335 réponses à ce sujet

[thisisme8]

The Pull/Barrier Vanguard usually has to lose another power, Cryo, while awesome in its awesomeness, is all you can really spare. Without Squad Ammo, its usefulness plummets, so there is 10 points for you to invest into Pull Field and drop whatever is left into Barrier.

[Sabresandiego]

thisisme8 wrote...

The Pull/Barrier Vanguard usually has to lose another power, Cryo, while awesome in its awesomeness, is all you can really spare. Without Squad Ammo, its usefulness plummets, so there is 10 points for you to invest into Pull Field and drop whatever is left into Barrier.

I have tested squad cryo and it is not worth dropping. 1 point in pull with squad cryo is far better than no squad cryo and pull field. Same deal with barrier, squad cryo is just better.

[RamsenC]

I personally prefer a longer duration pull to more shield on my barrier. The barrier will go down insanely fast either way. You are buying maybe a quarter of a second of time if you max barrier. The main purpose of the ability on insanity is for a quick shield fill up in non charge situations. The amount of overshield I get is not much of a concern to me since I'm not using it in conjunction with charge. Just try it and see if you notice much of a difference.



If you do use it in conjunction with charge I could see it being more useful since the charge shield bonus stacks with it, but the cooldown is too hefty to use it regularly without slowing you down majorly.

[RamsenC]

thisisme8 wrote...

The Pull/Barrier Vanguard usually has to lose another power, Cryo, while awesome in its awesomeness, is all you can really spare. Without Squad Ammo, its usefulness plummets, so there is 10 points for you to invest into Pull Field and drop whatever is left into Barrier.

So you have a beard now eh.

Anyways you can still get squad cryo if you get tier 3 pull (9s duration) and tier 1 barrier. I know everyone loves to have tier 4 abilities, but sometimes its not worth it. Going for pull field over cryo isn't a bad idea, but I'd rather have single target pull and cryo than just an AoE pull.

Modifié par RamsenC, 03 mars 2010 - 09:58 .

[Sabresandiego]

The cooldown on barrier does suck, but I discovered that barrier is actually perfect for a vanguard that uses pull when I was making my video. The reason for this is that time is relative. While barrier only give you about a second of protection, your standard shields only give you about a second too. You are basically increasing you shield time by 75% with 3 ranks of barrier. 1 second is alot. The cooldown makes it only worth using as precasted right before combat though, or if you are getting a "cannot charge" bug. Using barrier in combat is a huge mistake otherwise.

[RamsenC]

Sabresandiego wrote...

The cooldown on barrier does suck, but I discovered that barrier is actually perfect for a vanguard that uses pull when I was making my video. The reason for this is that time is relative. While barrier only give you about a second of protection, your standard shields only give you about a second too. You are basically increasing you shield time by 75% with 3 ranks of barrier. 1 second is alot. The cooldown makes it only worth using as precasted right before combat though, or if you are getting a "cannot charge" bug. Using barrier in combat is a huge mistake otherwise.

I don't even bother casting it in pre-combat. The only time I use it is when I'm behind cover in non-charge situations. When I'm behind cover slightly more shield time is not nearly as important. Of course after a charge even a millisecond of extra shield can save you, but I'm taking strictly non-charge situations. In these situations cover is usually very safe. Just pop out shoot a little bit, go back down cast barrier, pop back out and shoot some more. 

If you are getting squad cryo it's pretty much tier 3 pull/tier 1 barrier vs tier 3 barrier/tier 1 pull. Not a big enough deal to argue about it either way. Since these non-charge situations are not that common I prefer the longer duration pull since I use pull every single mission. Also you should really have 1 point in both for the vast majority of the game. I would say upgrading them is low priority compared to all your other abilities.

Modifié par RamsenC, 03 mars 2010 - 10:15 .

[Sabresandiego]

RamsenC wrote...

Sabresandiego wrote...

The cooldown on barrier does suck, but I discovered that barrier is actually perfect for a vanguard that uses pull when I was making my video. The reason for this is that time is relative. While barrier only give you about a second of protection, your standard shields only give you about a second too. You are basically increasing you shield time by 75% with 3 ranks of barrier. 1 second is alot. The cooldown makes it only worth using as precasted right before combat though, or if you are getting a "cannot charge" bug. Using barrier in combat is a huge mistake otherwise.

I don't even bother casting it in pre-combat. The only time I use it is when I'm behind cover in non-charge situations. When I'm behind cover slightly more shield time is not nearly as important. Of course after a charge even a millisecond of extra shield can save you, but I'm taking strictly non-charge situations. In these situations cover is usually very safe. Just pop out shoot a little bit, go back down cast barrier, pop back out and shoot some more. 

If you are getting squad cryo it's pretty much tier 3 pull/tier 1 barrier vs tier 3 barrier/tier 1 pull. Not a big enough deal to argue about it either way. 

On a sidenote, do you know if there is a way to rename your saves or set the game to restart a mission and choose different squadmates? I want to make more videos and even though I saved at the beginning of every mission I am finding myself stuck with the same squadmates and the same talent build.

[sinosleep]

Sabresandiego wrote...
On a sidenote, do you know if there is a way to rename your saves or set the game to restart a mission and choose different squadmates? I want to make more videos and even though I saved at the beginning of every mission I am finding myself stuck with the same squadmates and the same talent build.

That's precisely why all my saves are on the normandy just before a mission, as opposed to at the beginning of the missions themselves. So I can respec and choose different squad mates at will. The only mission that negatively impacts is the suicide run since you have to do the hull breach and all that other nonsense before it starts in earnest. 

Modifié par sinosleep, 03 mars 2010 - 10:19 .

[RamsenC]

Sabresandiego wrote...

On a sidenote, do you know if there is a way to rename your saves or set the game to restart a mission and choose different squadmates? I want to make more videos and even though I saved at the beginning of every mission I am finding myself stuck with the same squadmates and the same talent build.

Damn your quick reply I made edits

Not sure about renaming your save though. The game might not recognize it as a save if you rename it, but I'm not entirely sure. You could just keep a save at the start of every mission. Once you start that mission you get the option of restart mission at the top of the load save screen. For example if I load an old "Disabled Collector Ship" save, I get the mission restart option on the load page. It just overwrites your old restart mission save. 

edit: The save on the ship is also nice for respecs, but they are all called Normandy so its gets confusing. 

Modifié par RamsenC, 03 mars 2010 - 10:22 .

[sinosleep]

RamsenC wrote...
Damn your quick reply I made edits

Not sure about renaming your save though. The game might not recognize it as a save if you rename it, but I'm not entirely sure. You could just keep a save at the start of every mission. Once you start that mission you get the option of restart mission at the top of the load save screen. For example if I load an old "Disabled Collector Ship" save, I get the mission restart option on the load page. It just overwrites your old restart mission save. 

edit: The save on the ship is also nice for respecs, but they are all called Normandy and its gets confusing. 

Um are you sure about that RamsenC? I have NEVER had a restart mission save show up from loading a save from the beginning of a mission. Only time it ever overwrites it is when I do it from the normandy. 

[Sabresandiego]

sinosleep wrote...

Sabresandiego wrote...
On a sidenote, do you know if there is a way to rename your saves or set the game to restart a mission and choose different squadmates? I want to make more videos and even though I saved at the beginning of every mission I am finding myself stuck with the same squadmates and the same talent build.

That's precisely why all my saves are on the normandy just before a mission, as opposed to at the beginning of the missions themselves. So I can respec and choose different squad mates at will. The only mission that negatively impacts is the suicide run since you have to do the hull breach and all that other nonsense before it starts in earnest. 

Well thats even more reason to start my 3rd vanguard playthrough. I am actually pretty excited about using pull/barrier instead of reave. Although its great having all your talents to start, Insanity+ is really annoying in the early game when everyone you fight is fully upgraded while you arent and it takes an hour to kill them.

[Sabresandiego]

sinosleep wrote...

RamsenC wrote...
Damn your quick reply I made edits

Not sure about renaming your save though. The game might not recognize it as a save if you rename it, but I'm not entirely sure. You could just keep a save at the start of every mission. Once you start that mission you get the option of restart mission at the top of the load save screen. For example if I load an old "Disabled Collector Ship" save, I get the mission restart option on the load page. It just overwrites your old restart mission save. 

edit: The save on the ship is also nice for respecs, but they are all called Normandy and its gets confusing. 

Um are you sure about that RamsenC? I have NEVER had a restart mission save show up from loading a save from the beginning of a mission. Only time it ever overwrites it is when I do it from the normandy. 

Ya thats the problem, I figured the restart mission button would show up and thats why I saved at the beginning of every mission. Little did I know that you had to actually save in the normandy before the mission for the restart mission button to work! Now I have 50 useless saves all with reave and bad teamate combos.

[thisisme8]

So check this out. I've been running around with Jack almost exclusively recently because I want to test and make sure that it isn't an isolated event on just certain maps, but her Shockwave + Pull is a thousand times better than any number of points in Barrier. Bring Grunt with his shotgun for more control. So:



If you can micromanage well enough, you can trade the spike damage from Squaddie Warp/Reave for some massive CC with Shockwave/Pull and Concussive Shot/Krogan Charge. It's astonishing how useful those abilities can be even against defended opponents. The stagger effects last about 3s, which is much better than Barrier's 1. You gain more than you lose. Any ability that has AoE and staggers if fine, but the Shockwave from Jack is huge.



Lined up properly, you can stagger everyone for 3 seconds. That's half the time for a vanilla Charge, and leaves a little over a second of vulnerability to a maxed Charge with some research. Plus, you still have your second Squadmate for any other help.



Like I said, you lose spike damage, but the amount of chaos it brings to the table is worth it for me. I have no problem causing damage, I want something to shake things up while I'm waiting for that cooldown.

[RamsenC]

sinosleep wrote...

Um are you sure about that RamsenC? I have NEVER had a restart mission save show up from loading a save from the beginning of a mission. Only time it ever overwrites it is when I do it from the normandy. 

You're right I'm a dummy, must have been loading on the normandy. You could keep track of what area each numbered save is before, but that's seems like a pain. 

[Sabresandiego]

thisisme8 wrote...

So check this out. I've been running around with Jack almost exclusively recently because I want to test and make sure that it isn't an isolated event on just certain maps, but her Shockwave + Pull is a thousand times better than any number of points in Barrier. Bring Grunt with his shotgun for more control. So:

If you can micromanage well enough, you can trade the spike damage from Squaddie Warp/Reave for some massive CC with Shockwave/Pull and Concussive Shot/Krogan Charge. It's astonishing how useful those abilities can be even against defended opponents. The stagger effects last about 3s, which is much better than Barrier's 1. You gain more than you lose. Any ability that has AoE and staggers if fine, but the Shockwave from Jack is huge.

Lined up properly, you can stagger everyone for 3 seconds. That's half the time for a vanilla Charge, and leaves a little over a second of vulnerability to a maxed Charge with some research. Plus, you still have your second Squadmate for any other help.

Like I said, you lose spike damage, but the amount of chaos it brings to the table is worth it for me. I have no problem causing damage, I want something to shake things up while I'm waiting for that cooldown.

Shockwaving targets with full defenses? Isnt the only benefit a brief stagger?

[Sabresandiego]

Considering all your saves are on the Normandy, how do you know which saves are where? trial and error?

[sinosleep]

I have a pretty rigid mission structure so I'm pretty good about remembering around what times what missions should be coming up. I also make sure I always save in the cluster the mission I'm going to do is in so it's easy to figure out. Although some trial and error is required I can usually find the save I'm looking for within 3 tries. 

Modifié par sinosleep, 03 mars 2010 - 10:32 .

[RamsenC]

thisisme8 wrote...

So check this out. I've been running around with Jack almost exclusively recently because I want to test and make sure that it isn't an isolated event on just certain maps, but her Shockwave + Pull is a thousand times better than any number of points in Barrier. Bring Grunt with his shotgun for more control. So:

If you can micromanage well enough, you can trade the spike damage from Squaddie Warp/Reave for some massive CC with Shockwave/Pull and Concussive Shot/Krogan Charge. It's astonishing how useful those abilities can be even against defended opponents. The stagger effects last about 3s, which is much better than Barrier's 1. You gain more than you lose. Any ability that has AoE and staggers if fine, but the Shockwave from Jack is huge.

Lined up properly, you can stagger everyone for 3 seconds. That's half the time for a vanilla Charge, and leaves a little over a second of vulnerability to a maxed Charge with some research. Plus, you still have your second Squadmate for any other help.

Like I said, you lose spike damage, but the amount of chaos it brings to the table is worth it for me. I have no problem causing damage, I want something to shake things up while I'm waiting for that cooldown.

Are you saying Jack has a better version of shockwave or am I misreading. Also wouldn't Thane be better than grunt, since he has throw and warp. One downside to picking squad mates with ammo types is they will constantly switch off cryo ammo so you might as well not use it. 

[thisisme8]

Sabresandiego wrote...

Shockwaving targets with full defenses? Isnt the only benefit a brief stagger?

Depends. 
Brief stagger = about 3s.  Barrier = 1s.
Barrier = my cooldown  Shockwave = Jack's cooldown
Shockwave = Stagger + knocked out of cover + Cone effect = better than AoE
Jack = Shockwave + Pull Field = two possible Pull Fields
Pulled targets = better Squad AI + 100% more damage

...or Warp.  Meh.

[RamsenC]

You can't really compare shockwave to barrier since they are used in completely different situations. One is used right before a charge and the other is used when you can't charge.

[thisisme8]

RamsenC wrote...

You can't really compare shockwave to barrier since they are used in completely different situations. One is used right before a charge and the other is used when you can't charge.

That's just the thing.  I never use Shockwave right before a Charge.  I use it (well I use it for about 1000 reasons) when I need to distract, stagger, cause general chaos, which is usually when I'm in the thick of things.  See, spike damage powers are best used before you Charge (or while I Charge), CC or general "shake things up" powers are used when needed or in the thick of things.

Totally not Vanguard related, but have you seen my Advanced Positioning vid yet?


Edit:  Ah, I see you noticed the sudden manliness of my Avatar.  Modeled after myself, of course.

Modifié par thisisme8, 03 mars 2010 - 10:43 .

[RamsenC]

thisisme8 wrote...

RamsenC wrote...

You can't really compare shockwave to barrier since they are used in completely different situations. One is used right before a charge and the other is used when you can't charge.

That's just the thing.  I never use Shockwave right before a Charge.  I use it (well I use it for about 1000 reasons) when I need to distract, stagger, cause general chaos, which is usually when I'm in the thick of things.  See, spike damage powers are best used before you Charge (or while I Charge), CC or general "shake things up" powers are used when needed or in the thick of things.

Totally not Vanguard related, but have you seen my Advanced Positioning vid yet?


Edit:  Ah, I see you noticed the sudden manliness of my Avatar.  Modeled after myself, of course.

I thought you were saying to use it before a charge to take advantage of the stagger. Still not understanding why Jack's shockwave is awesome for Vanguard. That positioning video was awesome, but Vanguard moves around so much that it doesn't really work the same way. I need to see a video of a vanguard making good use of Jack's shockwave on defended enemies.

Did Jack constantly switch off squad cryo for warp ammo? Also your beard needs braids 

Modifié par RamsenC, 03 mars 2010 - 10:51 .

[mikkon463]

Well you've all certainly given me a lot to think about. My Vanguard is about to head into the suicide mission and I was up in the air about how to allocate her powers, since I've got eez0 aplenty and want to perfect my abilities (based on how I use them) before I hit the relay. Thanks.

[mikkon463]

Perhaps you folks could answer this question for me.  I've posted this as a thread but not gotten many responses:

My Vanguard has been getting creamed lately.  I've decided that I need a
defensive biotic ability, but I can't decide between Barrier or Reave.
 I've playtested both extensively so far.  I find Reave handy in that
it's both a defensive and offensive ability, but very short and
ineffective in a long battle.  Barrier I've found to be more effective
in longer battles, but limits my offense, and to be truly effective, it
has to be maxed, which means that I have to shaft points from Pull
altogether, and thus, hamper my ability to get the Tactics achievement
with biotic combos.  Area Reave doesn't seem to do much either, and
again, to max it I have to shaft Pull.  I've got Charge and Shockwave
maxed, and there's no way I'm giving either of those up.  Thoughts? 

[thisisme8]

RamsenC wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...

So check this out. I've been running around with Jack almost exclusively recently because I want to test and make sure that it isn't an isolated event on just certain maps, but her Shockwave + Pull is a thousand times better than any number of points in Barrier. Bring Grunt with his shotgun for more control. So:

If you can micromanage well enough, you can trade the spike damage from Squaddie Warp/Reave for some massive CC with Shockwave/Pull and Concussive Shot/Krogan Charge. It's astonishing how useful those abilities can be even against defended opponents. The stagger effects last about 3s, which is much better than Barrier's 1. You gain more than you lose. Any ability that has AoE and staggers if fine, but the Shockwave from Jack is huge.

Lined up properly, you can stagger everyone for 3 seconds. That's half the time for a vanilla Charge, and leaves a little over a second of vulnerability to a maxed Charge with some research. Plus, you still have your second Squadmate for any other help.

Like I said, you lose spike damage, but the amount of chaos it brings to the table is worth it for me. I have no problem causing damage, I want something to shake things up while I'm waiting for that cooldown.

Are you saying Jack has a better version of shockwave or am I misreading. Also wouldn't Thane be better than grunt, since he has throw and warp. One downside to picking squad mates with ammo types is they will constantly switch off cryo ammo so you might as well not use it. 

I really like Grunt.  Given the AR, he is very reasonable about maintaining his cover where I tell him and doing a good job of chillin' and shooting.  Switch him to the Shotty and his effective range decreses so he usually pops out of cover and starts trolling the battlefield, more than likely following enemies around who just so happen to be following me around.

Thane/Garrus are used quite the opposite.  Place them somewhere with an AR and give them breathing room to maneuver and still remain a little back and they are ok.  Or give them a sniper rifle, keep them back and just let them snipe away...  safely.  I also prefer Thane's Throw to his Warp these days.  I'm really moving away from spike damage to see how much I lose, and it feels like I'm not really losing anything.  Hell, Warp works against health too, but so does every other power in the game.