235 réponses à ce sujet

[Tankfriend]

TornadoADV wrote...1. Yes they do, 36 Kilotons is nothing to sneeze at, considering you can't intercept it.
2. Every ship has to do this.
3.
A Dreadnought could be fitted with secondary Helios Thrusters pioneered
by the SR-2, also, the Dreadnought doesn't need to evade fire from
anything smaller then another Dreadnought, it will simply shrug the
fire aside.
4. Reapers lack long range punch and seem to depend on
their shields and armor to allow them to either ram or using it's
articulated DEW/Particle Cannon weaponry.
5. That's when the
GARDIANS and Javelin Mk.IIs come in. The GARDIAN array could be fitted
with Salarian technology that would sextuple the range over standard
Alliance arrays. (Ultra-Violet to Infra-Red) and the Javelin Mk.IIs
could replace their Disruptor warheads with Nuclear payloads. (Reapers
seem to lack a defense system similar to GARDIAN, allowing a B41
nuclear warhead (25 Megatons, equal to 694,444.4 Dreadnought main gun
rounds.) to easily slip through a shield array fried by GARDIAN and
basically wipe out a Reaper in one shot.)
6. They do not.
7. They are.
8.
Alliance Dreadnoughts need less due to heavy use of VI and automation,
somewhere around 4000 crew compared to the Destiny's 10,000.

1. First, we don't know whether or not you can intercept it (we don't know about the full potential of Reapers yet anyway) and second the Reapers might be able to avoid the fire all together at long range due to their maneuverability. Both instances would effectively render a conventional dreadnought next to useless.
2. Sure, every ship has to but dreadnoughts are sitting ducks compared to any other ship class.
3. a) Helios Thrusters are used for higher fuel efficiency with an increase in maneuverability being a side-effect whos effectiveness on dreadnaughts we yet have to see.
Reapers are dreadnaught class (probably even higher than that as they have no equivalent) so "shrugging off their fire" likely is out of the question. Especially if you look to the space battle in ME1 and how fast the Destiny Ascension can actually get destroyed by non-Reaper non-dreadnought class vessels. (they're frigates or cruisers; they are too small to be dreadnoughts when compared to Sovereign)
4. Reapers don't need long-range punch - they have superior speed, armour, shields and medium-close range weaponry. Ranges at which your conventional dreadnought can no longer use his main firepower.
5. a) GARDIAN systems are designed to intercept missiles and fighter-class vessels, not dreadnought class Reapers. Also note that GARDIAN systems are not suitable for long-term engagements because they will eventually malfunction due to heat buildup. Add to that that they cannot intercept any incoming fire as Reapers apparently don't use projectile weapons.
I give you the option of mounting the Javelin torpedoes on dreadnoughts but exchanging their warheads with more powerful nuclear ones would be short of suicide - torpedoes are close-range weaponry, a range at which a 25MT explosion would inevitably cause a lot of friendly fire. But as the explosive energy would spread out in all directions, you cannot take their gross firepower as their actual firepower, so they might not even do that much damage to a Reaper.
6. I stand corrected concerning the torpedoe issue. GARDIAN systems are not designed as offensive weapons though and I was referring to "conventional" dreadnoughts, i.e. the "one extra-large gun in the middle". Ships like the Human Kilimanjaro class are a lot different in that regard as they are likely designed for close-medium range broadside engagements but still - we don't know about their respective firepower, especially as it has to be far lower than that of the conventional dreadnought gun.
8. That is still a huge crew. Compare that to an average crew of 80 on an Alliance cruiser class. Or, well, 1-2 on a fighter class that can effectively have cruiser-level firepower as well as of ME2.

Just as a small size-comparison to deal with that "dreadnoughts would easily destroy a Reaper with a few hits"-issue: Think back to the Derelict Reaper in ME2 - it was hit with a projectile that must have had many many times the firepower of a dreadnoughts main gun (probably even more than that of all current dreadnoughts combined) and it was still not sufficiently damaged to knock it out for good. It was no longer capable to fight, true, but it took huge firepower to just do that in the first place.

SaulTighsEyePatch wrote...
Approximately 40% of the hull's
width, broadside guns inflict less damage and can be mounted with
greater numbers and more flexibility. The modern human
Kilimanjaro-class dreadnoughts mount three decks with 26 broadside
accelerators apiece for a total salvo weight of 78 slugs per side,
firing once every two seconds."
Dreadnoughts have more than
enough firepower to take on anything cruiser-size or under that gets
close, and that's before you factor in the Javelin missiles and GARDIAN
lasers.

The problem is that we are dealing with technologically superior Reapers that are not cruiser but dreadnought size. Concerning the Javelins and GARDIANs, see above.

Modifié par Tankfriend, 28 février 2010 - 11:53 .

[TornadoADV]

1. Generally, ships larger then frigates are not agile enough to be able to manuever in such a way that a Dreadnought's VI cannot account for and adjust the firing solution accordingly. Even with a Reaper, they can't side step a firing line like they could with a single Dreadnought. (Side step being a loose term in being able to outpace the traverse rate of the main gun.)

2. Of course, that's just mass and interia coming into play, even though Dreadnoughts with their state of the art mass effect technology are going to be compartively sluggish when compared to a frigate or even a cruiser.

3. a.) Performance over endurance is what would be needed, even if the entire Citadel fleet had to be scrapped afterwards due to burn out, better then then complete destruction of every sapient being. b.) Reapers appear to use only DEW/Particle Beam weapons, so shields are pointless, though their lack of range is an advantage. The best choice would be to refit kinetic barriers to be replaced with Silaris heavy armor or just more ablative armor in general to better counter such weapons. (There are Heretic Geth Dreadnoughts in the Battle of the Citadel, pay close attention when Joker states that the Destiny is all clear and the Normandy will fly by a massive Geth Ship.)

4. The main-gun is a nice thing to hit your enemy with, specially when that enemy lacks range, but as you know Dreadnoughts just get more deadly the closer you get to them.

5. a.) The GARDIAN system can be used to destroy anything close enough and foolish enough to stay close, heavier vessels will take longer to burn away their armor, but fragile shield arrays and external systems will be destroyed long before then. Not to mention a Dreadnought's GARDIAN array would have much more staying power then a Frigates due the amount of space that can be assigned to cooling without affecting other systems performance. b.) A Nuclear weapon strikes with the heat and force exceeding that of a star, a 25MT device is powerful enough to completely destroy the city of New York and leave a crater exceeding that of Manhattan Island in it's wake. You don't need to worry about effect lost through blast, the fireball would be big enough to completely consume a Reaper in a direct hit.

6. Logically yes, the broadsides have to be weaker then the spine mounted gun, but they wouldn't need to be as powerful, their main task would be sapping the kinetic barriers of a passing Reaper for a nuclear tipped Javelin shot.

7(8?). Cruiser crews are about 400 or 800 if I recall, Shepard states it outright in the second interview with Jilani. A rather large number, but you have to think if a Dreadnought is worth 10 or 5 Cruisers against the Reapers. (3 of which were sliced like butter by Sov.)

8. The Reaper was effectively dead as a sapient being, the only thing left was automated systems to keep it from plunging into the brown dwarf. That's as good as a kill in combat.

Modifié par TornadoADV, 28 février 2010 - 12:41 .

[Dreadz666]

It's funny that no one of those wanting a Dreadnought realises what it actually would mean in gameplay terms.

Let me enlighten you: more elevators, a lot more elevators. [sarcasm] Just like we've always wanted[/sarcasm]
Or maybe even having to drive the Mako to get around on your kilometers long spaceship. [sarcasm] It's gonna be so much fun...[/sarcasm]

[Tankfriend]

TornadoADV wrote...

1. Generally, ships larger then frigates are not agile enough to be able to manuever in such a way that a Dreadnought's VI cannot account for and adjust the firing solution accordingly. Even with a Reaper, they can't side step a firing line like they could with a single Dreadnought. (Side step being a loose term in being able to outpace the traverse rate of the main gun.)

Erm... at least Sovereign was capable of pulling off a turn that would tear any Alliance ship apart in ME1. That has to account to something I guess. Especially if one looks at the SR-1s maneuvers in the space battle at the end of ME1 (although I generally see that as overdone on that part anyway, but oh well... )

3. a.) Performance over endurance is what would be needed, even if the entire Citadel fleet had to be scrapped afterwards due to burn out, better then then complete destruction of every sapient being.

The thing about conventional dreadnoughts is that they lose a lot of their performance once the Reapers have closed in and even improved thrusters won't be able to balance that out. Conversely, fighters and frigates will always fight at their maximum capacity in that type of combat. Add in the Thanix and they would even offer respectable firepower for their size and cost.

b.) Reapers appear to use only DEW/Particle Beam weapons, so shields are pointless, though their lack of range is an advantage. The best choice would be to refit kinetic barriers to be replaced with Silaris heavy armor or just more ablative armor in general to better counter such weapons.

Just as a little detail on the side: Reapers are using Electro-Hydrodynamic Weapons that fire a beam of tiny super-heated metal projectiles. The effect remains the same though. As much as I would like to see a widespread use of Silaris armour, it is expressly stated that applying that to anything larger than a fighter is prohibitively expensive. Not that we have seen that in actual game experience, though.
Apart from that, the battle scene at the end of ME2 also showed that even Silaris armour gets burned away by advanced weapons in a single hit.

There are Heretic Geth Dreadnoughts in the Battle of the Citadel, pay close attention when Joker states that the Destiny is all clear and the Normandy will fly by a massive Geth Ship.

I've just watched that cutscene again and can't really see any dreadnoughts there. There was a single occasion where one of the Geth ships might have been a dreadnought because its size was off by quite a bit despite being in the distance but I think that was more of a scaling mistake rather than a true dreadnought - mainly because a ship of that size did not show up anywhere else in the entire space battle scene. It's quite similar with the Normandy appearing to be almost the same size of a cruiser on occasion.

4. The main-gun is a nice thing to hit your enemy with, specially when that enemy lacks range, but as you know Dreadnoughts just get more deadly the closer you get to them.

Well, the chance to actually hit something with the main gun at closer range naturally is higher because your target has less time to react and potentially evade (even Reapers cannot do that at shorter ranges, I guess) but there still is the problem of actually aiming that weapon in close range engagements, something that conventional dreadnoughts are not made for. Thus, they lose their most valuable weapon in close range - not exactly something that makes them more dangerous. The broadside variants naturally are the exception to this because they are handled differently by design.

5. a.) The GARDIAN system can be used to destroy anything close enough and foolish enough to stay close, heavier vessels will take longer to burn away their armor, but fragile shield arrays and external systems will be destroyed long before then. Not to mention a Dreadnought's GARDIAN array would have much more staying power then a Frigates due the amount of space that can be assigned to cooling without affecting other systems performance.

Sure, the GARDIAN arrays might eventually do some damage. But how long will that take if they are not even powerful enough to outright destroy a fighter? Remember that Reapers are apparently capable of surviving a lot.

b.) A Nuclear weapon strikes with the heat and force exceeding that of a star, a 25MT device is powerful enough to completely destroy the city of New York and leave a crater exceeding that of Manhattan Island in it's wake. You don't need to worry about effect lost through blast, the fireball would be big enough to completely consume a Reaper in a direct hit.

I hate to say it but that would be a pretty tiny crater. The projectile that hit the Derelict Reaper also caused the "scar" on the planet Klendagon - that is, a massive valley that spans the entire southern hemisphere of a planet that is slightly larger than Earth. And that was just a glancing blow so 25MT worth of firepower is nowhere near what that projectile was capable of.
http://masseffect.wi.../wiki/Klendagon

6. Logically yes, the broadsides have to be weaker then the spine mounted gun, but they wouldn't need to be as powerful, their main task would be sapping the kinetic barriers of a passing Reaper for a nuclear tipped Javelin shot.

The thing is this:
a) How long will that dreadnought actually survive to fire the weapons? Broadside weapons are medium-close range, so about the range that Reapers might be capable of themselves.
 How much friendly fire would you cause through that nuclear warhead?
c) Would that warhead even do sufficient damage to a Reaper on a direct hit? (think to Klendagon)

7(8?). Cruiser crews are about 400 or 800 if I recall, Shepard states it outright in the second interview with Jilani. A rather large number, but you have to think if a Dreadnought is worth 10 or 5 Cruisers against the Reapers. (3 of which were sliced like butter by Sov.)

It is stated in ME2 (and the 2nd novel which that codex entry alludes to) that a modern Alliance cruiser of unspecified size has a crew of around 80. An old cruiser retrofitted by the Quarians of the same size category has a crew of around 700 but was later upgraded to get on with a crew of around 50.
http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Idenna

8. The Reaper was effectively dead as a sapient being, the only thing left was automated systems to keep it from plunging into the brown dwarf. That's as good as a kill in combat.

I give you that, knocking it out of combat is a good thing in and off itself, but compare how much firepower it took just to do that alone. (again, Klendagon)

Another wiki-link about ships, tactics, upgrades and so on. It for example also mentions various effective weapon ranges, typical combat tactics etc.
http://masseffect.wi...ps_and_Vehicles

Modifié par Tankfriend, 28 février 2010 - 02:36 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Dreadz666 wrote...

It's funny that no one of those wanting a Dreadnought realises what it actually would mean in gameplay terms.

Let me enlighten you: more elevators, a lot more elevators. [sarcasm] Just like we've always wanted[/sarcasm]
Or maybe even having to drive the Mako to get around on your kilometers long spaceship. [sarcasm] It's gonna be so much fun...[/sarcasm]

One has to love the ignorance. First off a Dreadnought ( for the Alliance anyway ) is no longer then 1 KM. Secondly those of us that do want a dreadnougt don't want it as the ship we will use for the majority of the game ( the Normandy would remain in that role ), but to use as a Hub for were our allied species gather, and to use in the final battle and perhaps 1-2 more space battles. That's it.

I also can't see the Normandy being able to take down a Reaper, a swarm of Frigates vs a Reaper now that plausibile, but it would be less epic then having Shepard take down a reaper with just his own ship.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 28 février 2010 - 03:10 .

[withateethuh]

Part of the reason that the Normandy is a frigate is because the small size allows for intimate relations with other characters. If you have a big dreadnought size ship, it doesn't make as much sense.



Not to mention I love the Normandy, and a dreadnought is not something that can go on stealth missions.

[Drakron]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
One has to love the ignorance.

Oh yes ... I certainly do.

First off a Dreadnought ( for the Alliance anyway ) is no longer then 1 KM.

Dreadnought size range from 800 meters to 1 kilometer long.

Secondly those of us that do want a dreadnougt don't want it as the ship we will use for the majority of the game ( the Normandy would remain in that role ), but to use as a Hub for were our allied species gather, and to use in the final battle and perhaps 1-2 more space battles. That's it.

*Looks at tread name*
*reads "SR-3 Normandy Dreadnought"

So you want a hub ... WHY? what exactly would be diferent that the Citadel, some space station or even a planet? what would be the point of having a NPCs go around saying how they are allied with Shepard or similar POINTLESS .... the hell with it.

What YOU want is having what you precived as being the biggest gun in the Galaxy, a frigate is not enough ... no, it have to be a dreadnough.

I want a battleship ... no, a freaking battle station with a death ray that can take down stars, wait GALAXIES.

I also can't see the Normandy being able to take down a Reaper, a swarm of Frigates vs a Reaper now that plausibile, but it would be less epic then having Shepard take down a reaper with just his own ship.

Epic, the most over and poorly used world in the english language in the 21th century (with sweet being a close runner up).

Funny how the game says AGAIN AND AGAIN it requires the collaboration of all the Galaxy to stand up to the Reapers but lets ignore that, its all comes down to having the biggest gun to take down hoards of the unstopable bad guys.

[Costin_Razvan]

Drakron : What I want is to unite the races of the Galaxy against the reapers, and when the final battle comes. I want Shepard to stand at the head of that allied fleet in the biggest, toughest and strongest ship in the Galaxy, rather then some bloody stealth frigate ( who's stealth systems are useless anyway ). As in my case a Dreadnought built using reversed engineered reaper tech from the Collector Base

[withateethuh]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Dreadz666 wrote...

It's funny that no one of those wanting a Dreadnought realises what it actually would mean in gameplay terms.

Let me enlighten you: more elevators, a lot more elevators. [sarcasm] Just like we've always wanted[/sarcasm]
Or maybe even having to drive the Mako to get around on your kilometers long spaceship. [sarcasm] It's gonna be so much fun...[/sarcasm]

One has to love the ignorance. First off a Dreadnought ( for the Alliance anyway ) is no longer then 1 KM. Secondly those of us that do want a dreadnougt don't want it as the ship we will use for the majority of the game ( the Normandy would remain in that role ), but to use as a Hub for were our allied species gather, and to use in the final battle and perhaps 1-2 more space battles. That's it.

I also can't see the Normandy being able to take down a Reaper, a swarm of Frigates vs a Reaper now that plausibile, but it would be less epic then having Shepard take down a reaper with just his own ship.

Did you upgrade the Normandy with the Thanix cannons in ME2? I think it could easily defend against a reaper. Seeing as how thats the reaper's own technology.

[ImperialOperative]

I agree, we need some dreadnoughts on the normandy for deployment.

[Costin_Razvan]

Did you upgrade the Normandy with the Thanix cannons in ME2? I think it could easily defend against a reaper. Seeing as how thats the reaper's own technology.

One thing is beating an already damaged collector CRUISER ( GARDIAN Towers on Horizon and the Turian Patrol ) another is to destroy a Reaper.

[addiction21]

ImperialOperative wrote...




I agree, we need some dreadnoughts on the normandy for deployment.

Then the reapers would just bring the titans in...

Modifié par addiction21, 28 février 2010 - 03:57 .

[FlintlockJazz]

A single dreadnought would get destroyed, it needs a fleet to accompany it to be effective. Shepard is fine with the stealth frigate, it's how he operates.

[ImperialOperative]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Did you upgrade the Normandy with the Thanix cannons in ME2? I think it could easily defend against a reaper. Seeing as how thats the reaper's own technology.

One thing is beating an already damaged collector CRUISER ( GARDIAN Towers on Horizon and the Turian Patrol ) another is to destroy a Reaper.

Dreadnoughts are too large and non-maneuverable to fight against reapers.

Reapers have the maneuverability of (basically) fighters, they can do moves that would rip other ships apart from doing the same move.

We can't have something the size of a dreadnought to fight against the reapers (for the Normandy).  We can make use of the galaxy dreadnoughts, but the Normandy needs to be something that can roll and dodge.

[Costin_Razvan]

Don't you think Titans are a bit big for the Normandy?

Dreadnoughts are too large and non-maneuverable to fight against reapers.

 

That's bull****. The dreadnoughts can manuever just fine, True not like the reapers do, but then again no ship, not even the Normandy can do that.

I ain't talking about an ordinary dreadnought here btw. But a custom Kilimajaro class- which you construct/upgrade over the course of the game ( the one that doesn't have a main gun, but smaller broadside ones ), with reaper shields/weapons and hull. Imagine taking a ship armed with 156 broadside Thanix like Cannons straight into the reaper fleet and unleashing hell with it.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 28 février 2010 - 04:04 .

[addiction21]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Don't you think Titans are a bit big for the Normandy?

Ya I misread his post and was thinking something completly different I guess even if there is a Normanday Dreadnought titans would not fit on it since (this is if I remember my W40k right) a Titan would be about the same size as a ME Dread.

[ImperialOperative]

addiction21 wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Don't you think Titans are a bit big for the Normandy?

Ya I misread his post and was thinking something completly different I guess even if there is a Normanday Dreadnought titans would not fit on it since (this is if I remember my W40k right) a Titan would be about the same size as a ME Dread.

Yeah they're around 200 feet (70 meters) tall.  Don't matter though, we can use mass effect fields to make them fit.

[ImperialOperative]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Don't you think Titans are a bit big for the Normandy?

Dreadnoughts are too large and non-maneuverable to fight against reapers.

 

That's bull****. The dreadnoughts can manuever just fine, True not like the reapers do, but then again no ship, not even the Normandy can do that.

I ain't talking about an ordinary dreadnought here btw. But a custom Kilimajaro class- which you construct/upgrade over the course of the game ( the one that doesn't have a main gun, but smaller broadside ones ), with reaper shields/weapons and hull. Imagine taking a ship armed with 156 broadside Thanix like Cannons straight into the reaper fleet and unleashing hell with it.

You forget that Reapers are about 5+ times the size of the largest dreadnoughts, and each have multiple thanix cannon+ weapons, and that there are basically hundreds (maybe thousands), of reapers.

[xxSgt_Reed_24xx]

Aryck1095 V2 wrote...

A Dreadnaught? Are you serious? Next you'll suggest that the Ebon Hawk should have been a warship.

The Normandy is a stealth vessel. It is supposed to be small, fast, and quiet. That's what makes it unique. Keep your glorified battering-ram, I think the Normandy is fine as it is.

Good luck fighting an armada of reapers with you tiny little stealth ship.

I'll take a dreadnought thanks.

[xxSgt_Reed_24xx]

I'm thinking if we gave the base/technology to TIM at the end of the game, he should build us a dreadnought bigger than the ones currently in service and have it built with reaper/collector technology and weapons.

[Costin_Razvan]

ImperialOperative wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Don't you think Titans are a bit big for the Normandy?

Dreadnoughts are too large and non-maneuverable to fight against reapers.

 

That's bull****. The dreadnoughts can manuever just fine, True not like the reapers do, but then again no ship, not even the Normandy can do that.

I ain't talking about an ordinary dreadnought here btw. But a custom Kilimajaro class- which you construct/upgrade over the course of the game ( the one that doesn't have a main gun, but smaller broadside ones ), with reaper shields/weapons and hull. Imagine taking a ship armed with 156 broadside Thanix like Cannons straight into the reaper fleet and unleashing hell with it.

You forget that Reapers are about 5+ times the size of the largest dreadnoughts, and each have multiple thanix cannon+ weapons, and that there are basically hundreds (maybe thousands), of reapers.

That's where your allied fleet comes in.

[ImperialOperative]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

That's where your allied fleet comes in.

thousands of reapers > 83 dreadnoughts

[xxSgt_Reed_24xx]

ImperialOperative wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

That's where your allied fleet comes in.

thousands of reapers > 83 dreadnoughts

Um, how do you know there are only 83?

Plus, they wouldn't send in JUST their dreadnoughts.... they'd send ALL available ships of every size. I'd be willing to say there'd be millions of ships vs the reapers thousands..... Then it'd be a more even battle.

[Costin_Razvan]

ImperialOperative wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

That's where your allied fleet comes in.

thousands of reapers > 83 dreadnoughts

That's is just the number of dreadnoughts in ME1, and you also forget that:

1) The Council Species have most likely bolstered their Dreadnought numbers, at least the alliance has.
2) You are not counting the Dreadnoughts in the Quarian/ Geth ( and Rachni Fleet )
3) Hundreds of Reapers ( as I seriously doubt there are THAT many reapers )  vs 120 Dreadnoughts ( just throwing a modest number here ) coupled with Dozens of Carriers, hundreds of Cruisers, thousands of Frigates, Fighters and Intereceptors.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 28 février 2010 - 04:20 .

[addiction21]

ImperialOperative wrote...


You forget that Reapers are about 5+ times the size of the largest dreadnoughts, and each have multiple thanix cannon+ weapons, and that there are basically hundreds (maybe thousands), of reapers.

Somebody will say it so here I go Sovereign was 2km in length so if he is the average representation of a Reaper they are still larger then the average Dread but are not 4km-5km length.

@The Reaper vs Dreadnought debate
We never saw it in action but the wiki states that reapers have a spinal mounted BFG weapon.
"At two kilometers long, its spinal-mounted main gun is likely capable of penetrating another dreadnought's kinetic barriers with a single shot"  
I know it is a wiki but it makes sense there would be a larger main cannon to deal with bigger threats (a.k.a. dreadnoughts space stations and voltron) and even plantary bombardments.

Modifié par addiction21, 28 février 2010 - 04:22 .