187 réponses à ce sujet

[JMan71]

Similarities between the two? Not really. Maybe in the way that Kotor 2 improved upon the depth of crew member interaction and so did ME2. But that's about it. Besides that everything else was different.



I thought Kotor 2 was pretty good but no where near the awesomeness that was Knights of the Old Republic. The story just wasn't there. I didn't feel any sort of importance to the whole thing. I aslo didn't like that they made the force something that could be destroyed. I mean of course I don't wand the force destroyed, its the coolest aspect of Star Wars, but I couldn't really feel like the galaxy was at stake or put a personal face to the whole thing when something so intangible was what was in danger.



However I did think Obsidian did a lot of interesting things gameplay wise. Lightsaber styles, ultimate light side/dark side power, training people in the force, and the influence system was a really cool idea. I thought they kind of cheapened though, when they attiributed the influence to you being a wound in the force. It was basically saying "Oh all of the friends you made that are following you, well they don't actually really like you or want to follow you, they're just drawn to you because of a magic field you emit". I was like "well...that sucks". I also didn't like the fact that even though you were supposedly influencing them all that really changed was the ls/ds meter. You could have influenced someone who was originally pretty darksided all the way to the light side and they still acted like a darksider.



With Mass Effect 2 though I liked almost everything they did with it. Is there still some improvements Id like to see? Absolutely, but when compared with KOTOR 2 its like night and day. And again Obsidian made KOTOR 2 and Bioware made KOTOR so its really not a good comparison to draw.



And finally, to all the folks that are trashing ME1, 2, or KOTOR and saying KOTOR 2 is better than them all. Hi trolls, how you doin tonight? And to the rest of you, please don't feed them, it only makes them hungry for more.

[sedrikhcain]

BellaStrega wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...

I don't understand why so many defenders of KOTOR 2 say this like it justifies the game's MANY unfinished portions. I mean, seriously, it was like a bad TV series -- ER in its final seasons, for one -- where the writers just start up story lines, run them for a few weeks, then drop them and move on to something else, only to do the same thing.

KOTOR 2 had an 18 month development cycle...actually, probably closer to 15-16 months, depending on when it went gold. KOTOR had three years or more, including an extension near the two-year mark when they needed more time.

From reading the Chris Avellone interview, the problem was a combination of being told to finish before they were ready to finish, and CA's ambitious script. There's a lot of good stuff in KOTOR 2, and the game's only real flaws are that it's not able to bring all the threads it introduces to completion, and that it doesn't have a proper ending.

Here's some good criticism of pretty much everything after you fight Darth Nihil.

Anyway, the short development cycle really did cut KOTOR 2's storyline short and cost a lot of content that would have tied up loose ends and given a fully satisfying ending. That KOTOR 2 turned out this way is not a condemnation of Obsidian (or at least shouldn't be), but an example of the way LucasArts mishandled its video game projects.

I made no condemnation of Obsidian, and didn't intend to condemn them. What I said was that I can't understand why people keep on bringing this short timetable up as if it makes the game better somehow to say that. And here you are doing it again. I don't really care what the reasons for the game's shortcomings were, the shortcomings are still there and not going away any time soon apparently. KOTOR and its sequel are both extremely plot and character driven. The story and the development of the characters are the central elements of both games. As such, a half-baked ending and TONS of loose ends are unforgivable failings -- and KOTOR 2 suffers from both of them.

[sedrikhcain]

BellaStrega wrote...

Archilochos wrote...

KOTOR 2 takes shots at Star Wars all over the place.  Kreia's job is basically to point out the gaps, failures and short-sightedness in the jedi council, and by extension the design of Star Wars as a setting.  By allowing the player to participate in this critique, the game provides an opportunity to improve the setting, lore and tone by letting us tear down flaws and put our own spin on them.  The incomplete, inconsistent design of the fictional jedi cosmos facilitates this.

This is pretty close to the truth:

Chris Avellone: ...as much as the nature of the Force frustrated me in some respects, Kreia
was the personification of that frustration – the fact that some
arbitrary force would feel the need to “correct’ the human species at
times with mass slaughter in Episodes 1 through 3, and the hypocrisy of
the Jedi that took place in IV and V. I’ve never really forgiven Ben
Kenobi for his lies in Episodes IV and V, and Kreia definitely echoes
that.

Read the full interview. Has some interesting insights about KOTOR 2.

Hmmm, dude writes a story set in the Star Wars universe and following up on a game that follows closely in the tradition of the franchise but he has obvious contempt for several key elements of the trilogy. That explains why it never really felt like a Star Wars story. It was pulling against the Star Wars ethos while operating within a Star Wars world. That explains a lot. Still, who knows what he would've come up with given more time.

[JMan71]

BellaStrega wrote...

Archilochos wrote...

KOTOR 2 takes shots at Star Wars all over the place.  Kreia's job is basically to point out the gaps, failures and short-sightedness in the jedi council, and by extension the design of Star Wars as a setting.  By allowing the player to participate in this critique, the game provides an opportunity to improve the setting, lore and tone by letting us tear down flaws and put our own spin on them.  The incomplete, inconsistent design of the fictional jedi cosmos facilitates this.

This is pretty close to the truth:

Chris Avellone: ...as much as the nature of the Force frustrated me in some respects, Kreia
was the personification of that frustration – the fact that some
arbitrary force would feel the need to “correct’ the human species at
times with mass slaughter in Episodes 1 through 3, and the hypocrisy of
the Jedi that took place in IV and V. I’ve never really forgiven Ben
Kenobi for his lies in Episodes IV and V, and Kreia definitely echoes
that.

Read the full interview. Has some interesting insights about KOTOR 2.

Huh. Makes me like Kotor 2 even less now. I love Star Wars and its mythology. If he didn't like it so much than he should'nt have made a game about it, instead of trying to change it to suit his own desires.

[Gorn Kregore]

ImperialOperative wrote...

TheTrooper1138 wrote...

1) since I mainly play as femshep (can't stand Meer's voice and Hale's is so awesome <3), I don't really care, but I had no problem with it in DAO, tho I did not explore that option... 

2) they were... fact... still liked ME 2

3) since I mainly play as femshep (as stated in 1) ), of course I romance Liara when I do (maleshep gets Ashely of course ). So no.

4) Kelly is cute, hot and I'm totally in love with her... 

Most. Annoying. Poster. Ever.

Almost as annoying as renegade Hale. Almost.

<3:crying:

Fact.

[Skarwael]

Gorn Kregore wrote...

ImperialOperative wrote...

TheTrooper1138 wrote...

1) since I mainly play as femshep (can't stand Meer's voice and Hale's is so awesome <3), I don't really care, but I had no problem with it in DAO, tho I did not explore that option... 

2) they were... fact... still liked ME 2

3) since I mainly play as femshep (as stated in 1) ), of course I romance Liara when I do (maleshep gets Ashely of course ). So no.

4) Kelly is cute, hot and I'm totally in love with her... 

Most. Annoying. Poster. Ever.

Almost as annoying as renegade Hale. Almost.

<3:crying:

Fact.

+1

Get off the internet.

[BellaStrega]

sedrikhcain wrote...

Hmmm, dude writes a story set in the Star Wars universe and following up on a game that follows closely in the tradition of the franchise but he has obvious contempt for several key elements of the trilogy. That explains why it never really felt like a Star Wars story. It was pulling against the Star Wars ethos while operating within a Star Wars world. That explains a lot. Still, who knows what he would've come up with given more time.

You're reading stuff into it that isn't there, but whatever. You read too much into my other post, too.

As for the other response - the short dev cycle had a direct impact on KOTOR 2's quality. It's not irrelevant and it cannot be irrelevant. Asking people to leave that information out because it doesn't suit you is unreasonable.

Modifié par BellaStrega, 05 mars 2010 - 10:57 .

[BellaStrega]

JMan71 wrote...

Huh. Makes me like Kotor 2 even less now. I love Star Wars and its mythology. If he didn't like it so much than he should'nt have made a game about it, instead of trying to change it to suit his own desires.

He doesn't hate Star Wars, he disliked some elements of Star Wars and Kreia was his response to those elements. It's possible to love a work of fiction and still hate parts of it.

[TheTrooper1138]

JMan71 wrote...

BellaStrega wrote...

Archilochos wrote...

KOTOR 2 takes shots at Star Wars all over the place.  Kreia's job is basically to point out the gaps, failures and short-sightedness in the jedi council, and by extension the design of Star Wars as a setting.  By allowing the player to participate in this critique, the game provides an opportunity to improve the setting, lore and tone by letting us tear down flaws and put our own spin on them.  The incomplete, inconsistent design of the fictional jedi cosmos facilitates this.

This is pretty close to the truth:

Chris Avellone: ...as much as the nature of the Force frustrated me in some respects, Kreia
was the personification of that frustration – the fact that some
arbitrary force would feel the need to “correct’ the human species at
times with mass slaughter in Episodes 1 through 3, and the hypocrisy of
the Jedi that took place in IV and V. I’ve never really forgiven Ben
Kenobi for his lies in Episodes IV and V, and Kreia definitely echoes
that.

Read the full interview. Has some interesting insights about KOTOR 2.

Huh. Makes me like Kotor 2 even less now. I love Star Wars and its mythology. If he didn't like it so much than he should'nt have made a game about it, instead of trying to change it to suit his own desires.

This. 


So, do I get my own hate-group now, or what? :innocent:

[AxecObl]

KOTOR 2 would have been so much better if it was made by bioware instead of obsidian, plus bioware probably would have actually finished the game

[GHOST OF FRUITY]

Kotor 2 was hard to judge because it simply wasn't finished - what there was, it was a very good game. But it had parts missing so it will always be a 'what if' kind of deal for me I'd still say the first Kotor was better than the second.



But I see no similarity between Kotor 2 and ME2 except the number 2 being in the respective titles. ME1 and 2 are the two best games i've played for many years. Both are different in their gameplay mechanics, and yet both are great at what they do.

[sedrikhcain]

BellaStrega wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...

Hmmm, dude writes a story set in the Star Wars universe and following up on a game that follows closely in the tradition of the franchise but he has obvious contempt for several key elements of the trilogy. That explains why it never really felt like a Star Wars story. It was pulling against the Star Wars ethos while operating within a Star Wars world. That explains a lot. Still, who knows what he would've come up with given more time.

You're reading stuff into it that isn't there, but whatever. You read too much into my other post, too.

As for the other response - the short dev cycle had a direct impact on KOTOR 2's quality. It's not irrelevant and it cannot be irrelevant. Asking people to leave that information out because it doesn't suit you is unreasonable.

Yes, Bella, the short dev cycle had a direct impact on the game's quality. So what? That would be relevant if I were making a critique of Obsidian. I'm not doing that, I'm critiquing the game itself. What might have been is 100% irrelevant to the conversation of which game -- as released -- was, in fact, better. There is nothing unreasonable about evaluating the games based on what they are. What's unreasonable is asking me to evaluate my ACTUAL playing experience based on what a game MIGHT have been.  

I'm saying the game -- as it was released -- was deeply flawed. How am I supposed to evaluate the game any other way? This is about comparing two games. What would you have me do, compare the actual product that was KOTOR to what KOTOR 2 MAY have been? Oh let's see, how exactly would that work? "Hmmm, KOTOR was a better experience than KOTOR 2 imo BUT KOTOR 2 was unfinished and clearly WOULD'VE been better if they'd only been allowed to finish it (which is an absurd assumption, who knows how it would've turned out. no one does). So I'll say KOTOR 2 was atually a better game?"

And as for your first response, the man says in his own words that he had a lot of contempt for things in Star Wars and he wrote KOTOR 2 as an outgrowth of said contempt. What exactly am I reading in? He has said it.

[Archilochos]

BellaStrega wrote...

Archilochos wrote...

KOTOR 2 takes shots at Star Wars all over the place.  Kreia's job is basically to point out the gaps, failures and short-sightedness in the jedi council, and by extension the design of Star Wars as a setting.  By allowing the player to participate in this critique, the game provides an opportunity to improve the setting, lore and tone by letting us tear down flaws and put our own spin on them.  The incomplete, inconsistent design of the fictional jedi cosmos facilitates this.

This is pretty close to the truth:

Chris Avellone: ...as much as the nature of the Force frustrated me in some respects, Kreia
was the personification of that frustration – the fact that some
arbitrary force would feel the need to “correct’ the human species at
times with mass slaughter in Episodes 1 through 3, and the hypocrisy of
the Jedi that took place in IV and V. I’ve never really forgiven Ben
Kenobi for his lies in Episodes IV and V, and Kreia definitely echoes
that.

Read the full interview. Has some interesting insights about KOTOR 2.

Good find on that interiew.  Thanks for the link.  It's interesting how much of CA's intent comes through in the gameplay.  It just goes to show how much originality can fit into an established setting.  KOTOR was good, classic star wars stuff, but KOTOR2 introduced some stuff that was missing from the setting's tone.  The two games really complement each other.  It's a shame we won't see a third.