187 réponses à ce sujet

[FlintlockJazz]

@Balerion and SurfaceBeneath, I agree with both you guys.  Either many of the haters either never tried Obsidian's other games or they just didn't realise the connection between Black Isle and Obsidian.  Of course, I for a while thought that it was Black Isle that made Baldur's Gate and Bioware that published the game, getting the two mixed up for quite a while, so it I can understand them getting confused!

Never did get round to actually playing IWD to be honest though, got the full set on a shelf right above my computer though with plans on correcting that, once I'm finally finished playing through ME2 for millionth time of course.

[BellaStrega]

Balerion84 wrote...

BellaStrega wrote...


Well, I definitely find Torment and the Icewind Dale games still as playable now as they were when they were new.

Admittedly, IWD2 is not my favorite...

Icewind Dale games were always pretty much more action oriented versions of Baldur's Gate. I agree that IWD2 wasn't as good as the first one, but it's still very good.
And I don't think I have to talk about the greatness of Planescape Torment or the original Fallout games.
I have this weird feeling the haters never touched those games.

I enjoyed IWD a lot, enjoyed IWD2 less. But no, it wasn't bad.

OTOH, I had just installed all of the IE games a few hours ago, and i did spend the past hour or so playing IWD2, and the intro was more involved and interesting than I remembered.

[BellaStrega]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

I loved exploring Morrowind, but yea, I never finished it either. Did put at least 60 hours into it though and I do consider it a very very good game.

Oblivion was.... eh... I was amazed by the game for the first 10 hours due to the level of detail in the environment and then after that point I just fell asleep playing it.

I put a ridiculous amount of time into Morrowind. I was sad when I upgraded my computer and my save files crashed on loading. I actually did finish Morrowind and the two expansions, at least the main quests. There's a lot of stuff I never did get around to, though.

[BellaStrega]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

@Balerion and SurfaceBeneath, I agree with both you guys.  Either many of the haters either never tried Obsidian's other games or they just didn't realise the connection between Black Isle and Obsidian.  Of course, I for a while thought that it was Black Isle that made Baldur's Gate and Bioware that published the game, getting the two mixed up for quite a while, so it I can understand them getting confused!

Never did get round to actually playing IWD to be honest though, got the full set on a shelf right above my computer though with plans on correcting that, once I'm finally finished playing through ME2 for millionth time of course.

The weird thing about IWD is that it came out close to the same time as Diablo 2, and I think that sucked up a lot of the attention it could have received, despite the two being rather different games, only superficially being similar in terms of action-oriented RPG (with more emphasis on action for Diablo 2, more on RPG for IWD, but still more action than BG2, which came out a few months after).

[Besetment]

Yeah I don't get this. Kotor 2 was decent in its own right but it was definitely unfinished and it shows. If you  haven't played it in a long time I recommend watching Scorchy's (excellent) lets play of Kotor 2 because hes really good at pointing out all the little things that made Kotor 2 great.

Check it out here:
lparchive.org/LetsPlay/KOTOR%202/

There have been fan patches (not Team Gizka) that partially restore some of the lost content because there was so much of it on the disk when it was released. Apart from the ending this was one of the indicators that the game was gutted to meet publishing deadlines since theres alot of voicework that goes unused. Some of that has now been restored but some of the content is also clearly unfinished and underdeveloped so it doesn't always sit right.

I prefered Kotor 2 to the first game but I can totally go along with the idea that Bioware are masters of polish. They can take the most hackneyed, cliched concept and just polish and QA it to such a brilliant shine that you just don't care about its failings anymore. Thats part of the reason why they are such a successful developer. Obsidian have always had the talent but for whatever reason they just couldn't and didn't bring the polish consistently. Its the same deal with Troika but more so since Troika had all the talent in the world but buried themselves because they kept releasing unfinished buggy games and their QA was awful.

But the Obsidian hate I don't get. I'd like to point out that Mask of the Betrayer (the expansion to NWN2) is easily one of the best rpgs of the past 10 years and you really should play it because its awesome. I say this as a person that didn't particularly like NWN2 or NWN either.

Modifié par Besetment, 02 mars 2010 - 02:25 .

[FlintlockJazz]

BellaStrega wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

@Balerion and SurfaceBeneath, I agree with both you guys.  Either many of the haters either never tried Obsidian's other games or they just didn't realise the connection between Black Isle and Obsidian.  Of course, I for a while thought that it was Black Isle that made Baldur's Gate and Bioware that published the game, getting the two mixed up for quite a while, so it I can understand them getting confused!

Never did get round to actually playing IWD to be honest though, got the full set on a shelf right above my computer though with plans on correcting that, once I'm finally finished playing through ME2 for millionth time of course.

The weird thing about IWD is that it came out close to the same time as Diablo 2, and I think that sucked up a lot of the attention it could have received, despite the two being rather different games, only superficially being similar in terms of action-oriented RPG (with more emphasis on action for Diablo 2, more on RPG for IWD, but still more action than BG2, which came out a few months after).

Aye, I think it kind of fell between the crack between Diablo 2 and BG2, since they were the big names and ate up the market from either end of the spectrum.  Strangely seems to happen alot in the RPG market, its like there's barely anything at all for quite a while, and then they suddenly release a whole pack of them in big splurge.  Same thing happened to Ego Draconis, got released at more or less the same time as DAO and so obviously didn't get much attention.

[Balerion84]

Besetment wrote...


Check it out here:
lparchive.org/LetsPlay/KOTOR%202/

From that site:
Last week, on KOTOR I...
The Mandalorians declare war on the Republic; the Jedi council, being sanctimonius pricks, officially refuse to involve themselves, and the war goes poorly for the Republic. Eventually a group of rogue Jedi led by Revan join the Republic fleet and the Mandalorians are finally defeated.

Wait. Doesn't that sounds familiar?
Like:
Last week, on KOTOR I...
The Mandalorians Reapers/Collectors declare war starts attacks on the Republic humanity; the Jedi Council, being sanctimonius pricks, officially refuse to involve themselves, and the war goes poorly for the Republic Alliance. Eventually a group of (rogue) Jedi Spectre led by Revan Shepard join the Republic fleet humanity (Cerberus) and the Mandalorians Collectors are finally defeated. 


 

Modifié par Balerion84, 02 mars 2010 - 02:32 .

[Ryzaki]

Balerion84 wrote...

Besetment wrote...


Check it out here:
lparchive.org/LetsPlay/KOTOR%202/

From that site:
Last week, on KOTOR I...
The Mandalorians declare war on the Republic; the Jedi council, being sanctimonius pricks, officially refuse to involve themselves, and the war goes poorly for the Republic. Eventually a group of rogue Jedi led by Revan join the Republic fleet and the Mandalorians are finally defeated.

Wait. Doesn't that sounds familiar?
Like:
Last week, on KOTOR I...
The Mandalorians Reapers/Collectors declare war starts attacks on the Republic humanity; the Jedi Council, being sanctimonius pricks, officially refuse to involve themselves, and the war goes poorly for the Republic Alliance. Eventually a group of (rogue) Jedi Spectre led by Revan Shepard join the Republic fleet humanity (Cerberus) and the Mandalorians Collectors are finally defeated. 


 

LOL tis BioWare. What did you honenstly expect? 

[yoomazir]

TheTrooper1138 wrote...

no, KotOR 2 sucked, ME2 doesn't...

strange, for me it's the contrary.

[BellaStrega]

FlintlockJazz wrote...
Aye, I think it kind of fell between the crack between Diablo 2 and BG2, since they were the big names and ate up the market from either end of the spectrum.  Strangely seems to happen alot in the RPG market, its like there's barely anything at all for quite a while, and then they suddenly release a whole pack of them in big splurge.  Same thing happened to Ego Draconis, got released at more or less the same time as DAO and so obviously didn't get much attention.

Yeah, I'm going to play Ego Draconis soon. I only just found out about it, and it sounds pretty decent.

IWD is actually the game that got me hooked on Black Isle/Obsidian and Bioware*. I picked it up because Babbage's had an entire shelf of collector's editions. After I played it, I picked up Torment and Baldur's Gate, as well as both Fallouts.

Fun times. But yeah, I think IWD made a smaller ripple coming out between two very good, still loved games.

* The weird part is that I'd been playing Interplay games for years by this point, and somehow passed over the RPGs.

Modifié par BellaStrega, 02 mars 2010 - 02:39 .

[BellaStrega]

Besetment wrote...

Yeah I don't get this. Kotor 2 was decent in its own right but it was definitely unfinished and it shows. If you  haven't played it in a long time I recommend watching Scorchy's (excellent) lets play of Kotor 2 because hes really good at pointing out all the little things that made Kotor 2 great.

Check it out here:
lparchive.org/LetsPlay/KOTOR%202/

There have been fan patches (not Team Gizka) that partially restore some of the lost content because there was so much of it on the disk when it was released. Apart from the ending this was one of the indicators that the game was gutted to meet publishing deadlines since theres alot of voicework that goes unused. Some of that has now been restored but some of the content is also clearly unfinished and underdeveloped so it doesn't always sit right.

I prefered Kotor 2 to the first game but I can totally go along with the idea that Bioware are masters of polish. They can take the most hackneyed, cliched concept and just polish and QA it to such a brilliant shine that you just don't care about its failings anymore. Thats part of the reason why they are such a successful developer. Obsidian have always had the talent but for whatever reason they just couldn't and didn't bring the polish consistently. Its the same deal with Troika but more so since Troika had all the talent in the world but buried themselves because they kept releasing unfinished buggy games and their QA was awful.

But the Obsidian hate I don't get. I'd like to point out that Mask of the Betrayer (the expansion to NWN2) is easily one of the best rpgs of the past 10 years and you really should play it because its awesome. I say this as a person that didn't particularly like NWN2 or NWN either.

I agree with all of this. Except Mask, which I haven't finished and thus do not have a complete opinion on.

I think KOTOR 2 had a great, dark, mood established and held that mood most of the way through the game...even into the ending. Unfortunately, it didn't have a real climax.

Also, Darth Nihil was one of the creepiest video game villains ever.

[FlintlockJazz]

BellaStrega wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...
Aye, I think it kind of fell between the crack between Diablo 2 and BG2, since they were the big names and ate up the market from either end of the spectrum.  Strangely seems to happen alot in the RPG market, its like there's barely anything at all for quite a while, and then they suddenly release a whole pack of them in big splurge.  Same thing happened to Ego Draconis, got released at more or less the same time as DAO and so obviously didn't get much attention.

Yeah, I'm going to play Ego Draconis soon. I only just found out about it, and it sounds pretty decent.

IWD is actually the game that got me hooked on Black Isle/Obsidian and Bioware*. I picked it up because Babbage's had an entire shelf of collector's editions. After I played it, I picked up Torment and Baldur's Gate, as well as both Fallouts.

Fun times. But yeah, I think IWD made a smaller ripple coming out between two very good, still loved games.

* The weird part is that I'd been playing Interplay games for years by this point, and somehow passed over the RPGs.

It starts off a bit 'meh' and once you get past the tutorial section it does kind of dump you with little idea on what to do, but once you get past the start and learn the game some more it does get alot better.  There is one quest near the beginning that is incredible mundane (deliver a message), but which puts you in a real ethical quandry that doesn't have an answer that doesn't require upsetting someone, making you feel bad for them, and there are other quests whose best results come from rejecting the quest and then telling on them!   Quite liked that, as quests are usually a "You do them or you don't" kind of deal.  

I remember not being able to play Baldur's Gate when it first came out, as my computer was quite old at the time and couldn't even upgrade it to be able to run it, think I had to wait at least two years I think before I could.

[SurfaceBeneath]

FlintlockJazz wrote...
Of course, I for a while thought that it was Black Isle that made Baldur's Gate and Bioware that published the game, getting the two mixed up for quite a while, so it I can understand them getting confused!

Holy crap no way!

I literally thought the same thing for something like 8 years until my friend went on Wikipeida and proved me wrong. Up to that point, I always had thought that Black Isle had developed the first BG while Bioware did the second game.

[Balerion84]

Besetment wrote...


Check it out here:
lparchive.org/LetsPlay/KOTOR%202/

This (under, quote) is a good comment. It also shows a similarity with Kotor2 and ME2. Just like with Kotor1, you had a big twist, same with ME1.
That's probably one of the reasons why some people are dissing ME2 story, they were expecting another big twist.

This is a bit of meta-commentary. In the game notes it literally says that she’s making a reference to the fact there’s no “Luke, I am your father” moment in this game. This game has no great big twist like in KOTOR 1. It’s a series of little twists sure, but the point in the game when the big Revan moment would have occurred, is around when Kreia reveals herself as evil. That’s not a “holy ****” moment, more of a “that makes sense” thing. So here Kreia is just messing with the player’s expectations. They had come to Malachor thinking the truth was yet to be revealed, but the truth was what you knew all along, even if Kreia did a good job obfuscating it.

In a way this was a good thing; those big twists in stories can be a schtick, and only really work when you don’t expect it. I think they knew it would have been difficult to follow-up on Bioware’s plotting in KOTOR 1, and it probably wouldn’t have been a good idea to get into a rut of forcing a shocker into every KOTOR game. Take a look at M. Night Shyamalan, who wrote “The Sixth Sense” and “Unbreakable”. After those movies, he became the ‘plot twist’ guy; people came to see his movies just for the surprise. That’s a ****ty way to watch a movie, and it’s a ****ty way to write a movie; his films got progressively more and more unwatchable from trying to duck under audience expectations.

Perhaps it’s less memorable this way, but the strength on Obsidian games isn’t really plotting. It’s always been the writing.

[Balerion84]

ooops

Modifié par Balerion84, 02 mars 2010 - 03:00 .

[SurfaceBeneath]

Besetment wrote...
But the Obsidian hate I don't get. I'd like to point out that Mask of the Betrayer (the expansion to NWN2) is easily one of the best rpgs of the past 10 years and you really should play it because its awesome. I say this as a person that didn't particularly like NWN2 or NWN either.

+1

Mask of the Betrayer was brilliant. NWN2 was hit or miss, but MotB just hit all the right spots.

[Crysis I]

MajorStranger wrote...

Kotor 2 was made by Obsidian, not Bioware. Don't ever insult Bioware again!

implying kotor 2 wasnt superior in eveyway to the first one. the 2nd game was amazing now if lucasarts just let obsidion finish the game it would of been perfect.

[TheTrooper1138]

Balerion84 wrote...

Besetment wrote...


Check it out here:
lparchive.org/LetsPlay/KOTOR%202/

This (under, quote) is a good comment. It also shows a similarity with Kotor2 and ME2. Just like with Kotor1, you had a big twist, same with ME1.
That's probably one of the reasons why some people are dissing ME2 story, they were expecting another big twist.

This is a bit of meta-commentary. In the game notes it literally says that she’s making a reference to the fact there’s no “Luke, I am your father” moment in this game. This game has no great big twist like in KOTOR 1. It’s a series of little twists sure, but the point in the game when the big Revan moment would have occurred, is around when Kreia reveals herself as evil. That’s not a “holy ****” moment, more of a “that makes sense” thing. So here Kreia is just messing with the player’s expectations. They had come to Malachor thinking the truth was yet to be revealed, but the truth was what you knew all along, even if Kreia did a good job obfuscating it.

In a way this was a good thing; those big twists in stories can be a schtick, and only really work when you don’t expect it. I think they knew it would have been difficult to follow-up on Bioware’s plotting in KOTOR 1, and it probably wouldn’t have been a good idea to get into a rut of forcing a shocker into every KOTOR game. Take a look at M. Night Shyamalan, who wrote “The Sixth Sense” and “Unbreakable”. After those movies, he became the ‘plot twist’ guy; people came to see his movies just for the surprise. That’s a ****ty way to watch a movie, and it’s a ****ty way to write a movie; his films got progressively more and more unwatchable from trying to duck under audience expectations.

Perhaps it’s less memorable this way, but the strength on Obsidian games isn’t really plotting. It’s always been the writing.

the M. Night Shyamalan argument fails, since his best movie was undoubtetly Lady in the Water (though The Happening was his worst)... also Signs was awesome as well! 

[Crysis I]

mass effect 2 pisses all over mass effect.

[TheTrooper1138]

Crysis I wrote...

mass effect 2 pisses all over mass effect.

no.

[FlintlockJazz]

Righteo folks, thanks to the conversation in this thread I have finally got the drive to play Icewind Dale 1 and 2, which are currently installing as I type this.

[Grand_Commander13]

Revya wrote...

Kotor 2 was ok but I would have liked to continue the story of MY Revan.

Oh please.  Shepard has a great personality in ME, while Revan in the first KOTOR is nothing more than a blank slate for the player to self-project onto.  It's not until KOTOR 2 that you learn how awesome Revan is.  At least the Exile had some personality of her own.

[Captain C.Fingers]

I honestly called ME2 the second coming of KOTOR 2. Lol that said they're both orgasmic. Bioware has robbed the now dead Squaresoft of it's RPG throne without question.





The voice acting in Kotor 2 was phenominal. I still personally feel you can be a much more evil person in those games than Mass Effect 2 even.

[CmdrFenix83]

The *only* good thing about KotOR 2 was the improved skillsets. The prestige classes, etc. The story was crap. What do you expect from a game that came out ~6months after its' predecessor?



LucasArts said "KotOR was amazingly successful, we want a sequel by the end of the year!"



BioWare said "HAH, we can't put out a quality game in 6 months, development of a good game takes time."



LucasArts replied, "Fine, we'll give it to Obsidian then! We don't care if it's as good, it's a giant money bag waiting to be collected, we want to cash-in now!"

[ObserverStatus]

I actually noticed a few similarities between ME2 and Starcraft. The Council/Confederacy has become

corrupt and ineffective, ignoring the Reaper/Zerg threat. The only person willing to help you is TIM/Arcturus Mengsk, the charismatic leader of the terrorist organization Cerberus/Sons of Korhal. What will happen when Shepard/Raynor puts more power into the hands of TIM/Mengsk than he can be trusted with?