatility the sniper rifle gives me. some battles present few opportunities to charge, and charging ALL the time gets boring for me. it also lets me mix up my squadmates more.

* just for style points, i try to get as many indirect "kills" as possible, such as knocking them off a cliff or into an explosive object. secondary style points for knocking a Pulled enemy into the sky and off the map.

* you can actually fight any number of enemies at once without cover. the trick is to locate one who cannot kill you in the time it takes for Charge to cool down. charge this guy repeatedly (knocking him into very nearby cover is ideal) and use him as a living shield while picking off his buddies.

* when you die sucks. when your teammates die, who cares. don't be afraid to just click some point behind all the bad guys. theyll try to run there and may even kill something on the way. meanwhile you can do your thing while the enemy is distracted. if they die, they're still in a good position when resurrected to provide yet more distraction. this is far easier and more fun than trying to keep your idiot squadmates alive and useful.

[Kronner]

Sabresandiego wrote...

There are lots of I win buttons. This guide is about building the most effective vanguard you can and using him to win. If you want to forget about bonus powers you can easily make a vanguard nearly as strong as a reave vanguard by dropping squad cryo and reave and adding pull field. Then just bring Thane and Miranda and warp explode anyone without defenses. The only reason I use reave instead of pullfield is because I like my squad cryo ammo. A Pullfield Vanguard with Thane and Miranda is just as powerful as a reave vanguard but lacks squad cryo.

I do not say Reave is bad, I usually take it as my bonus talent too, simply because it is by far the best bonus you can have, but its uses are limited, because for me, 6 second cooldown is way too long in most situations, so it really comes into play only on enemies you cannot Charge.

Though, this guide is very simillar to already existing thisisme8's thread:
http://social.biowar...8/index/1061080

Modifié par Kronner, 01 mars 2010 - 09:06 .

[Sabresandiego]

Because of people whining about Reave, I am going to provide a second video tutorial link in this thread that uses pull and barrier. Both videos will teach the same strategies.

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 01 mars 2010 - 12:42 .

[_Dannok1234]

Wow those comments where whining?

Edit: Since that was a pretty useless question thought I'd add. Second video is nice as well. Should help those that have problems with excessive deaths.

Modifié par Dannok1234, 01 mars 2010 - 01:28 .

[Sabresandiego]

Dannok1234 wrote...

Wow those comments where whining?

Edit: Since that was a pretty useless question thought I'd add. Second video is nice as well. Should help those that have problems with excessive deaths.

It wasnt just you, many were complaining that the video was just showcasing reave or that reave is too powerful, so I changed to pull/barrier and made an alternate video. Reave is the better build but pull/barrier is a close second due to warp explosions.

[Sabresandiego]

My Pull/Barrier Video is up, and I have to admit it was lots of fun. It is neck and neck with reave as my favorite build. Anyways now that I have fraps, I can record any area of the game. I am open to requests so let me know what area you want to see and what builds you want to see used. I think my next few videos will be insanity+ early game videos, which is the highest difficulty the game offers.

[JaegerBane]

Kronner wrote...
As I said, it is purely from my subjective Role Playing view. I just see Vanguards as up-close specialists, so having Sniper Rifle seems odd to me. Similarly, I would never take biotic bonus talent for Infiltrator, Soldier or Engineer, because neither class is a biotic etc. Just my 0.02$.

And yeah, Area Reave is pretty much I-win-button, especially when you have Samara = 2x Area Reave.

I agree with never taking a biotic bonus talent on a non-biotic class - that makes sense. What doesn't make sense is assuming that a soldier will refuse to take a sniper rifle just because they do some fighting at short range. It just seems ridiculously arbitrary.

[Kronner]

JaegerBane wrote...

Kronner wrote...
As I said, it is purely from my subjective Role Playing view. I just see Vanguards as up-close specialists, so having Sniper Rifle seems odd to me. Similarly, I would never take biotic bonus talent for Infiltrator, Soldier or Engineer, because neither class is a biotic etc. Just my 0.02$.

And yeah, Area Reave is pretty much I-win-button, especially when you have Samara = 2x Area Reave.

I agree with never taking a biotic bonus talent on a non-biotic class - that makes sense. What doesn't make sense is assuming that a soldier will refuse to take a sniper rifle just because they do some fighting at short range. It just seems ridiculously arbitrary.

Your opinion. I disagree. That's all. You like SR - take it/use it/enjoy it. I will take, use and enjoy Claymore. Everybody's happy.

[Schneidend]

JaegerBane wrote...

I agree with never taking a biotic bonus talent on a non-biotic class - that makes sense. What doesn't make sense is assuming that a soldier will refuse to take a sniper rifle just because they do some fighting at short range. It just seems ridiculously arbitrary.

In real military action, not every soldier carries a sniper rifle, and most aren't even trained to use them effectively. As with anything, people tend to specialize, and being a soldier is no different.

[Sabresandiego]

I added a husk video, will add more bonus videos soon. I have savegames in most locations so if you want to see a particular area let me know.

[Average Gatsby]

I can't help but notice, after watching your videos and reading the OP, that your basically advocating, in your ultimate/optimum build, that the vanguard play like a Sentinel with Reave and nothing else.



1) You only advocate very conservative charging, like how a Sentinel shouldn't try to move in close unless it can get in range to use the force of its detonation to knock out some targets and keep it alive.

2) Your build centers entirely around Reave spam, which might be effective, but it doesn't really involve much in the way of varied or unique play. A sentinel could spam reave the same way, except it would have better cooldown and better damage.

3) You don't use biotic combos because your spending so much time waiting for the reave cooldown you don't make much use of your own pull. Sentinels Also don't have pull, and therefore can't be the setup portion of a biotic combo.



The Vanguard Reave build isn't a Vanguard build at all. Its a Reave Build that happens to be used by the vanguard class, in which a sentinel using the exact same techniques could do everything with even more effectiveness.



Everyone can play the way that they like or feel, but the claim that this is the Most powerful way to play the vanguard, seems to not really be all that substantial especially if another class could copy everything and even improve on it. Since your claiming to be making a Min/Max guide and not a for fun guide, you've got to show how the uniqueness of the vanguards core abilities make it superior. If another class can copy everything and do it better, then whats even the point of the Vanguard in the title?

[RamsenC]

Average Gatsby wrote...

I can't help but notice, after watching your videos and reading the OP, that your basically advocating, in your ultimate/optimum build, that the vanguard play like a Sentinel with Reave and nothing else.

1) You only advocate very conservative charging, like how a Sentinel shouldn't try to move in close unless it can get in range to use the force of its detonation to knock out some targets and keep it alive.
2) Your build centers entirely around Reave spam, which might be effective, but it doesn't really involve much in the way of varied or unique play. A sentinel could spam reave the same way, except it would have better cooldown and better damage.
3) You don't use biotic combos because your spending so much time waiting for the reave cooldown you don't make much use of your own pull. Sentinels Also don't have pull, and therefore can't be the setup portion of a biotic combo.

The Vanguard Reave build isn't a Vanguard build at all. Its a Reave Build that happens to be used by the vanguard class, in which a sentinel using the exact same techniques could do everything with even more effectiveness.

Everyone can play the way that they like or feel, but the claim that this is the Most powerful way to play the vanguard, seems to not really be all that substantial especially if another class could copy everything and even improve on it. Since your claiming to be making a Min/Max guide and not a for fun guide, you've got to show how the uniqueness of the vanguards core abilities make it superior. If another class can copy everything and do it better, then whats even the point of the Vanguard in the title?

You are a very wise man. If only I could articulate my point that well.

Modifié par RamsenC, 02 mars 2010 - 10:49 .

[thisisme8]

RamsenC wrote...

You are a very wise man.

I bet he has a real beard.

[sinosleep]

thisisme8 wrote...
I bet he has a real beard.

LMFAO! Did you go to happy hour again? 

[RamsenC]

thisisme8 wrote...

RamsenC wrote...

You are a very wise man.

I bet he has a real beard.

Harsh 

I'll have my beard soon enough, with braids and everything.

[Sabresandiego]

Average Gatsby wrote...

I can't help but notice, after watching your videos and reading the OP, that your basically advocating, in your ultimate/optimum build, that the vanguard play like a Sentinel with Reave and nothing else.

1) You only advocate very conservative charging, like how a Sentinel shouldn't try to move in close unless it can get in range to use the force of its detonation to knock out some targets and keep it alive.
2) Your build centers entirely around Reave spam, which might be effective, but it doesn't really involve much in the way of varied or unique play. A sentinel could spam reave the same way, except it would have better cooldown and better damage.
3) You don't use biotic combos because your spending so much time waiting for the reave cooldown you don't make much use of your own pull. Sentinels Also don't have pull, and therefore can't be the setup portion of a biotic combo.

The Vanguard Reave build isn't a Vanguard build at all. Its a Reave Build that happens to be used by the vanguard class, in which a sentinel using the exact same techniques could do everything with even more effectiveness.

Everyone can play the way that they like or feel, but the claim that this is the Most powerful way to play the vanguard, seems to not really be all that substantial especially if another class could copy everything and even improve on it. Since your claiming to be making a Min/Max guide and not a for fun guide, you've got to show how the uniqueness of the vanguards core abilities make it superior. If another class can copy everything and do it better, then whats even the point of the Vanguard in the title?

I dont use reave at all in my pull/barrier build and video. And I do arguably even better by consistantly setting up warp explosions with pull. Your argument holds merit for any class that uses reave, the difference is that I use my vanguard abilities consistantly throughout the video unlike that which you describe. I dont know if you are watching the same videos as me, but I am constantly using my vanguard abilities, and doing things you can not do with other classes. You describe as if I am sitting back and reave spamming which I am not doing even in my reave video. Watch my pull/barrier video where I play exactly the same style but without using reave.

[Average Gatsby]

Sabresandiego wrote...

Average Gatsby wrote...

I can't help but notice, after watching your videos and reading the OP, that your basically advocating, in your ultimate/optimum build, that the vanguard play like a Sentinel with Reave and nothing else.

1) You only advocate very conservative charging, like how a Sentinel shouldn't try to move in close unless it can get in range to use the force of its detonation to knock out some targets and keep it alive.
2) Your build centers entirely around Reave spam, which might be effective, but it doesn't really involve much in the way of varied or unique play. A sentinel could spam reave the same way, except it would have better cooldown and better damage.
3) You don't use biotic combos because your spending so much time waiting for the reave cooldown you don't make much use of your own pull. Sentinels Also don't have pull, and therefore can't be the setup portion of a biotic combo.

The Vanguard Reave build isn't a Vanguard build at all. Its a Reave Build that happens to be used by the vanguard class, in which a sentinel using the exact same techniques could do everything with even more effectiveness.

Everyone can play the way that they like or feel, but the claim that this is the Most powerful way to play the vanguard, seems to not really be all that substantial especially if another class could copy everything and even improve on it. Since your claiming to be making a Min/Max guide and not a for fun guide, you've got to show how the uniqueness of the vanguards core abilities make it superior. If another class can copy everything and do it better, then whats even the point of the Vanguard in the title?

I dont use reave at all in my pull/barrier build and video. And I do arguably even better by consistantly setting up warp explosions with pull. Your argument holds merit for any class that uses reave, the difference is that I use my vanguard abilities consistantly throughout the video unlike that which you describe. I dont know if you are watching the same videos as me, but I am constantly using my vanguard abilities, and doing things you can not do with other classes. You describe as if I am sitting back and reave spamming which I am not doing even in my reave video. Watch my pull/barrier video where I play exactly the same style but without using reave.

I didn't make this clear: I am specifically talking about your Reave Video because it is what you've claimed to be the best build. The Pull/Barrier video I'm not referencing at all because nothing I said would have made any sense.

In your guide, you've stated that those are 2 different builds. This is only in response to the Reave build. You state that it is the best build for the Vanguard. Says so in your signature.

1) You use reave 15 times. You use Charge 12 times. Other than that, your vanguard uses no other abilities, nor do you set up any biotic combos. Your casting more than your charging which may not be a fair comparison, but even when you charge...
2) You only make 2 long distance tactical charges. You make about 3 or 4 tactical shield recharging charges against harbinger. All of your other charges you could have just ran into range, and had you had Tech Armor you would've benefited from a knockdown.
3) You use no other vanguard abilities. So besides ammo, you use one vanguard ability and a bonus power. Like a Sentinel with just reave.
4) You are sitting back and using your reave and your squadmates powers until you have created a situation where there is little to no chance of death, just like now a sentinel would use assault armor explosions.

Any class could do this, because all your doing is using Reave. A sentinel could do it better, an engineer/adept/infiltrator/soldier would do the same with barrier or geth shield boost, perhaps a bit slower but in substance almost identical.

Once again, there isn't any point in talking about Pull or Barrier because you have expressly not included them in your Reave build. I must say again, you say that the Reave build is the optimum build for the vanguard class. By your own admission, using more of the vanguards abilities, Pull, you did better. Isn't that perhaps indicative that your vanguard reave build is simply just a Reave build with vanguard attached to it, and is probably not the optimum build for a vanguard?

[Kronner]

Average Gatsby wrote...

I didn't make this clear: I am specifically talking about your Reave Video because it is what you've claimed to be the best build. The Pull/Barrier video I'm not referencing at all because nothing I said would have made any sense.

In your guide, you've stated that those are 2 different builds. This is only in response to the Reave build. You state that it is the best build for the Vanguard. Says so in your signature.

1) You use reave 15 times. You use Charge 12 times. Other than that, your vanguard uses no other abilities, nor do you set up any biotic combos. Your casting more than your charging which may not be a fair comparison, but even when you charge...
2) You only make 2 long distance tactical charges. You make about 3 or 4 tactical shield recharging charges against harbinger. All of your other charges you could have just ran into range, and had you had Tech Armor you would've benefited from a knockdown.
3) You use no other vanguard abilities. So besides ammo, you use one vanguard ability and a bonus power. Like a Sentinel with just reave.
4) You are sitting back and using your reave and your squadmates powers until you have created a situation where there is little to no chance of death, just like now a sentinel would use assault armor explosions.

Any class could do this, because all your doing is using Reave. A sentinel could do it better, an engineer/adept/infiltrator/soldier would do the same with barrier or geth shield boost, perhaps a bit slower but in substance almost identical.

Once again, there isn't any point in talking about Pull or Barrier because you have expressly not included them in your Reave build. I must say again, you say that the Reave build is the optimum build for the vanguard class. By your own admission, using more of the vanguards abilities, Pull, you did better. Isn't that perhaps indicative that your vanguard reave build is simply just a Reave build with vanguard attached to it, and is probably not the optimum build for a vanguard?

Agreed 100%. Why call this an optimum Vanguard when all classes can just spam Reave?
With that said, OP, it is your game and your decision how you play and what you enjoy , but I guess most people that play Vanguard use Charge a lot more:)

[Sabresandiego]

Average Gatsby wrote...

Sabresandiego wrote...

Average Gatsby wrote...

I can't help but notice, after watching your videos and reading the OP, that your basically advocating, in your ultimate/optimum build, that the vanguard play like a Sentinel with Reave and nothing else.

1) You only advocate very conservative charging, like how a Sentinel shouldn't try to move in close unless it can get in range to use the force of its detonation to knock out some targets and keep it alive.
2) Your build centers entirely around Reave spam, which might be effective, but it doesn't really involve much in the way of varied or unique play. A sentinel could spam reave the same way, except it would have better cooldown and better damage.
3) You don't use biotic combos because your spending so much time waiting for the reave cooldown you don't make much use of your own pull. Sentinels Also don't have pull, and therefore can't be the setup portion of a biotic combo.

The Vanguard Reave build isn't a Vanguard build at all. Its a Reave Build that happens to be used by the vanguard class, in which a sentinel using the exact same techniques could do everything with even more effectiveness.

Everyone can play the way that they like or feel, but the claim that this is the Most powerful way to play the vanguard, seems to not really be all that substantial especially if another class could copy everything and even improve on it. Since your claiming to be making a Min/Max guide and not a for fun guide, you've got to show how the uniqueness of the vanguards core abilities make it superior. If another class can copy everything and do it better, then whats even the point of the Vanguard in the title?

I dont use reave at all in my pull/barrier build and video. And I do arguably even better by consistantly setting up warp explosions with pull. Your argument holds merit for any class that uses reave, the difference is that I use my vanguard abilities consistantly throughout the video unlike that which you describe. I dont know if you are watching the same videos as me, but I am constantly using my vanguard abilities, and doing things you can not do with other classes. You describe as if I am sitting back and reave spamming which I am not doing even in my reave video. Watch my pull/barrier video where I play exactly the same style but without using reave.

I didn't make this clear: I am specifically talking about your Reave Video because it is what you've claimed to be the best build. The Pull/Barrier video I'm not referencing at all because nothing I said would have made any sense.

In your guide, you've stated that those are 2 different builds. This is only in response to the Reave build. You state that it is the best build for the Vanguard. Says so in your signature.

1) You use reave 15 times. You use Charge 12 times. Other than that, your vanguard uses no other abilities, nor do you set up any biotic combos. Your casting more than your charging which may not be a fair comparison, but even when you charge...
2) You only make 2 long distance tactical charges. You make about 3 or 4 tactical shield recharging charges against harbinger. All of your other charges you could have just ran into range, and had you had Tech Armor you would've benefited from a knockdown.
3) You use no other vanguard abilities. So besides ammo, you use one vanguard ability and a bonus power. Like a Sentinel with just reave.
4) You are sitting back and using your reave and your squadmates powers until you have created a situation where there is little to no chance of death, just like now a sentinel would use assault armor explosions.

Any class could do this, because all your doing is using Reave. A sentinel could do it better, an engineer/adept/infiltrator/soldier would do the same with barrier or geth shield boost, perhaps a bit slower but in substance almost identical.

Once again, there isn't any point in talking about Pull or Barrier because you have expressly not included them in your Reave build. I must say again, you say that the Reave build is the optimum build for the vanguard class. By your own admission, using more of the vanguards abilities, Pull, you did better. Isn't that perhaps indicative that your vanguard reave build is simply just a Reave build with vanguard attached to it, and is probably not the optimum build for a vanguard?

That is an intelligent critique of my video that is quite accurate. Good post Gatsby, now to answer your inquiry:

My first video does highlight reave. Any class can use reave and there is marginal difference between the classes. Vanguards are biotic specialists and therefore one of the better classes to use reave with (perhaps sentinel is better).

My reave build has reave, and against collectors reave is extremely strong which is why I use it often. I am about to post a video using my same reave build but against geth where reave is terrible.

I dont use biotic combos in my reave video because I specd Samara wrong and gave here area throw instead of pull field and there is no way to respec squadmates that I know of. If I could respec samara to pull field, i would be launching warp explosions instead of double reaves half the time.

Now to answer your numbered questions

1. Did I use reave 15 times on shepard or 15 times on shepard and samara combined? Either way, I just use what is the most effective ability at the time. A vanguard is probably the second or 3rd best reave class after sentinel and adept. Nonetheless, charge is an awesome ability and I use it more than any other ability.

2. I have not played a sentinel so your analysis may be correct.

3. Im using my shotgun with inferno ammo, squad cryo ammo, and charge quite often. I dont think a sentinel has these abilities.

4. Yes I am. I am simply playing what is effective. It is more effective for me to "soften" a horde of enemies before I charge in.

Anyways your critique is good, and is one of the reasons I made the Pull/Barrier video. For people who feel that reaving is not true to form for a vanguard they can use pull/barrier build which is just as powerful as a reave build if you have thane and miranda for warp explosions.

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 02 mars 2010 - 12:13 .

[sinosleep]

Of course you can't take credit for the pull build, being as several of us in the vanguard thread have been advocates of pull builds for a while already. Only difference being most of us are charge first pull second guys, whereas you seem to be more of a 50/50 guy. Even in my suicide run vid, I make liberal use of pull on the second set of valves cause it was easier to do than charge into that particular fight.

[Sabresandiego]

sinosleep wrote...

Of course you can't take credit for the pull build, being as several of us in the vanguard thread have been advocates of pull builds for a while already. Only difference being most of us are charge first pull second guys, whereas you seem to be more of a 50/50 guy. Even in my suicide run vid, I make liberal use of pull on the second set of valves cause it was easier to do than charge into that particular fight.

I definitely dont take credit for the pull/barrier build or any build for that matter. The only reason the Pull/Barrier build is as good or better than the reave build is because you can bring both Thane and Miranda and get tons of warp explosions. I think the reave build is more versatile and gives your more flexibility in your squad mates. I can bring Samara, Jacob, or Jack and pair them with Thane or Miranda for warp explosions in addition to my reaves. With the Pull/Barrier build Thane/Miranda is nearly always your most powerful squad.

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 02 mars 2010 - 12:30 .

[rumination888]

I believe if your squadmates/non-class defining ability takes up the majority of a video, then it is a video about that, rather than the class itself.
I believe if you want to show how to effectively play a class, you must make sure the class-defining ability is your most used ability and that you need to make most of the kills. If not, then your guide basically becomes a fundamental gameplay guide rather than a class guide.

Infact, I think this forum needs more gameplay fundamental guides rather than class guides(i don't make guides, so don't look at me). Thisisme8's battlefield guide would probably help people out a lot more than a class guide if its their first time playing on insanity.