141 réponses à ce sujet

[Vaenier]

Reduce plot holes... Alot... Hell of alot...

Fix armor customization to allow toggle-able helmets.

Include an actual plot to the main story.

NO PLANET SCANNING.

Party banter.

Actual romantic scenes please?

Give squadmates actual armor, dont expose them to vacuum for no reason...

Did I mention plotholes?

[Kalfear]

Vaenier wrote...

Reduce plot holes... Alot... Hell of alot...
Fix armor customization to allow toggle-able helmets.
Include an actual plot to the main story.
NO PLANET SCANNING.
Party banter.
Actual romantic scenes please?
Give squadmates actual armor, dont expose them to vacuum for no reason...
Did I mention plotholes?

ALll good and worthy mentions Vaenier but you think you could expand on your requests and explain why and how?

Reason being, when I read that travesty of a power point presentation by Christina Norman, I really get the impression she doesnt truely understand why ME2 has had so much over welming negative responces to it. She (and by extention im assuming her team) dont understand what they did wrong and thus cant correct it (which explains the PP presentation).

So if we expand on our ideas and concerns, it leaves no wiggle room for misunderstanding.

Thats my personal take on it all and why im often long winded.

I think I know what you mean but im not willing to bet they do.

[Vaenier]

Kalfear wrote...

So if we expand on our ideas and concerns, it leaves no wiggle room for misunderstanding.

Thats my personal take on it all and why im often long winded.

I think I know what you mean but im not willing to bet they do.

Ehh, it just comes down to putting in the polish the game deserves. They got the core systems good, but didnt bother to give it a spit shine like most other games do.

Like with Blizz, they never realse anything till its ready. ME2 just felt like it had lower standards.

I dont really feel like going into it more than that.

[Sereaph502]

I agree. More character interaction is needed for sure.



One thing I would love to see though are loyalty missions that are actually woven in with the main story. In ME2 the loyalty missions feel a lot more like random side missions that come back to bite you at the end of the game than something that's part of the whole story. I'm not saying that it should become a linear "Take X person to Y planet or you never get their loyalty" thing, but maybe kind of how ME1 had the "complete majority of the game with X squadmate" achievements, where if you take squadmembers with you on 3-4 missions they become loyal to you.



That way people who want all their members loyal to them can do so while people who favor two members over everyone else can decide to just have two loyal people.



I also realize this was a big part of what made ME2 so famous, but I'd like it if gameplay elements like ship/squadmate upgrading did not affect what happens to them in the final missions...I'd much rather see it like Virmire in ME1 where you have to pick and choose. Of course that idea is also not perfect as there will be people who want all their squad with them always...Can't please them all it seems.

[SithLordExarKun]

Kalfear wrote...


Disagreeing is not a issue. Go read that travesty "open discussion thread" in non spoiler section were the same 10 pro ME2 players try to bully anyone with a differing opinion. THATS what I dont want here.
Disagreeing in a mature way is fine and promotes discussion and debate.

Hilarious that its coming from some one like you considering you bashed and challenged anybody that disagreed with you in other threads.

The thing is kalfear i wouldn't have attacked you if you didn't attack me first. I got very annoyed when you constantly accused me of being a hardcore ME2 or a shooter fan despite the fact i voiced out my dislikes of ME2 and that really got to me.

I obviously want more character interaction in the third game seeing that for the two previous games, the vast majority of character interaction where you get to know them is on the normandy, i just think being able to talk to them elsewhere adds more to the immersion.

Modifié par SithLordExarKun, 09 juin 2010 - 02:17 .

[Lellandra]

Kalfear wrote...
10) Email

While we speaking on Side missions, I like the email system, to a degree but I miss Admiral Hackets intercome missions and reports after its done.
I guess I also miss checking in after a major plot happening (besides you, new person, and someone else in board room). I liked having all the crew there for debeifing and hearing their thoughts on mission before I debreif my superiors, be it Alliance, Council, or Cerberus.

I also read a suggestion elsewhere where to person wished they could respond to the emailer. Now im not sure how you would go about that but surely you should be able to bring up emails to specific parties.
For example you get a email about Garrus and one of his old units wives is worried about him. I was disappointed I couldnt talk to Garrus about this and help him through his issues at the time.
Got me wondering, why bother sending the email to begin with if you cant act on it?
Again, the little things being over looked and passed by

Welp thats my opening letter. Hopethis can truely be a productive thread filled with ideas (cause I gotta admit im sick of the trolls trying to start arguements and waylay the threads).

If you think you have something that could be better in ME2 or 3 and want to share, post away one and all

ME2 wasnt perfect, but with solid and productive (and mature) feedback, ME3 could be. The combat system is in place from all appearences, now its time to focus on the game and making it best it could be.

I noticed how much I missed Admiral Hackett until last week when I replayed ME1 from the start. I loved those missions! Great stories, they had a lot to d with your background.

But of course, since you are with Cerberus, the Alliance would never contact you with missions. I just wished they had more side missions like those.

I wished they had used less of the budget on famous actors for secondary characters and more on side quests or on the Citadel. Did we really need famous actors voicing the quarians on Tali's mission? I love Carrie Ann Moss but I thought her character was too secondary for such a big name. It would have been better spent on missions or characters on the Normandy.

The email system felt very cheap also. I would have loved to seen those messages in vid mail in your cabin.

[SithLordExarKun]

Lellandra wrote...



The email system felt very cheap also. I would have loved to seen those messages in vid mail in your cabin.

It certainly was, while helena and fist transfer over provided they didn't die, it was a very small role. I honestly like the idea of vid mail because at the very least we get to see some form of facial expression rather than a wall of text which i really couldn't be bothered about.

Transferring choices  from one game to another can't possibly be easy, if they are going to manifest it in a form of text, the least they could do would be to put it in video, or make it like fist and blake but with a slightly larger role.

As for the bigger choices like saving the council or keeping the base, i hope it plays a huge rold in the third game.

[Kalfear]

SithLordExarKun wrote...

Kalfear wrote...


Disagreeing is not a issue. Go read that travesty "open discussion thread" in non spoiler section were the same 10 pro ME2 players try to bully anyone with a differing opinion. THATS what I dont want here.
Disagreeing in a mature way is fine and promotes discussion and debate.

Hilarious that its coming from some one like you considering you bashed and challenged anybody that disagreed with you in other threads.

The thing is kalfear i wouldn't have attacked you if you didn't attack me first. I got very annoyed when you constantly accused me of being a hardcore ME2 or a shooter fan despite the fact i voiced out my dislikes of ME2 and that really got to me.

I obviously want more character interaction in the third game seeing that for the two previous games, the vast majority of character interaction where you get to know them is on the normandy, i just think being able to talk to them elsewhere adds more to the immersion.

reported
please take your trolling elsewhere

thats all im saying
So others understand, Sith is one of the trolls that ruined the other thread by attacking anyone with something negative to say and I dont want that garbage here!

If she can leave the attack BS (Bolded) elesewhere and post on topic, no issue

But im not getting into a freaking flame war here! This thread is one of the few open threads where people been able to voice concerns with out all the drama

Modifié par Kalfear, 09 juin 2010 - 03:33 .

[Whatever Works]

hmm

[SithLordExarKun]

Kalfear wrote...

SithLordExarKun wrote...

Kalfear wrote...


Disagreeing is not a issue. Go read that travesty "open discussion thread" in non spoiler section were the same 10 pro ME2 players try to bully anyone with a differing opinion. THATS what I dont want here.
Disagreeing in a mature way is fine and promotes discussion and debate.

Hilarious that its coming from some one like you considering you bashed and challenged anybody that disagreed with you in other threads.

The thing is kalfear i wouldn't have attacked you if you didn't attack me first. I got very annoyed when you constantly accused me of being a hardcore ME2 or a shooter fan despite the fact i voiced out my dislikes of ME2 and that really got to me.

I obviously want more character interaction in the third game seeing that for the two previous games, the vast majority of character interaction where you get to know them is on the normandy, i just think being able to talk to them elsewhere adds more to the immersion.

reported
please take your trolling elsewhere

thats all im saying

Wow, so giving a PRODUCTIVE suggestion counts as trolling?

[Kalfear]

Lellandra wrote...

Kalfear wrote...
10) Email

While we speaking on Side missions, I like the email system, to a degree but I miss Admiral Hackets intercome missions and reports after its done.
I guess I also miss checking in after a major plot happening (besides you, new person, and someone else in board room). I liked having all the crew there for debeifing and hearing their thoughts on mission before I debreif my superiors, be it Alliance, Council, or Cerberus.

I also read a suggestion elsewhere where to person wished they could respond to the emailer. Now im not sure how you would go about that but surely you should be able to bring up emails to specific parties.
For example you get a email about Garrus and one of his old units wives is worried about him. I was disappointed I couldnt talk to Garrus about this and help him through his issues at the time.
Got me wondering, why bother sending the email to begin with if you cant act on it?
Again, the little things being over looked and passed by

Welp thats my opening letter. Hopethis can truely be a productive thread filled with ideas (cause I gotta admit im sick of the trolls trying to start arguements and waylay the threads).

If you think you have something that could be better in ME2 or 3 and want to share, post away one and all

ME2 wasnt perfect, but with solid and productive (and mature) feedback, ME3 could be. The combat system is in place from all appearences, now its time to focus on the game and making it best it could be.

I noticed how much I missed Admiral Hackett until last week when I replayed ME1 from the start. I loved those missions! Great stories, they had a lot to d with your background.

But of course, since you are with Cerberus, the Alliance would never contact you with missions. I just wished they had more side missions like those.

I wished they had used less of the budget on famous actors for secondary characters and more on side quests or on the Citadel. Did we really need famous actors voicing the quarians on Tali's mission? I love Carrie Ann Moss but I thought her character was too secondary for such a big name. It would have been better spent on missions or characters on the Normandy.

The email system felt very cheap also. I would have loved to seen those messages in vid mail in your cabin.

I dont know Lell, Cereberus missions could still have had something to do with collecters, advancing the main story. So they would have been compareable to the hacket /alliance missions of ME1.

The side missions in ME2 are to short though.
Now this could be misdirection that we spent so much time in the Mako tracking down buildings and pods and minerals that ME1 side missions felt longer but they just did.
ME2 looked awsome but we so freaking short, some were literally 2 rooms and over.
Bioware needs to put more thought into making the missions relatable to the main story like in ME1 AND make them longer in size and lenght!
Im not saying more combat either (though thats the easy way out), im saying more interesting, maybe more interactions with the bad guy, more information to read when you finish mission, stuff that makes a 5 minute mission 20 minutes.

Agree about email. Would love to have been able to bring those topics up with person being emails about (IE Garrus or Miranda or Thane). Would have created extra layers of personality and helped form the bond greater.

[Kalfear]

Saw this thread buried but the opening post is very well written so rather then copy paste the whole post, here is link.

Excellent post

http://social.biowar...5/index/1852848

Modifié par Kalfear, 09 juin 2010 - 03:37 .

[Nightwriter]

When we complained about the elevators I feel like they thought we were complaining about banter as well when all we were really complaining about was the wait.

Party interaction is ALWAYS good. Though I want more DA:O style interaction in that much of the banter in ME1 was just recycled questions and recycled answers exchanged by different squaddies. The conversations weren't unique.

I also felt like each character was an island. I got them to trust me, but I didn't feel like I got them to trust each other. Not a lot of team interconnection.

[Kalfear]

Nightwriter wrote...

When we complained about the elevators I feel like they thought we were complaining about banter as well when all we were really complaining about was the wait.

Party interaction is ALWAYS good. Though I want more DA:O style interaction in that much of the banter in ME1 was just recycled questions and recycled answers exchanged by different squaddies. The conversations weren't unique.

I also felt like each character was an island. I got them to trust me, but I didn't feel like I got them to trust each other. Not a lot of team interconnection.

Interesting, I wrote following in a different thread about the difference between learning about the ME1 characters and what you learned about the ME2 characters (elevators played a big part in knowing your ME1 characters even though I dont say it specifically)

I should point out person I was talking with (not Jebel) disagrees fully about the effect banter had and he didnt miss it as t all in ME2.

Kalfear wrote...

But they were, Maybe its the purely linear and unbending way you learn about them in ME2 that bothers me.
I mean I could spit on Miranda and shoot her sister and shes going to tell me the same story at the same time every time unlike characters in DA:O where you have to influence them and by not impressing them you stop the sharing or at least the character shares less.

ME2, do what ever you want, Party member going to tell their little bit of story (Thane being the one exception, Thane ALMOST found the right amount and degree of story). But thats just it, their little bit. It really doesnt tell you anything but that little specific story, you still dont know their passions or what makes them tick. What you learn is shallow and only enough to set up the Loyalty quests in most cases.

I want to know about my squadmates so I can make a connection with them.

Ashley was a army brat, has a sister, is god fearing. None of this really matters but it builds up the character so you form a connection.
Liara, you learn so much about Liara in ME1, or Wrex, or Garrus, and even Tali. 
Hell they basically didnt wroite anything for Garrus or Tali in ME2 as ME1 told you so much (big mistake)

DA:O- you learn so freaking much about your group members. Some transfers to side quests, much doesnt. Its background information to form a connection and bond with those characters, and you do.

When someone tells me they formed a bond in ME2 I just roll my eyes and dismiss them to be honest (like those that say they RPG fans but dont care about RPG elements being stripped in ME2). Only people that formed a bond or connection with the NPCs of ME2 are those that went in LOOKING TO rather then letting the game develope the needed storyline and atmoshphere required. Me personally (and many many many many many many others that have posted about this) want the game to do the work. If I just go in expecting the connection regardless, I may as well post about pokemon being a RPG.

sorry Jebel, but ME2 most definately did lack in personal connections and emotional connections to the squadmates. Those connections require backstories and personalities that get played on during the game. ME2 was just a poorly wrote novel that lacked emotion. I know you know what I mean as you seem literate enough to have experience a wide variety of writings. Some are excellent, some, not so much. ME2 was the not so much.

PS: I think your 100% correct that the ME2 crowd thought the banter in the elevators were a issue!

To be hinest, I thought same thing when I read on old boards the complaints about the elevators.
I always loved the elevator rides and intentionally rode them to make sure I heard all the conversations each game

Modifié par Kalfear, 09 juin 2010 - 04:03 .

[Nightwriter]

Exactly! I rode the elevators every single time JUST to hear the banter, that's how important it was.

I remember groaning with disappointment every time I got on and the news played instead, some announcement I'd heard a thousand times before.

I was like "I know a salarian excavation team has run into a recent problem at a Prothean dig site, shut up so I can hear my damn squaddies talk!!"

As for what characters tell you, well, there's only so much Bioware can do to make you feel you're discovering their backstories naturally. In ME2 the entire game revolved around the characters, and you HAD to do their loyalty missions if you didn't want to miss out on 50% of the game's content. You have to learn about their backstories sometime.

And you know, I imagine Bioware's about tired by now of us mentioning Dragon Age every damn time we talk about character handling. Well, it's your own fault, Bioware! You shouldn't have set the bar so high!

[SSV Enterprise]

At Kalfear's request, I am continuing a discussion from another thread.  But first, let me make my overall opinion clear.  ME1 and ME2 were both very good games, mostly because of the story and characters.  ME1's story structure was superior over ME1's, while ME2's characters were superior over ME1's.  It seems to have been a tradeoff- there was no change in overall quality, just a shift in focus.  ME2's combat was of course smoother and better executed than ME1's, and I liked the streamlining of the RPG elements instead of the groan-inducing inventory of ME1.  There are various other details, some of which ME1 was better at, some of which ME2 was better at, but overall, I think ME2 was the better game.

Now that that's out of the way, here is my response to Kalfear:

Kalfear wrote...

But they were, Maybe its the purely linear and unbending way you learn about them in ME2 that bothers me.
I mean I could spit on Miranda and shoot her sister and shes going to tell me the same story at the same time every time unlike characters in DA:O where you have to influence them and by not impressing them you stop the sharing or at least the character shares less.

ME2, do what ever you want, Party member going to tell their little bit of story (Thane being the one exception, Thane ALMOST found the right amount and degree of story). But thats just it, their little bit. It really doesnt tell you anything but that little specific story, you still dont know their passions or what makes them tick. What you learn is shallow and only enough to set up the Loyalty quests in most cases.

I want to know about my squadmates so I can make a connection with them.

Ashley was a army brat, has a sister, is god fearing. None of this really matters but it builds up the character so you form a connection.
Liara, you learn so much about Liara in ME1, or Wrex, or Garrus, and even Tali. 
Hell they basically didnt wroite anything for Garrus or Tali in ME2 as ME1 told you so much (big mistake)

DA:O- you learn so freaking much about your group members. Some transfers to side quests, much doesnt. Its background information to form a connection and bond with those characters, and you do.

When someone tells me they formed a bond in ME2 I just roll my eyes and dismiss them to be honest (like those that say they RPG fans but dont care about RPG elements being stripped in ME2). Only people that formed a bond or connection with the NPCs of ME2 are those that went in LOOKING TO rather then letting the game develope the needed storyline and atmoshphere required. Me personally (and many many many many many many others that have posted about this) want the game to do the work. If I just go in expecting the connection regardless, I may as well post about pokemon being a RPG.

sorry Jebel, but ME2 most definately did lack in personal connections and emotional connections to the squadmates. Those connections require backstories and personalities that get played on during the game. ME2 was just a poorly wrote novel that lacked emotion. I know you know what I mean as you seem literate enough to have experience a wide variety of writings. Some are excellent, some, not so much. ME2 was the not so much.

You are entitled to your opinion, Kalfear.  But I respectfully disagree.  ME2 characters had just as much backstory as the characters in Mass Effect 1- Thane had his wife and son, Miranda had her father andsister, Mordin had his service with the STG, etc.  But more than that, each of their backstories figured into their loyalty missions.  In ME1, Ashley, Kaidan, and Tali's backstory never came up while on missions.  Liara's did, but in a very limited way- the mission on Noveria is hardly changed whether Liara comes with you or not.  Garrus and Wrex get side missions with very simple resolutions- for Garrus, you find a guy, talk abit, then kill him.  For Wrex, you go shoot some guys, retrieve his armor, and that's it.  ME2's loyalty missions were all far more complex, with the past of characters coming to haunt them, characters confronting their pasts, or new problems arising from their backgrounds.  It added to their character development, making them seem more like real people and less like audio recordings.

However, this system hasn't seen its full potential.  One way this could be improved is by having characters' backstories tie in with the main quest, similar to but more complex than Liara's connection with Benezia.  This would be very difficult with ~12 squad members, so to properly implement it may mean trimming down on the amount of squad members or only doing it with some.  Some is better than none, though.

Also, on the topic of elevators and party banter:  With regards to elevators, I do agree that this was overall a step down from ME1.  The banter in elevators was a wonderful idea- instead of having us watch useless loading screens, sometimes show characters talking, and contribute a little bit to character development!  However, some dimwitted fans/detractors of the first game mistook the elevator rides as just there for the heck of it, not for loading, and criticized them.  BioWare unwisely listened to them, and instead replaced elevator rides in ME2 with dull loading screens, which ME2 still got criticized for being too long.  ME3 should go back to this system.

However, though conversations and banter were no longer held in elevators, they were just as present in ME2.  Party members will make comments in hub worlds and on missions just like in Dragon Age, some of which need a point of interest to be selected by the player in order to trigger.

Modifié par SSV Enterprise, 09 juin 2010 - 07:06 .

[KalosCast]

As far as the elevator discussion goes, I would just like to say that for those of us who had slower machines around the time ME1 came out (Me, and presumably many other limited budget gamers), the elevators were a hellish ride where there was a ten-second news blurb or 2 lines exchanged, followed by about 5x (or more) additional time of awkward stiff-standing silence because the elevators had longer load times than the fast-travel. God help you if it took two or more elevator rides to get to your destination.



I think the idea of the "hot-spots" to chat with your characters is an ultimately better solution, though one with more interaction between the two characters would be preferred, so it's more like "elevator banter." Unfortunately, there's far too many pairings for a "line and response" type of dialog (132, 11 different people to respond to 12 different people's openers) so you'd probably have to limit it further between characters that are likely to have a meaningful back and forth.

[Jebel Krong]

KalosCast wrote...

I think the idea of the "hot-spots" to chat with your characters is an ultimately better solution, though one with more interaction between the two characters would be preferred, so it's more like "elevator banter." Unfortunately, there's far too many pairings for a "line and response" type of dialog (132, 11 different people to respond to 12 different people's openers) so you'd probably have to limit it further between characters that are likely to have a meaningful back and forth.

this. you have to balance your requests with what is doable in a reasonable time frame (related to it's relative payoff) and technically possible. a bit like people wanting customisable armour for all their squad - the memory usage to hold/stream all that info is just not doable on a 360, and is redundant anyway with the much better unique outfits (yes that's personal opinion). the fact that me2 had specific areas where you could get crewmates' opinions is indicative of this.

[Jebel Krong]

Nightwriter wrote...
*snip*

I also felt like each character was an island. I got them to trust me, but I didn't feel like I got them to trust each other. Not a lot of team interconnection.

yep i'd agree with this, whilst the characters were very well-done, and at least equal to me1 (i'll get to that in a minute, kalfear) the actual squad-integration wasn't. they tried with each specialist having their moment, but other than their loyalty to you, i don't see what would have kept some (jack, zaeed in particular) together when the going got rough.

Kalfear wrote...
Interesting, I wrote following in a different thread about the difference between learning about the ME1 characters and what you learned about the ME2 characters (elevators played a big part in knowing your ME1 characters even though I dont say it specifically)

I should point out person I was talking with (not Jebel) disagrees fully about the effect banter had and he didnt miss it as t all in ME2.

Kalfear wrote...

But they were, Maybe its the purely linear and unbending way you learn about them in ME2 that bothers me.
I mean I could spit on Miranda and shoot her sister and shes going to tell me the same story at the same time every time unlike characters in DA:O where you have to influence them and by not impressing them you stop the sharing or at least the character shares less.

ME2, do what ever you want, Party member going to tell their little bit of story (Thane being the one exception, Thane ALMOST found the right amount and degree of story). But thats just it, their little bit. It really doesnt tell you anything but that little specific story, you still dont know their passions or what makes them tick. What you learn is shallow and only enough to set up the Loyalty quests in most cases.

I want to know about my squadmates so I can make a connection with them.

Ashley was a army brat, has a sister, is god fearing. None of this really matters but it builds up the character so you form a connection.
Liara, you learn so much about Liara in ME1, or Wrex, or Garrus, and even Tali. 
Hell they basically didnt wroite anything for Garrus or Tali in ME2 as ME1 told you so much (big mistake)

DA:O- you learn so freaking much about your group members. Some transfers to side quests, much doesnt. Its background information to form a connection and bond with those characters, and you do.

When someone tells me they formed a bond in ME2 I just roll my eyes and dismiss them to be honest (like those that say they RPG fans but dont care about RPG elements being stripped in ME2). Only people that formed a bond or connection with the NPCs of ME2 are those that went in LOOKING TO rather then letting the game develope the needed storyline and atmoshphere required. Me personally (and many many many many many many others that have posted about this) want the game to do the work. If I just go in expecting the connection regardless, I may as well post about pokemon being a RPG.

sorry Jebel, but ME2 most definately did lack in personal connections and emotional connections to the squadmates. Those connections require backstories and personalities that get played on during the game. ME2 was just a poorly wrote novel that lacked emotion. I know you know what I mean as you seem literate enough to have experience a wide variety of writings. Some are excellent, some, not so much. ME2 was the not so much.

PS: I think your 100% correct that the ME2 crowd thought the banter in the elevators were a issue!

To be hinest, I thought same thing when I read on old boards the complaints about the elevators.
I always loved the elevator rides and intentionally rode them to make sure I heard all the conversations each game

if they hadn't thrown in a couple of lines about ashley's family (and it ties in with her grandad) she would have been a shallow xenophobic character, but you can't tell me Mordin, for example didn't have at least double the amount of depth and lines - you learn about his nephew, for example, singing, his interests, all the history of his time in STG, all about the genophage, he teases you about your romance....Legion, you learn not only about the different geth factions, but their outlook, their future, how they see things as a completely different form of life, why he tracked you around the galaxy etc - as a science fiction fan, legion is a wet-dream of good writing.
to overlook all that is staggering.
the dlc characters do lack a bit of depth (though zaeed, initially the one i ignored has some very funny stuff it you visit him), but again that is a techincal integration issue rather than a "purposely left shallow" one. tbh i think some people's personal biases are preventing them from seeing the true depth that was in me2 (in as much as in some cases not even bothering to recruit some members - i mean: WTF?).
i don't disagree about the banter, kalfear, in fact i'd love more - anything that breathes yet more life and depth into the characters in particular is welcome - fleshing out more of the rpg aspect of the game, but currently on a technical level i just don't see how it can be done for a big cast, without devolving into me1's well-known technical issues (framerate, slowdown, disc-accessing).
my problem with the elevators is that being closed-off they are boring to look at, and if you have to use them often, get old pretty fast, with only a few broadcasts and banter conversations happening. now in me2, you could get all the (new) news if you wanted at any time by accessing a news terminal - surely that's better [i]role-playing[/]i? at least with loading screens, you just wait for the reasonable time a then you have a new environment to marvel at. also the elevators were immersion-breaking in not giving you the scale of where you were (again, enclosed), and given the distances you were supposed to be travelling, moving nowhere near fast enough.

compared to literary science fiction, both mass effect games come up short - but i can live with that because they get better every time, it's a developing medium and, unlike books, you are very limited by the current technology. compared to banks, hamilton, asher etc that i read it's not a fair comparison, but if you compare with films, then mass effect series comes off a lot better.

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 09 juin 2010 - 08:11 .

[Kalfear]

Nightwriter wrote...

Exactly! I rode the elevators every single time JUST to hear the banter, that's how important it was.

I remember groaning with disappointment every time I got on and the news played instead, some announcement I'd heard a thousand times before.

I was like "I know a salarian excavation team has run into a recent problem at a Prothean dig site, shut up so I can hear my damn squaddies talk!!"

As for what characters tell you, well, there's only so much Bioware can do to make you feel you're discovering their backstories naturally. In ME2 the entire game revolved around the characters, and you HAD to do their loyalty missions if you didn't want to miss out on 50% of the game's content. You have to learn about their backstories sometime.

And you know, I imagine Bioware's about tired by now of us mentioning Dragon Age every damn time we talk about character handling. Well, it's your own fault, Bioware! You shouldn't have set the bar so high!

LOL, your so right about the salarian excavation team and lets not forget about the Elcor Hamlet (which was also in ME2).

You and I were on the same wave lenght far as elevators go.

As far as DA:O, well your bang on there as well. They set the bar very high, expanded on something Obsidian did with KotOR2, and it was awsome. I love the concept of what you saying haveing repercussions on those around you. both good and bad. ME2 is playschool or Kindergarden compared to DA:O character development style/mechanics. What you say and how you act SHOULD affect those around you. Everyone always goes on and on about wanting more realism, well this is realism.

SSV Enterprise wrote...

You are entitled to your opinion, Kalfear.  But I respectfully disagree.  ME2 characters had just as much backstory as the characters in Mass Effect 1- Thane had his wife and son, Miranda had her father andsister, Mordin had his service with the STG, etc.  But more than that, each of their backstories figured into their loyalty missions.  In ME1, Ashley, Kaidan, and Tali's backstory never came up while on missions.  Liara's did, but in a very limited way- the mission on Noveria is hardly changed whether Liara comes with you or not.  Garrus and Wrex get side missions with very simple resolutions- for Garrus, you find a guy, talk abit, then kill him.  For Wrex, you go shoot some guys, retrieve his armor, and that's it.  ME2's loyalty missions were all far more complex, with the past of characters coming to haunt them, characters confronting their pasts, or new problems arising from their backgrounds.  It added to their character development, making them seem more like real people and less like audio recordings.

yes, each backstory tied into their loyalty mission but thats basically where it ended.
You mention Thanes son (I loved Thanes story btw and was only one I was reasonably happy with). Thanes loyalty mission was all about Thanes son.

Thats a good starting point but I want more (which to be fair in Thanes case they did give).

Miranda a better example. Miranada told us about cerberus and her father and sister. Welp her father and sister were her loyalty quest and she had to anser about cerberus as she was representing them How about more then that though? Is she religious? Has she ever been in love? What are her passions? What makes her tick? What does she think of the other squadmates? All of this was needed IMO to build a proper backstory AS WELL AS the information she gave us.

Instead we got the bare minimum and were asked to imagine the rest. Some folks did exactly that but some of us want the attention to detail covered.

In ME1, Ashley told us how she became a soldier, about her father, her sister, life as a army brat, her religion, WHY she likes Sheppard. None of it was for a Loyalty mission, it was all back story to create a emotional connection to the character, and it succeeded. Then as a bonus we learned how she interacted with other squadmates in the elevator banter.

But as I said to Writer above, I didnt want ME1 copied, I wanted it expanded on. If they were going to copy anything they should have copied DA:O that gave us mounds and mounds and mounds of backstory and personality (as well as loyalty missions for them all) but you had to EARN that information. It wasnt just handed to you.

SSV Enterprise wrote...

However, this system hasn't seen its full potential.  One way this could be improved is by having characters' backstories tie in with the main quest, similar to but more complex than Liara's connection with Benezia.  This would be very difficult with ~12 squad members, so to properly implement it may mean trimming down on the amount of squad members or only doing it with some.  Some is better than none, though.

In a perfect world, yes it would all tie into the main story but that might be hard for every character. I dont require that much creativity.

I just want enough personality and information to honestly start careing about (or honestly disliking as I did with Kaiden) the characters. ME2 did not have this level of detail to it, not even close. The information (excluding Thane which again was well done for the most part) was delivered in a cold fact like style and really didnt bring you closer to any character.

In the end, I still wanted to bang Miranda cause she was drawn nice, not because she won me over.
I still wanted nothing to do with Jack because she was a very 1 dimension, stereotypical "wounded" character with no depth and a vulgar mouth (sorry swearing just doesnt impress me)
Tali I didnt want to sleep with because my entire impression of Tali was still from ME1, ME2 really did nothing to enhance that story or character. The one real break through for Talis character potentially came from Legion but Tali wouldnt even talk about the fact her entire opinion of the geth society was in fact wrong.
In fact, I hate to admit it but you know who I felt the most connect to? KELLY.
Is pretty bad when a secondary character leaves more of a emotional imprint then many of the main characters.
I know im not alone in this cause the love Kelly Chambers thread is pretty dang long.

SSV Enterprise wrote...
Also, on the topic of elevators and party banter:  With regards to elevators, I do agree that this was overall a step down from ME1.  The banter in elevators was a wonderful idea- instead of having us watch useless loading screens, sometimes show characters talking, and contribute a little bit to character development!  However, some dimwitted fans/detractors of the first game mistook the elevator rides as just there for the heck of it, not for loading, and criticized them.  BioWare unwisely listened to them, and instead replaced elevator rides in ME2 with dull loading screens, which ME2 still got criticized for being too long.  ME3 should go back to this system.

However, though conversations and banter were no longer held in elevators, they were just as present in ME2.  Party members will make comments in hub worlds and on missions just like in Dragon Age, some of which need a point of interest to be selected by the player in order to trigger.

yeah but those conversations were normally 1 liners or short discriptions said by the personassociated to the clicking point and never followed up by others there.
There was no conversation like in the elevator.
Plus you had to click to initiate. There is something to be said for random conversations breaking out!

As I said before, ME2 suffers from far to little interaction and communication. If I was team lead for the project, I would have DEMANDED no less then 3 times the amount of conversations. If thats to much for 10-12 character, we drop a couple characters and do them right!

Some times less is more and if you can only do 10-12 character partially, you drop a couple characters and do them all PROPERLY!

I dont know about you but ive NEVER had a job or career where doing something halfway was acceptable!

[Jebel Krong]

Kalfear wrote...

LOL, your so right about the salarian excavation team and lets not forget about the Elcor Hamlet (which was also in ME2).

not only was elcor hamlet done in me2, it was done in visual and audio form, as was "citadel!" a cinematic retelling of the first game, so in addition to audio news reports, you also had all the audio/video advertisments as well. you simply had to look for them. also the news reports mentioned other stuff happeneing in the universe not relating to just your activities (or related to your activities in the first game, like the destiny ascension), which i thought was rather good.

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 09 juin 2010 - 08:29 .

[SSV Enterprise]

Kalfear wrote...

yes, each backstory tied into their loyalty mission but thats basically where it ended.
You mention Thanes son (I loved Thanes story btw and was only one I was reasonably happy with). Thanes loyalty mission was all about Thanes son.

Thats a good starting point but I want more (which to be fair in Thanes case they did give).

Miranda a better example. Miranada told us about cerberus and her father and sister. Welp her father and sister were her loyalty quest and she had to anser about cerberus as she was representing them How about more then that though? Is she religious? Has she ever been in love? What are her passions? What makes her tick? What does she think of the other squadmates? All of this was needed IMO to build a proper backstory AS WELL AS the information she gave us.

Instead we got the bare minimum and were asked to imagine the rest. Some folks did exactly that but some of us want the attention to detail covered.

In ME1, Ashley told us how she became a soldier, about her father, her sister, life as a army brat, her religion, WHY she likes Sheppard. None of it was for a Loyalty mission, it was all back story to create a emotional connection to the character, and it succeeded. Then as a bonus we learned how she interacted with other squadmates in the elevator banter.

But as I said to Writer above, I didnt want ME1 copied, I wanted it expanded on. If they were going to copy anything they should have copied DA:O that gave us mounds and mounds and mounds of backstory and personality (as well as loyalty missions for them all) but you had to EARN that information. It wasnt just handed to you.

In ME2, you get much the same thing with Miranda as you did with Ashley.  You learn about how she joined Cerberus, her father, her sister (directly), her friend Niko, her genetic modifications, her convictions about Cerberus, her time spent reviving you, her opinion of you, etc.  The details are different, but there's no less detail.

I agree that DA:O's character interaction was better than both ME1 and ME2.

In a perfect world, yes it would all tie into the main story but that might be hard for every character. I dont require that much creativity.

I just want enough personality and information to honestly start careing about (or honestly disliking as I did with Kaiden) the characters. ME2 did not have this level of detail to it, not even close. The information (excluding Thane which again was well done for the most part) was delivered in a cold fact like style and really didnt bring you closer to any character.

In the end, I still wanted to bang Miranda cause she was drawn nice, not because she won me over.
I still wanted nothing to do with Jack because she was a very 1 dimension, stereotypical "wounded" character with no depth and a vulgar mouth (sorry swearing just doesnt impress me)
Tali I didnt want to sleep with because my entire impression of Tali was still from ME1, ME2 really did nothing to enhance that story or character. The one real break through for Talis character potentially came from Legion but Tali wouldnt even talk about the fact her entire opinion of the geth society was in fact wrong.
In fact, I hate to admit it but you know who I felt the most connect to? KELLY.
Is pretty bad when a secondary character leaves more of a emotional imprint then many of the main characters.
I know im not alone in this cause the love Kelly Chambers thread is pretty dang long.

With regards to how the information was given on each character, I have to say that Mass Effect 2 was better than ME1 on a technical level.  In ME1, conversations entailed just standing and talking.  No movement on the part of the characters or camera other than a few gestures.  In ME2, your squad members could walk around, sit, stand, etc., during a conversation, feeling less like mannequins.  In this regard, character interactions were much more "real" than in ME1.

yeah but those conversations were normally 1 liners or short discriptions said by the personassociated to the clicking point and never followed up by others there.
There was no conversation like in the elevator.
Plus you had to click to initiate. There is something to be said for random conversations breaking out!

As I said before, ME2 suffers from far to little interaction and communication. If I was team lead for the project, I would have DEMANDED no less then 3 times the amount of conversations. If thats to much for 10-12 character, we drop a couple characters and do them right!

Some times less is more and if you can only do 10-12 character partially, you drop a couple characters and do them all PROPERLY!

I dont know about you but ive NEVER had a job or career where doing something halfway was acceptable!

Sometimes the conversations were 1 liners, but not always.  For example, on the Citadel, in the security terminal you can click on a point and Thane will comment that security holes he could exploit have doubled since he last was there, and that he would expect the center of galactic government to have the best security in the galaxy.  Garrus then comments that he was at C-Sec long enough to know that's not true.  Also, when you're walking in the Citadel, Garrus will randomly remind Tali of the conversations they used to have in elevators, and try to have one.  Tali ends the conversation with the "I have a shotgun" line.

[KalosCast]

Jebel Krong wrote...

KalosCast wrote...

I think the idea of the "hot-spots" to chat with your characters is an ultimately better solution, though one with more interaction between the two characters would be preferred, so it's more like "elevator banter." Unfortunately, there's far too many pairings for a "line and response" type of dialog (132, 11 different people to respond to 12 different people's openers) so you'd probably have to limit it further between characters that are likely to have a meaningful back and forth.

this. you have to balance your requests with what is doable in a reasonable time frame (related to it's relative payoff) and technically possible. a bit like people wanting customisable armour for all their squad - the memory usage to hold/stream all that info is just not doable on a 360, and is redundant anyway with the much better unique outfits (yes that's personal opinion). the fact that me2 had specific areas where you could get crewmates' opinions is indicative of this.

Yeah, assuming that each person starts a conversation with each other person, that's 132 conversations. However, we're going to need at least two different ones for each of those pairings or else it's going to be really grating and redundant, bringing us to at least 264. Let's also assume that a quarter of them end with a disagreement and need a follow-up, that's now 330. Plus, since ME3 is the "big deal" finale, let's throw in another two conversations apiece, these will reflect the changing tone after the big mid-point reveal (it's a BW game, there'll be a big mid-point reveal). That brings us up to 594. That is 594 conversations recorded so you can probably hear 8 or 9 over the course of the game, especially since everyone has their own favorit party. That doesn't include all the advertisement announcments on places like Illium and the Citadel, as well as throaway dialog as you pass by people, and (probably changing) galactic news blurbs all of which I'd be more upset if they took out, even if we got banter. This isn't Dragon Age, news travels fast and I want to hear about what I just did 30 minutes ago.

Though, really. You should take this as an agrument against having so many squadmates than an argument against party banter.

Modifié par KalosCast, 09 juin 2010 - 04:54 .

[finnithe]

Kalfear wrote...

PS: I think your 100% correct that the ME2 crowd thought the banter in the elevators were a issue!

To be hinest, I thought same thing when I read on old boards the complaints about the elevators.
I always loved the elevator rides and intentionally rode them to make sure I heard all the conversations each game

I don't know where you're getting this from. I preferred ME2 to ME1 but like I said before I wanted more interaction between the party members. People who didn't like the elevator rides didn't like them because they were very long for them. In fact, I've watched videos where elevator rides took upwards to almost one minute, which is really long. You might not have experienced this, but some people certainly did. Even then, the party banter only took up part of the elevator ride for me, I would prefer that the banter takes place outside of elevators as well as inside them.

[Kalfear]

finnithe wrote...

Kalfear wrote...

PS: I think your 100% correct that the ME2 crowd thought the banter in the elevators were a issue!

To be hinest, I thought same thing when I read on old boards the complaints about the elevators.
I always loved the elevator rides and intentionally rode them to make sure I heard all the conversations each game

I don't know where you're getting this from. I preferred ME2 to ME1 but like I said before I wanted more interaction between the party members. People who didn't like the elevator rides didn't like them because they were very long for them. In fact, I've watched videos where elevator rides took upwards to almost one minute, which is really long. You might not have experienced this, but some people certainly did. Even then, the party banter only took up part of the elevator ride for me, I would prefer that the banter takes place outside of elevators as well as inside them.

From the endless one liner complaints

I hate Elevators!

Finn, many many many people didnt expand on what they didnt like about elevators and just said they hated elevators!

So based on the action that was eventually taken, on has to assume the ME2 dev team thought the complaints were about everything associated to elevators and not just loading times because the banter was removed from the game!

If everyone had wrote "I loved the banter but hated the elevator load time", you got to think the banter would have beeen added to game somewhere else!

no?