187 réponses à ce sujet

[Gatt9]

Captain C.Fingers wrote...

I honestly called ME2 the second coming of KOTOR 2. Lol that said they're both orgasmic. Bioware has robbed the now dead Squaresoft of it's RPG throne without question.


The voice acting in Kotor 2 was phenominal. I still personally feel you can be a much more evil person in those games than Mass Effect 2 even.

Disagree on the grounds that ME2 is not an RPG,  it's a shooter.  ME2 lacks pretty much every characteristic of an RPG,  and possesses pretty much every characteristic of a shooter.

Plus,  Square wasn't the king of RPG's,  Bioware was.  Major dent in that reputation now though...

[ImperialOperative]

Y'all are finding similarities between different sci-fi franchise stories/plots/lore?

Go on.

Modifié par ImperialOperative, 02 mars 2010 - 07:58 .

[BellaStrega]

Gatt9 wrote...

Disagree on the grounds that ME2 is not an RPG,  it's a shooter.  ME2 lacks pretty much every characteristic of an RPG,  and possesses pretty much every characteristic of a shooter.

Plus,  Square wasn't the king of RPG's,  Bioware was.  Major dent in that reputation now though...

Man, people will say anything to get some attention these days.

[Balerion84]

BellaStrega wrote...

Gatt9 wrote...

Disagree on the grounds that ME2 is not an RPG,  it's a shooter.  ME2 lacks pretty much every characteristic of an RPG,  and possesses pretty much every characteristic of a shooter.

Plus,  Square wasn't the king of RPG's,  Bioware was.  Major dent in that reputation now though...

Man, people will say anything to get some attention these days.

Unfortunately, your average gamer doesn't have a clue what RPG really means and what makes RPG an RPG. 

[BellaStrega]

Balerion84 wrote...

BellaStrega wrote...

Gatt9 wrote...

Disagree on the grounds that ME2 is not an RPG,  it's a shooter.  ME2 lacks pretty much every characteristic of an RPG,  and possesses pretty much every characteristic of a shooter.

Plus,  Square wasn't the king of RPG's,  Bioware was.  Major dent in that reputation now though...

Man, people will say anything to get some attention these days.

Unfortunately, your average gamer doesn't have a clue what RPG really means and what makes RPG an RPG. 

I  was fascinated to learn that shooters have character advancement and dialogue trees and RPGs do not.

[Grey_Spectre]

Kotor 2 and ME2 were both better than their original instalments, particularly with regards to writing and music. The dark and engaging atmosphere of Kotor 2 was fantastic, as was the morality blurring and pretty much everything Kreia said. She was a fantastic character.



I also liked how the PC 'got in bed with the bad guys' as it were in both games and how there was no clear centerpiece villain. Kreia was much more interesting than the one-dimensional Malak and TIM's mysterious nature made him much more unsettling than Saren.

[Tazzmission]

Grey_Spectre wrote...

Kotor 2 and ME2 were both better than their original instalments, particularly with regards to writing and music. The dark and engaging atmosphere of Kotor 2 was fantastic, as was the morality blurring and pretty much everything Kreia said. She was a fantastic character.

I also liked how the PC 'got in bed with the bad guys' as it were in both games and how there was no clear centerpiece villain. Kreia was much more interesting than the one-dimensional Malak and TIM's mysterious nature made him much more unsettling than Saren.

kotor 2 was trash and bioware didnt even make it dude. kotor 1 was the only good star wars rpg and that was from bioware. now if you ask me whats better mass effect 2 or the original knights of the old republic than i must say they break even. they both have solid game play

[Nibroc17]

Schneidend wrote...

TheTrooper1138 wrote...

The plot was rubbish... A "wound in the Force" (or what did they call the player)? Seriously, WTF? No, that was just stupid, add to that the fact, that the game was full of unfinished story lines and quests (droid factory) and the ending was an insult to the player! 
Also the choices you made in the first did not matter in the slightest... you could tell Atton that Revan was eviiil or good and a man or a woman... great, really... 
And don't tell me the twist in KotOR did not surprise you, that was one of the best (if not THE best) twists in video game history. That's because it was so well-written, you had all the information but would never have put it together like that. It still made all sense the next time you played the game from the beginning, knowing about the twist. That's one thing that made it so good. Another was the well-written characters (unlike KotOR 2, which had not one really interesting character... "ouh, look at me, I was eviiil once, because I killed some Jediii..." yeah right, go die somewhere, Atton, nobody cares about you, at least the first one had Bastila, Jolee and of course HK-47 - OK, he was the only good thing about the 2nd maybe).
Also I hated Kreia the moment I met her... why the hell did I have to follow her advice for the entire game, full well knowing from the first moment on, she was gonna betray me? No, KotOR 2 just sucked... 
OK, it had some small (!) improvements in the gameplay, but that didn't make up for the crappy story, crappy characters and bull**** ending...

Whether or not a character is interesting is purely subjective. I found the KotOR2 crew far more interesting than that of KotOR1. Jolee Bindo and Juhani were my only favorites that aren't in both games, while T3-M4 and HK-47 both thankfully made returns in the sequel. 

I liked Kreia because she was a mentor character, and I love mentor characters. She was all the more fun for me because she actually had interesting lessons. I didn't expect an Ayn Rand-like character in a Star Wars game. Once she told the story about being a Sith Lord, I pretty much knew she'd be a bad guy, but it was still cool to actually get to work with and learn from a former Sith Lord and not be forced to act like a Lawful Stupid Paladin and kill her as soon as she told her story.

And, while the KotOR twist did suprise me, its luster wore off quickly. Just about every soap opera in history has had a similar twist.

As to the ending and unfinished plots, well, it was an unfinished game. Obsidian had to chop the game apart at the last second to meet their advancing deadlines. Even still, I liked it a lot more than KotOR1. I played through it twice as many times, in fact.

Don't ever compare star wars to a soap opera again!!! It's a Space Opera!!!! Not anything like a soap opera!!!!!! You have just shamed your linage, time bandits will be sent to erase your ancestors from history.

[Nibroc17]

TheTrooper1138 wrote...

Schneidend wrote...

I haven't commented on the "Wound in the Force" plot point, myself, so I think I'll rectify that now. What exactly is so unbelievable about this? The Force is a magic energy, and is therefore susceptible to the same kind of esoteric damage that an "Arcane Weave" or "Spellflow" or "Mana," or whatever a setting calls its source of power, might be. I'm glad Obsidian made a story that was about what is easily the coolest aspect of the Star Wars universe, the Force and Force philosophy.

But THAT is not Star Wars. The Force is not based on "magic", the whole concept of Jedi is rather based on Buddhism, combined with some other stuff plus telecinetic abilities.
Also what bothers me most was the idea of "places that are dead in the Force" (or whatever)... this just isn't how the Force was created in the original Star Wars trilogy. "The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us, penetrates us, and binds the galaxy together." - sorry, I just don't see the whole "dead in the Force/wound in the Force" in there. It just doesn't fit. And yes, I also hate most of the new Star Wars films and I think Lucas should be shot for ever thinking of something like the "midi-chlorians"...

Lols its called the Darkside. Think about it. And midi-chlorians make since because the force is't magical it's just something that exists in the star wars galaxy, makes alot more since then magic tricks from the darkages.

[TheTrooper1138]

Nibroc17 wrote...

TheTrooper1138 wrote...

Schneidend wrote...

I haven't commented on the "Wound in the Force" plot point, myself, so I think I'll rectify that now. What exactly is so unbelievable about this? The Force is a magic energy, and is therefore susceptible to the same kind of esoteric damage that an "Arcane Weave" or "Spellflow" or "Mana," or whatever a setting calls its source of power, might be. I'm glad Obsidian made a story that was about what is easily the coolest aspect of the Star Wars universe, the Force and Force philosophy.

But THAT is not Star Wars. The Force is not based on "magic", the whole concept of Jedi is rather based on Buddhism, combined with some other stuff plus telecinetic abilities.
Also what bothers me most was the idea of "places that are dead in the Force" (or whatever)... this just isn't how the Force was created in the original Star Wars trilogy. "The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us, penetrates us, and binds the galaxy together." - sorry, I just don't see the whole "dead in the Force/wound in the Force" in there. It just doesn't fit. And yes, I also hate most of the new Star Wars films and I think Lucas should be shot for ever thinking of something like the "midi-chlorians"...

Lols its called the Darkside. Think about it. And midi-chlorians make since because the force is't magical it's just something that exists in the star wars galaxy, makes alot more since then magic tricks from the darkages.

no, midichlorians don't make sense with the concept of the original theory... and it just takes the "magical" feel of the Force away... it was just a terrible idea, but then again, most of the new trilogy is crap... 

Modifié par TheTrooper1138, 04 mars 2010 - 12:46 .

[Hyper Cutter]

KOTOR2 never did sit right with me... just didn't "feel" like Star Wars, you know?

[Collider]

Not really similar. I enjoyed both, but I don't really see any specific parallels.

[Archilochos]

Hyper Cutter wrote...

KOTOR2 never did sit right with me... just didn't "feel" like Star Wars, you know?

I know what you mean, although I liked that it didn't feel like Star Wars.  I found KOTOR 2 to be refreshing and necessary.  For those willing to follow the tone and story closely, it showed that by exploring the holes and shortcuts in the Star Wars universe, by rebelling against the 'heroic' scope of its design, you can actually squeeze some very cool stuff out.

KOTOR 2 takes shots at Star Wars all over the place.  Kreia's job is basically to point out the gaps, failures and short-sightedness in the jedi council, and by extension the design of Star Wars as a setting.  By allowing the player to participate in this critique, the game provides an opportunity to improve the setting, lore and tone by letting us tear down flaws and put our own spin on them.  The incomplete, inconsistent design of the fictional jedi cosmos facilitates this.

It was damn good fun, and the characters were interesting too.  I found Visas downright captivating.  Outstanding voice acting.  Kreia's up there with Ravel from Torment as one of the most interesting, best written villains out there.

Yeah, the game was unfinished - rushed December release, $ business, etc... sucks, but what made it through is still pretty damn good.

Also - KOTOR 2's influence system - pretty much the foundation of DAO influence, not to mention ME2 loyalty.  Obsidian and Bioware borrow design ideas from each other (and the now departed Troika) all the time, and thank god for that - they're far and away the best RPG developers out there.

Here's hoping Alpha Protocol keeps me busy until DAO 2 and/or ME3.  Between them, Bio and Obsid may keep me gaming for a very long time.

[FutureBoy81]

Kotor 2 wasnt an Epic fail, but a fail none the less, i liken ME2 to a drunken one night stand once you wake up you realize what a big mistake it was ...

[BellaStrega]

Archilochos wrote...

KOTOR 2 takes shots at Star Wars all over the place.  Kreia's job is basically to point out the gaps, failures and short-sightedness in the jedi council, and by extension the design of Star Wars as a setting.  By allowing the player to participate in this critique, the game provides an opportunity to improve the setting, lore and tone by letting us tear down flaws and put our own spin on them.  The incomplete, inconsistent design of the fictional jedi cosmos facilitates this.

This is pretty close to the truth:

Chris Avellone: ...as much as the nature of the Force frustrated me in some respects, Kreia
was the personification of that frustration – the fact that some
arbitrary force would feel the need to “correct’ the human species at
times with mass slaughter in Episodes 1 through 3, and the hypocrisy of
the Jedi that took place in IV and V. I’ve never really forgiven Ben
Kenobi for his lies in Episodes IV and V, and Kreia definitely echoes
that.

Read the full interview. Has some interesting insights about KOTOR 2.

[Balerion84]

BellaStrega wrote...


Read the full interview. Has some interesting insights about KOTOR 2.

I would, but you didn't post the link.

[Collider]

I enjoyed KOTOR 2. Kreia was a great villain that felt unique. Enjoyed killing her. Wished that KOTOR 2 was not unfinished, but alas. The restoration project for it is disappointingly slow and seems likely to be never released before I lose interest in KOTOR 2 entirely

[BellaStrega]

Balerion84 wrote...

BellaStrega wrote...


Read the full interview. Has some interesting insights about KOTOR 2.

I would, but you didn't post the link.

WTF, I linked it in the final sentence. The letters were blue in the editor, as a link should be.

Okay, trying again - sorry about the inconvenience.

Modifié par BellaStrega, 05 mars 2010 - 11:58 .

[sedrikhcain]

Schneidend wrote...

TheTrooper1138 wrote...

no, KotOR 2 sucked, ME2 doesn't...

What was so bad about KotOR 2? I liked that it was about the nature and philosophy of the Force and not another "hey the latest empire showed up let's kill them" story. Almost every expanded universe Star Wars story is about some big legion of bad guys showing up from parts unknown to mess up the Republic (although the Mandalorians are, admittedly, really awesome). That is old and tired. All KotOR 1 had going for it was that it was the first really good Star Wars game where you play a Jedi. Don't even mention the "big twist," because every soap opera ever has already done the "I had amnesia and turned out to be the bad guy" plot. Even setting that aside, the big reveal part wasn't that awesome.

So I guess you saw that big reveal coming, hunh? If you did, congratulations. You're trying real hard to crap all over something that has received almost universal praise. If you liked KOTOR 2 better, than you are certainly welcome to that opinion, but trying to suggest that the legion of fans and critics who absolutely loved the game and its BIG, HUGE, ENORMOUS, GALAXY-SIZED TWIST are just objectively wrong and stupid for doing so is not good debating. It's just silly and immature.

KOTOR was a tremendous game with a great storyline, according to myself and a lot of other people. KOTOR 2 had a lot going for it but it just didn't all come together the way it did in the first one. They added some nice gameplay wrinkles and put in some interesting characters (although the crew was hit/miss IMO. that BD-O orb and Bao-Dur both bored me to tears). But the game was clearly rushed to market and that seriously hurt the ending, both story-wise and gameplay wise. So many threads in that game just get left hanging and there is no grand sense of purpose to it. I think there was supposed to be some kind of anti-war message. A noble concept -- especially for a Star WARS game -- but it came off half-baked and, ultimately, unsatisfying IMO.

If you disagree, fine. But your pooh-poohing of one of the most loved video game moments in history is lame, churlish and isn't going to change many minds. Try talking up KOTOR 2's good points instead.

[sedrikhcain]

Grand_Commander13 wrote...

Similarities? Like how they both owned the original game in the series in the face? KOTOR 2 for storytelling and character customization, ME2 for gameplay and class differentiation. Like how a bunch of haters came out of the woodwork to attack every perceived flaw? About how a bunch of troglodytes didn't get the story so assail them both for not having one?
Yes, tons of similarities between the two, why?

It's hard to completely "get" a story that isn't finished. Talking about KOTOR 2 here, we know ME2 is second of 3, so it's story is not supposed to be done.

KOTOR 2 had more loose ends than you could count. How can anyone say the story in that game was satisfying?

[Nolenthar]

KOTOR2 wasn't even finished. If you remember the last part of the game, it was clearly written : "Oh bull****, our directors want the game to be released in one month, we have to make it quick".

It was a good game, but we can't really compare it to ME2.

[sedrikhcain]

Schneidend wrote...


As to the ending and unfinished plots, well, it was an unfinished game. Obsidian had to chop the game apart at the last second to meet their advancing deadlines.

I don't understand why so many defenders of KOTOR 2 say this like it justifies the game's MANY unfinished portions. I mean, seriously, it was like a bad TV series -- ER in its final seasons, for one -- where the writers just start up story lines, run them for a few weeks, then drop them and move on to something else, only to do the same thing.

The game was released unfinished and was never finished. The fact that they MIGHT have been on their way to putting together something truly special does not make it OK that what we actually got was an insult.


I should say that KOTOR 2 was not a miserable experience for me, just ultimately an empty one. It took me in many different directions and never seemed to have a good reason for where it wanted me to go; then it ended with a thud. A major letdown after the original.

[sedrikhcain]

TheTrooper1138 wrote...

darthcommander wrote...

who would want to get rid of Bastila? 

I have no idea... 
Only a very disturbed (gay ) person, I guess... 

Schneidend wrote...


I preferred Juhani.

but.. she looked like a cat... and not in a good 4chan way... 

Loved both characters. There was no one in 2 that I liked as much. Mara was all right but Atton was annoying. Like Mission says "Just DIE Already!" Plus, I give KOTOR major points for coming up with Carth Onasi, one of the few "generic good guy" characters in video games who is actually interesting and cool.

[BellaStrega]

sedrikhcain wrote...

I don't understand why so many defenders of KOTOR 2 say this like it justifies the game's MANY unfinished portions. I mean, seriously, it was like a bad TV series -- ER in its final seasons, for one -- where the writers just start up story lines, run them for a few weeks, then drop them and move on to something else, only to do the same thing.

KOTOR 2 had an 18 month development cycle...actually, probably closer to 15-16 months, depending on when it went gold. KOTOR had three years or more, including an extension near the two-year mark when they needed more time.

From reading the Chris Avellone interview, the problem was a combination of being told to finish before they were ready to finish, and CA's ambitious script. There's a lot of good stuff in KOTOR 2, and the game's only real flaws are that it's not able to bring all the threads it introduces to completion, and that it doesn't have a proper ending.

Here's some good criticism of pretty much everything after you fight Darth Nihil.

Anyway, the short development cycle really did cut KOTOR 2's storyline short and cost a lot of content that would have tied up loose ends and given a fully satisfying ending. That KOTOR 2 turned out this way is not a condemnation of Obsidian (or at least shouldn't be), but an example of the way LucasArts mishandled its video game projects.

Modifié par BellaStrega, 05 mars 2010 - 01:42 .

[thepimpto]

KOTOR2: searched the galaxy for jedi masters to aid or kill to prepare for the final conflict.

ME2: searched the galaxy for a team for a suicide mission to prepare for the final conflict.



KOTOR2: rewarded for gaining the influence of party members. Jedi party.

ME2: rewarded for gaining the influence of party members. spoilers.



KOTOR2: Was pretty much a side excursion that had little to do with the plot of the first other than it took place in the same universe (canon).

ME2: Was pretty much a side excursion that had little to do with the plot of the first other than it took place in the same universe.



KOTOR2: lackluster endgame

ME2: lackluster final boss



KOTOR2: Kreia

ME2: Illusive Man