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[Barquiel]

Gill Kaiser wrote...

Mox Ruuga wrote...

Tali is the only damsel in distress.

Every time Shepard meets her, her ass needs saving. Then there's the mess with the trial.

I guess her neediness and helplessness is part of her appeal to her... fans?

...except she's not helpless. Every time she needs saving, she's already fighting the overwhelming odds herself, not sitting there like a lemon. Liara's far more of a damsel.

She doesn't fight on Haelstom (her team did)

[Mox Ruuga]

Gill Kaiser wrote...

Mox Ruuga wrote...

Tali is the only damsel in distress.

Every time Shepard meets her, her ass needs saving. Then there's the mess with the trial.

I guess her neediness and helplessness is part of her appeal to her... fans?

...except she's not helpless. Every time she needs saving, she's already fighting the overwhelming odds herself, not sitting there like a lemon. Liara's far more of a damsel.

Lol.

Like she fought against that YMIR, even more galling since she's supposedly a "tech expert"? Or against the geth, while another squad she was "commanding" was slaughtered? Or the brilliant defense she made for herself against the treason accusations? I'll give her the alley fight against Saren's thugs, she was scrappy in that encounter. But any other time, she's meek and helpless, gets her own people killed needlessly, and has to rely on Shepard to pull her ass out of the fire. Every. Single. Time.

Talimancers can keep ragging on the ME1 Liara all they want. Liara not helping against the Battle Master = Tali not helping against the YMIR. Fair's fair.  

I have to wonder... Why is this part of her character so difficult for you all to swallow? Have you put the fetish object on some silly pedestal?

[SurfaceBeneath]

Kelly is a pretty big damsel in distress too, I hadn't even thought about her.

[Gill Kaiser]

Barquiel wrote...

Gill Kaiser wrote...

Mox Ruuga wrote...

Tali is the only damsel in distress.

Every time Shepard meets her, her ass needs saving. Then there's the mess with the trial.

I guess her neediness and helplessness is part of her appeal to her... fans?

...except she's not helpless. Every time she needs saving, she's already fighting the overwhelming odds herself, not sitting there like a lemon. Liara's far more of a damsel.

She doesn't fight on Haelstom (her team did)

She still fought her way there. Plus, that was a recon mission, and getting the data was the most important thing. I have no doubt that if Shepard hadn't turned up, Tali would have suicidally attempted to fight the Colossus and save Kal'Reegar.

[SurfaceBeneath]

Barquiel wrote...

Gill Kaiser wrote...

Mox Ruuga wrote...

Tali is the only damsel in distress.

Every time Shepard meets her, her ass needs saving. Then there's the mess with the trial.

I guess her neediness and helplessness is part of her appeal to her... fans?

...except she's not helpless. Every time she needs saving, she's already fighting the overwhelming odds herself, not sitting there like a lemon. Liara's far more of a damsel.

She doesn't fight on Haelstom (her team did)

There are several dead Geth in the room she's located in and she's just trying to upload her files to the fleet because she wants that mission to mean something. I get the feeling she didn't expect to be saved at all there and was more than willing to die for the fleet.

Again, the Damsel in Distress isn't so much defined by being saved, but what she's doing when she gets saved and their relationship with the protagonist character.

And Tali's pretty much dead center in my list of favorite ME2 characters, so this isn't coming from someone with any especial fondness for the character.

[Poisonedblades]

Liara hands down. The biggest key to the damsel in distress view is that the female is powerless to save herself. Tali quite clearly states that she could have handled the assassins in ME1. And in ME2 she is not a damsel in distress on haelstrom for the reason that while she is helpless to save herself, she is also in a position where an entire squad of Quarian marines could not save her either, so it gives players a tool with which to measure the equality of the male and female Quarian sexes. Liara is just trapped in a volcano, though i suppose you could make the point that there really is no male gender in the species, so an asari cant really qualify for the damsel in distress perspective either. However because asari emulate female behavior and mannerisms, the next closest thing you can relate to them are males of another species.

[Barquiel]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Again, the Damsel in Distress isn't so much defined by being saved, but what she's doing when she gets saved and their relationship with the protagonist character.

ok: it seems that we have different definitions of "damsel in distress"

- Liara would die on Therum without Shepard (or the Krogan would "rescue" her)

- Tali can't defend herself in ME1 (Shepard has 3? minutes to save her) and she would die on Haelstrom (Tali vs  Geth Coloss)
  I am not sure about freedoms progress (Tali vs YMIR)

Modifié par Barquiel, 27 février 2010 - 11:06 .

[Tazzamann]

Poisonedblades wrote...

The biggest key to the damsel in distress view is that the female is powerless to save herself. Tali quite clearly states that she could have handled the assassins in ME1.

well she was wrong then, because if you dont get to her in time she dies.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Vaenier wrote...

Liara. She was stuck all alone in a bubble inside a volcano surrounded by Geth on an abandoned planet in a deserted star cluster on the edge of the galaxy. Doesnt get much more in trouble...

Haha. I loved this one. It's true.

[Vamp44]

Tali.

[Decurian]

Barquiel wrote...


ok: it seems that we have different definitions of "damsel in distress"

- Liara would die on Therum without Shepard (or the Krogan would "rescue" her)

- Tali can't defend herself in ME1 (Shepard has 3? minutes to save her) and she would die on Haelstrom (Tali vs  Geth Coloss)
  I am not sure about freedoms progress (Tali vs YMIR)

Don't agree. The game doesn't support some of  these suppositions.

Tali is defending herself in that serviceway in ME1. Tossing a grenade, then hauling iron to shoot at her attackers is defending herself. She's overmatched, but she's in there swinging.

Freedom's Progress has nothing to do with the original question. Prazza's stupidity precipitates the whole situation. Tali is acting as support for Shepard's team. The quarian team was never supposed to be involved with the mechs at all.

Haestrom is the only situation where the initial question holds true. Even there, Shepard is a wildcard. The quarian marines were the only people Tali knew were out there trying to help her.

[Wynne]

Wikipedia:

The subject of the damsel in distress, or persecuted maiden, is a classic theme in world literature, art, and film. She is usually a beautiful young woman placed in a dire predicament by a villain or a monster and who requires a hero to dash to her rescue. She has become a stock character of fiction, particularly of melodrama.

The word "damsel" derives from the French demoiselle meaning "young lady". It is an archaic term not used in modern English except for effect or in expressions such as this, which can be traced back to the knight errant of Medieval songs and tales, who regarded the saving of such women as an essential part of his raison d'être.

The helplessness of the damsel in distress, who can be portrayed as foolish and ineffectual to the point of naïvety, along with her need for others to rescue her, has made the stereotype the target of feminist criticism.

ME1 Liara is the worst by far--anyone who thinks otherwise hasn't read the definition--but in ME2 she no longer fits that category.

Tali has weapons and fights in ME1 AND ME2. She already fails to be a damsel simply by trying and being able to fight at all (as does Ashley.) She is simply young and inexperienced at fighting in comparison with a veteran soldier like Shepard--and for a bloody mechanic she does pretty damned well at a soldier's work. She is no more a damsel than Garrus, whom you also save from being killed, or Kaidan, whom FemShep must PICK UP and CARRY to the ship. 

Calling Tali or Ashley a damsel is utter stupid nonsense. You don't know the definition of damsel in distress if you think that. Read it again.

Modifié par Wynne, 27 février 2010 - 11:58 .

[Barquiel]

"beautiful young woman" is debatable



The situation on healstrom fits your definition imo

[Habelo]

Jack. All she need is a friend, and she has none

[The Capital Gaultier]

 Liara acts the part, but Tali manages to get herself in trouble more often.  We'll see how Liara performs in ME3...:happy:

[Wynne]

Barquiel--Except for the tons of MALE quarian marines who get outright SLAUGHTERED and Kal'Reegar needing Shepard's help in order to survive. Tali's no more a damsel than he is.

Haestrom is a massacre, period. You could make a case for "quarians are wusses," but simply and flatly NOT for Tali being a damsel. She did not get herself into that situation by her own foolishness, she was ordered to go there by her jerkass admirals. She is not helplessly cowering in need of a savior, she's grimly carrying out her duty. And she is still packing heat and prepared to defend herself.

You're reaching, and way too far. Really don't get the Tali hate on these forums. Are the fanboys that annoying?

Modifié par Wynne, 27 février 2010 - 12:14 .

[Marta Rio]

Can we expand this discussion to include female character archetypes in general?  (Otherwise it's really just "Liara is, no Tali is, no Liara is, no Tali is" ad infinitum.)

I agree with previous posters that Liara and Tali both have their own damsel in distress moments, although I think I'd tend to saddle them with the following labels:

ME1 Liara: naive ingenue
ME2 Liara: ice queen (a 180 from ME1, but whatevs)
Tali: girl next door

And while I'm at it, the other ladies:
Ashley: tomboy
Jack: bad girl
Miranda: prom queen
Samara: samurai (I  guess it's not technically a female archtype...but hey look how they start with the same 3 letters/sound nearly the same.)
Morinth: black widow
Chakwas: mother figure or MILF (depending on your proclivities)
Kelly: flirt

Feel free to agree/disagree/ignore me completely.

[mcvxiii]

ME1 - Liara and Tali

ME2 - Tali



Ashely's distress is psychological not situational.

[Tazzamann]

I think people might be reading to much into this, surely a damsel in distress is a woman needing to be saved? We can get technical and pedantic about it, but wether or not talis out there fgihting the good fight like the crazy gal she is, shepard needs to rescue her. A lot. Not just from the geth, or Sarens thugs, but in her trial as well. I like Tali, but she gets herself into sh*tloads of trouble. Or is at least ordered into it, regardless she is a damsel (a woman) in distress (needing help). All of the characters needs shepards help at some stage, Tali probably needs it more often than most.

[Mox Ruuga]

Tazzamann wrote...

I think people might be reading to much into this, surely a damsel in distress is a woman needing to be saved? We can get technical and pedantic about it, but wether or not talis out there fgihting the good fight like the crazy gal she is, shepard needs to rescue her. A lot. Not just from the geth, or Sarens thugs, but in her trial as well. I like Tali, but she gets herself into sh*tloads of trouble. Or is at least ordered into it, regardless she is a damsel (a woman) in distress (needing help). All of the characters needs shepards help at some stage, Tali probably needs it more often than most.

Damsel in Distress is not considered a positive quality in female characters.

That's why the Talimancers are so keen to try and prop up Liara as the "real" damsel, and ignoring all the trouble Tali gets into. Despite Liara having only one "damsel" moment compared to Tali's four. And Liara actually rescuing Shepard in the comic (even though GrimDarking her character basically destroyed Liara for me).

It doesn't fit into their vision of the "perfect" Tali, I guess.

Similarly, Garrus is by far the bigger whiner, comparing him and Kaidan, and despite this, because Garrus is considered cooler than Kaidan by fanboys (and Garrus fangirls), the unfortunate Mr. Alenko gets slammed as being "whiny". Due to sharing a voice actor with a character they hated in the KOTOR games.

[The Capital Gaultier]

Tazzamann wrote...

I think people might be reading to much into this, surely a damsel in distress is a woman needing to be saved? We can get technical and pedantic about it, but wether or not talis out there fgihting the good fight like the crazy gal she is, shepard needs to rescue her. A lot. Not just from the geth, or Sarens thugs, but in her trial as well. I like Tali, but she gets herself into sh*tloads of trouble. Or is at least ordered into it, regardless she is a damsel (a woman) in distress (needing help). All of the characters needs shepards help at some stage, Tali probably needs it more often than most.

A damsel in distress is an archetype that extends beyond being a woman in trouble.  She should also be helpless - sometimes even causing problems for the rescuer.  She can't be someone like Ashley who joins Shepard and immediately commits to the mission, in other words.

[Barquiel]

Wynne wrote...

Barquiel--Except for the tons of MALE quarian marines who get outright SLAUGHTERED and Kal'Reegar needing Shepard's help in order to survive. Tali's no more a damsel than he is.

Haestrom is a massacre, period. You could make a case for "quarians are wusses," but simply and flatly NOT for Tali being a damsel. She did not get herself into that situation by her own foolishness, she was ordered to go there by her jerkass admirals. She is not helplessly cowering in need of a savior, she's grimly carrying out her duty. And she is still packing heat and prepared to defend herself.

You're reaching, and way too far. Really don't get the Tali hate on these forums. Are the fanboys that annoying?

Kal'Reegar defends himself/tries to rescue Tali,

- young woman? yes
- dire predicament? yes
- monster or villain? yes (Geth Coloss)
- requires a hero to dash to her rescue? yes (Kal'Reegar, Shepard)
- helplessness? yes (she locked herself in a room)
- foolish/naïve? no (but Liara wasn't naïve/foolish either, the barrier was her only hope to survive/escape the geth)

[Tazzamann]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Tazzamann wrote...

I think people might be reading to much into this, surely a damsel in distress is a woman needing to be saved? We can get technical and pedantic about it, but wether or not talis out there fgihting the good fight like the crazy gal she is, shepard needs to rescue her. A lot. Not just from the geth, or Sarens thugs, but in her trial as well. I like Tali, but she gets herself into sh*tloads of trouble. Or is at least ordered into it, regardless she is a damsel (a woman) in distress (needing help). All of the characters needs shepards help at some stage, Tali probably needs it more often than most.

A damsel in distress is an archetype that extends beyond being a woman in trouble.  She should also be helpless - sometimes even causing problems for the rescuer.  She can't be someone like Ashley who joins Shepard and immediately commits to the mission, in other words.

 I dont tink ashley is a damsel in  distress, i think Tali is because either way you look at it, she gets in a lot iof trouble she cant get out of without sheprds help.

[Deviija]

Shiala is the biggest damsel in distress, IMO.

[Mox Ruuga]

Deviija wrote...

Shiala is the biggest damsel in distress, IMO.

Yes, good call. Forgot about her. See Talimancers, a character I think is awesome, and yet have no problem acknowledging as being a "DiD". Two games, two times Shepard has to white knight for her. Or... kill her.

Not as constant as Tali, but up there with her.