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[Onyx Jaguar]

Well they tried the "hotboxes" but that really was poorly implemented. The only time I remember worthwhile convos like that was that instance on the Stairs with Tali and Garrus as well as Mordin and Kasumi on Mordin's loyalty mission (but that was DLC).



There was a couple of interesting ones that were cut out, my guess is that they were cut out because the triggers didn't work.



There was much too few and too far between. Plus characters barely had any interaction with each other aside from double dialogue (like for instance Tali and Thane might as well not exist in the same universe).



Illium was big enough to include a convo trigger here or there. Same for Omega.

[Kalfear]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Well they tried the "hotboxes" but that really was poorly implemented. The only time I remember worthwhile convos like that was that instance on the Stairs with Tali and Garrus as well as Mordin and Kasumi on Mordin's loyalty mission (but that was DLC).

There was a couple of interesting ones that were cut out, my guess is that they were cut out because the triggers didn't work.

There was much too few and too far between. Plus characters barely had any interaction with each other aside from double dialogue (like for instance Tali and Thane might as well not exist in the same universe).

Illium was big enough to include a convo trigger here or there. Same for Omega.

Oh yes, Illium, Citidel, Omega were definately big enough for conversation triggers. I hope no one argues that point.

I was so disappointed with Mordins loyalty quest (not the story which was ok, not perfect but ok) as I took Grunt with me figureing Grunt would have something to say about the whole genphage issue (much like I assumed Miranda and Jack would get into it during Jacks Loyalty Mission) but once again, I was disappointed with nothing special being said between characters.

Oh sorry reply so late! Game 6 of Stanley Cup finals trumps conversations about Mass Effect 2  

[Kalfear]

While we discussing interaction and what I feel was poor character design, here is one of my main complaints from anouther thread andd my reply in it! This just proves much of my point about how poorly the interaction between NPC and character was handled in ME2.

Commodore Q wrote...



I dont get the whole paragon and renegade system, its ment to be based on your own aligment, i've almost maxed out paragon but i still couldnt pick the paragon opition when Miranda and Jack had there little confrontation, now miranda wont speak to me and i still cant choose a paragon or renegade opition to get around it.



am i missing something here?

Kalfear wrote...



Sadly there is no "I just wanna be freinds" option in Mass Effect 2 so if you not actively romancing Jack or Miranda, they have nothing to say to you after that confrontation!



Very poor character design on the part of the devs if you ask me.



I tried and tried and tried to find out about them both but Miranda wouldnt speak to me and being nice to Jack means you are romancing her (such stupidity) so had to break it off and all she says is F off to me now.



The whole "were not sleeping togather so we cant speak" mentality of ME2 is one of my top 5 complaints about game to be honest! Mirandas, Jacks, and Talis characters all could have been expanded so much more it the devs dropped this childish sschool yard attitude of men and women cant be just freinds.

Whats your take on this aspect?

[Jebel Krong]

Kalfear wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Well they tried the "hotboxes" but that really was poorly implemented. The only time I remember worthwhile convos like that was that instance on the Stairs with Tali and Garrus as well as Mordin and Kasumi on Mordin's loyalty mission (but that was DLC).

There was a couple of interesting ones that were cut out, my guess is that they were cut out because the triggers didn't work.

There was much too few and too far between. Plus characters barely had any interaction with each other aside from double dialogue (like for instance Tali and Thane might as well not exist in the same universe).

Illium was big enough to include a convo trigger here or there. Same for Omega.

Oh yes, Illium, Citidel, Omega were definately big enough for conversation triggers. I hope no one argues that point.

I was so disappointed with Mordins loyalty quest (not the story which was ok, not perfect but ok) as I took Grunt with me figureing Grunt would have something to say about the whole genphage issue (much like I assumed Miranda and Jack would get into it during Jacks Loyalty Mission) but once again, I was disappointed with nothing special being said between characters.

Oh sorry reply so late! Game 6 of Stanley Cup finals trumps conversations about Mass Effect 2  

grunt doesn't care about the genophage because his own biological makeup is designed to work around it - he's the living cure - the more he breeds, the more krogan will be able to repopulate, so that whole dilemma is moot for him. plus his personality-type is not the same as wrex's - grunt is pretty much only concerned with things that interest/affect him directly - like any teenager. i felt that fit his personality quite well, actually, but you really have to play with grun a lot to figure all that out (which is why i didn't like him at first).

[Jebel Krong]

Kalfear wrote...

While we discussing interaction and what I feel was poor character design, here is one of my main complaints from anouther thread andd my reply in it! This just proves much of my point about how poorly the interaction between NPC and character was handled in ME2.

Commodore Q wrote...

I dont get the whole paragon and renegade system, its ment to be based on your own aligment, i've almost maxed out paragon but i still couldnt pick the paragon opition when Miranda and Jack had there little confrontation, now miranda wont speak to me and i still cant choose a paragon or renegade opition to get around it.

am i missing something here?

some of convos are rated extremely high - you have to get the class skill which boosts your influence to 100% - that one and tali/legion and morinth/samara are the three that spring to mind. tbh the only one i ever had problems with were the latter two.

Kalfear wrote...

Sadly there is no "I just wanna be freinds" option in Mass Effect 2 so if you not actively romancing Jack or Miranda, they have nothing to say to you after that confrontation!

Very poor character design on the part of the devs if you ask me.

I tried and tried and tried to find out about them both but Miranda wouldnt speak to me and being nice to Jack means you are romancing her (such stupidity) so had to break it off and all she says is F off to me now.

The whole "were not sleeping togather so we cant speak" mentality of ME2 is one of my top 5 complaints about game to be honest! Mirandas, Jacks, and Talis characters all could have been expanded so much more it the devs dropped this childish sschool yard attitude of men and women cant be just freinds.

Whats your take on this aspect?

that's simply a result of having a lot of characters and deciding where to invest resources in maximising benefit for all - sure everyone would like more, but the game was developed in a little over 2 years, i can live with it, i don't like it but i can certainly understand why it's like that.

[Kalfear]

Jebel Krong wrote...

Kalfear wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Well they tried the "hotboxes" but that really was poorly implemented. The only time I remember worthwhile convos like that was that instance on the Stairs with Tali and Garrus as well as Mordin and Kasumi on Mordin's loyalty mission (but that was DLC).

There was a couple of interesting ones that were cut out, my guess is that they were cut out because the triggers didn't work.

There was much too few and too far between. Plus characters barely had any interaction with each other aside from double dialogue (like for instance Tali and Thane might as well not exist in the same universe).

Illium was big enough to include a convo trigger here or there. Same for Omega.

Oh yes, Illium, Citidel, Omega were definately big enough for conversation triggers. I hope no one argues that point.

I was so disappointed with Mordins loyalty quest (not the story which was ok, not perfect but ok) as I took Grunt with me figureing Grunt would have something to say about the whole genphage issue (much like I assumed Miranda and Jack would get into it during Jacks Loyalty Mission) but once again, I was disappointed with nothing special being said between characters.

Oh sorry reply so late! Game 6 of Stanley Cup finals trumps conversations about Mass Effect 2  

grunt doesn't care about the genophage because his own biological makeup is designed to work around it - he's the living cure - the more he breeds, the more krogan will be able to repopulate, so that whole dilemma is moot for him. plus his personality-type is not the same as wrex's - grunt is pretty much only concerned with things that interest/affect him directly - like any teenager. i felt that fit his personality quite well, actually, but you really have to play with grun a lot to figure all that out (which is why i didn't like him at first).

I did Mordins quest after Grunt becomes part of Wrexs clan and is invited to visit the women!

So I do think at that point in time he cares why they cant produce children and would care if he knew WHO had created and implimented the genophage!

Besides, you dont have to be effected by something to care. Grunt is a Krogan, the genophage effects the Krogans, I still maintain he cares if for no other reason then hes presented with the information the Krogan would kill for.

[Jebel Krong]

Kalfear wrote...

I did Mordins quest after Grunt becomes part of Wrexs clan and is invited to visit the women!

So I do think at that point in time he cares why they cant produce children and would care if he knew WHO had created and implimented the genophage!

Besides, you dont have to be effected by something to care. Grunt is a Krogan, the genophage effects the Krogans, I still maintain he cares if for no other reason then hes presented with the information the Krogan would kill for.

doesn't matter - grunt is tank-bred and okeer's imprints had no effect on him - he literally doeesn't give a crap about anything/anyone at first. it's only after going through the right he starts appreciating his heritage. even then, given his makeup, he doesn't care about the genophage because it's a non-issue for him.

[Onyx Jaguar]

While that makes sense in way, there is some indication that Bioware felt that the dialogue was lacking when Kasumi's DLC added in a conversation with Mordin on that mission. A simple conversation about those Krogan's being weak (as would fit Grunt's mindset) would have sufficed.

[Kalfear]

Jebel Krong wrote...

Kalfear wrote...

I did Mordins quest after Grunt becomes part of Wrexs clan and is invited to visit the women!

So I do think at that point in time he cares why they cant produce children and would care if he knew WHO had created and implimented the genophage!

Besides, you dont have to be effected by something to care. Grunt is a Krogan, the genophage effects the Krogans, I still maintain he cares if for no other reason then hes presented with the information the Krogan would kill for.

doesn't matter - grunt is tank-bred and okeer's imprints had no effect on him - he literally doeesn't give a crap about anything/anyone at first. it's only after going through the right he starts appreciating his heritage. even then, given his makeup, he doesn't care about the genophage because it's a non-issue for him.

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

While that makes sense in way, there is some indication that Bioware felt that the dialogue was lacking when Kasumi's DLC added in a conversation with Mordin on that mission. A simple conversation about those Krogan's being weak (as would fit Grunt's mindset) would have sufficed.

Very true Onyx. The fix would have been easy but the ommision was very evident (at least to me)

Jeb, I really think alot of people close their minds to much cause Grunt was tank bred.
Grunt was also mentally implanted to like and hate the same things his creater liked and hated.
That imprint didnt quite work but the curiosity would at least be there!

Not to mention the POWER Grunt would have over Mordin knowing Mordin created and carried out the genophage!

Lets assume your right and Grunt didnt care (still disagree). Grunt would care about the power he would have from the knowledge and wouldnt be shy in telling Mordin that!

As onyx said, simple little chat would have fixed it all and gone so much farther in the protrayal of Grunts character!

You know what would have been great, Sheppard having to talk to Grunt and telling him he has to let this information go for the good of the upcoming battle and team, there by showing how loyal and dedicated Grunt had become to Sheppard much like the stand off with Wrex in ME1.

Before that stand off in ME1, you really didnt know if you could trust Wrex, but after it left no question. Grunt needed something like that in his storyline as well.

[Jebel Krong]

do you really think grunt is about the blackmail? grunt is a self-interested teenager. he respects physical strength, not intelligence, grunt posed no threat on mordin's sidequest (and i generally take both to tuchunka together in my playthroughs to do both loyalty missions). i really don't think you understood his personality - he is totally different from wrex (who would probably have either killed mordin or used the info against him).

[Kalfear]

Jebel Krong wrote...

do you really think grunt is about the blackmail? grunt is a self-interested teenager. he respects physical strength, not intelligence, grunt posed no threat on mordin's sidequest (and i generally take both to tuchunka together in my playthroughs to do both loyalty missions). i really don't think you understood his personality - he is totally different from wrex (who would probably have either killed mordin or used the info against him).

Blackmail? not so much but saying "I know something that im leaving untouched at this moment for good of team", yes I can see that!

Ill also submit that if I failed to get the whole Grunt story after safeing him  twice and playing to end once with him in my main group most of time, then the fault falls on ME2 devs and writers as I had no problem understanding the personalities and stand out tendancies of the ME1 crew.

I still think you reading way to much into the tank breeding and subsequent discussions with him (which again is the devs and writers fault for not being clearer on matters) after wards. Some of it I get but not all of it. Not sure where you getting it all from to be honest, and seems to me your ignoreing other things to make this personality write up!

Yes the implanting failed but its still apart of Grunt and that means careing about the genophage is as well, double so when he gets adopted into a clan!

Modifié par Kalfear, 14 juin 2010 - 05:24 .

[Nightwriter]

ME2 had characters with just as rich and developed backgrounds as the ones in ME1.

I think what you may be complaining about is the fact that your relationship with the ME2 cast was obligatory. When you make bonding mandatory the heart no longer sees it as bonding. It has become a chore.

Which fits, considering there was something almost tedious about going through all the loyalty quests. How can I feel warm fuzzy feelings about a chore?

Beyond that it seems what you are asking for, Kalfear, is more content, something every gamer this side of the moon asks for and which is needed in 9 cases out of 10 in all videogames. I try to recognize there’s only so much they can put in given the limitations of development constraints.

[Kalfear]

Nightwriter wrote...

ME2 had characters with just as rich and developed backgrounds as the ones in ME1.

I think what you may be complaining about is the fact that your relationship with the ME2 cast was obligatory. When you make bonding mandatory the heart no longer sees it as bonding. It has become a chore.

Which fits, considering there was something almost tedious about going through all the loyalty quests. How can I feel warm fuzzy feelings about a chore?

Beyond that it seems what you are asking for, Kalfear, is more content, something every gamer this side of the moon asks for and which is needed in 9 cases out of 10 in all videogames. I try to recognize there’s only so much they can put in given the limitations of development constraints.

Your definately right about me not careing about the ME2 characters. I didnt and it was a common complaint based on what I read being posted after game released.

But I disagree that they were as rich and developed as the ones in ME1 either.

Fact is I knew how ME1 characters would react to situations, other then maybe Thane and Mordin, (and Grunt but thats just cause hes a undeveloped meat sheild type character, not from any real development) I really couldnt tell how anyone would respond beyound a very generic and basic understanding of them!

Jacob was the military guy. I have no idea what makes him tick or what he beleives in but if its military hes usually ok with it!

Miranda is cerberus. Cerberus rescued her so now shes a mindless pawn for them till the very end of game if shes loyal to you. Again, no clue what makes her tick, what her passions are, what she beleives in deep down.

List goes on and on. Thane I feel I know and Mordin I feel I have a good idea about, beyond that, Im sorry but these characters were NOT rich and developed in Mass Effect 2.

I hear shooter fanbois saying this over and over but I just do not agree.

Jebel likes to minimalize a line here and there about characters of Me1 but fact is those odd lines told you things and gave you insight into the characters of ME1. Those 1 liners are missing in ME2.

And yes, your right. My biggest complaint with ME2 is content. Its to combat/shooter oreintated and missing far to much storyline and content.
 
I have said many times, ME2 should have shipped as is but with 3 -4 times the communications content currently in game! If that means we wait 2 more months for game to ship then so be it but because it shipped the way it did, the common and most frequent complaint about game is its dumbed down. Its a mnindless shooter with a back story.

Every situation is combat. In ME1 you could resolve a situation with combat or words depending on your character and the story you were creating!
In ME2 its shoot first second and third and dont ask questions after.

Thats a shooter with a back story by every definition
Thats not a RPG with shooter qualities.

[Jebel Krong]

tbh it sounds like you had preconceived notions of not liking the me2 characters from the start, kalfear, and simply stuck to that rather than trying to get to know them as you did the me1 crew. grunt took the longest for me to figure out, but once i did it makes perfect sense: at the beginning he's just a lab-spawned monster, uncaring, unfeeling and almost child-like, with rage against everything for no reason, no purpose. slowly, as you talk to him he develops, he starts to find some purpose, a way to channel his rage and connect with his krogan heritage, spanning his loyalty quest where he finds the "belonging" and purpose he didn't know he lack, with shepard as his battlemaster he becomes whole. how is that not cool? don't get me wrong i loved wrex, but i loved wrex even more in me2 when you catch up with him and the fondness and admiration for each other is there, and his new purpose in life, even the way he helps you with grunt, it's almost perfect.



Miranda is cold at the start, but again, once you talk to her she gradually opens up, and her loyalty quest is one of the most emotionally engaging of all the missions. she is "no mindless pawn of cerberus" as you put it, but an individual with a deep sense of purpose - protecting her sister and humanity as a whole.



the fact that you dismissed such characters so easily in your post is disappointing and very telling.

[Kalfear]

Jebel Krong wrote...

tbh it sounds like you had preconceived notions of not liking the me2 characters from the start, kalfear, and simply stuck to that rather than trying to get to know them as you did the me1 crew. grunt took the longest for me to figure out, but once i did it makes perfect sense: at the beginning he's just a lab-spawned monster, uncaring, unfeeling and almost child-like, with rage against everything for no reason, no purpose. slowly, as you talk to him he develops, he starts to find some purpose, a way to channel his rage and connect with his krogan heritage, spanning his loyalty quest where he finds the "belonging" and purpose he didn't know he lack, with shepard as his battlemaster he becomes whole. how is that not cool? don't get me wrong i loved wrex, but i loved wrex even more in me2 when you catch up with him and the fondness and admiration for each other is there, and his new purpose in life, even the way he helps you with grunt, it's almost perfect.

Miranda is cold at the start, but again, once you talk to her she gradually opens up, and her loyalty quest is one of the most emotionally engaging of all the missions. she is "no mindless pawn of cerberus" as you put it, but an individual with a deep sense of purpose - protecting her sister and humanity as a whole.

the fact that you dismissed such characters so easily in your post is disappointing and very telling.

Quite the opposite Jebel!

I went into ME2 thinking I would hate the combat but the RPG goodness of game would save the day for me!

Turns out the combat didnt bug me half as much as I thought it would but the dumbed down RPG elements really ruined game for me!

So sorry but I went into ME2 expecting it to be one of my most favorite games of all time!

The product itself didnt stand up to that expectation!

And you know, if I was say 1 in 5000 that posted these complaints, I might even write it off as game just didnt appeal to me (it happens) but I wasnt 1 in 5000. There was a crap load of complaints about this game and most echoed my feelings. For the first month after release it was like 5-10 complaints for every 1 positive post (by different people, not same person posting over and over).

I could say same thing to you, sounds like you went in having decided this game was the greatest thing since sliced bread and no amount of negative feedback or thought out posts will deter you from that sliver you grasping ahold of.

I have explained in great depth why I feel these characters were not deep and well designed. I have been more then patient with getting back nothing more then "yes they were" as replies.

PROVE IT. Show me where and when this great immersion happened cause me and thousands of others (that posted, lord knows how many that didnt) not seeing it.

I told a freind from TOR about my debate here and he laughed himself offline at the consept of ME2 being immersive or a RPG of any nature (and he doesnt post here EVER).

So floors all yours! Prove your case cause I have a dozen times over and your just ignoreing or dismissing my opinion because its not yours but you have yet to rationalize your opinion in any way. Give me indepth expamples where the immersion happened. Not concepts you fleshed out in you mind but hard facts that can be seen in game!

Sorry if this sounds agrivated but I find you telling me I had preconceived notions, simply because I dont agree with you, annoying as im the only one giveing hard examples to back up my position!

[Nightwriter]

Kalfear I liked that the ME2 crew was less predictable. I did not know how they would react, I did not know all there was to them. For this reason they felt like deeper and more realistic characters to me. I felt like I had more to explore.

I did feel like my time with them, for whatever reason, was briefer, as the whole pacing of the game felt rushed for some reason. So I felt like I only got a glimpse into these characters, but I felt like the quality of that glimpse was good.

There was too much combat and not enough RPG.

There were times when I thought if I saw another stupid mission I could care less about where I had to kill another group of random mercs, I’d explode. Mercs, mercs, mercs, I’m so tired of these damn freaking mercs, they're like the Thing That Wouldn't Die, and they're f*cking everywhere!

But I seriously liked the characters and I felt like there was more to them. They introduced people with conflicts and struggles.

I think whether or not you feel like you got a true sense of a character is a completely subjective thing. I don’t know why you, subjectively, were unsatisfied with the way they handled characters in ME2 as compared to ME1, as I haven’t been keeping up with the conversation out of shameless laziness. And though I would like to know, I can see you and Jebel seemed to have ragequit on one another, so I hesitate to ask and provoke… frustrations.

[Kalfear]

Nightwriter wrote...

Kalfear I liked that the ME2 crew was less predictable. I did not know how they would react, I did not know all there was to them. For this reason they felt like deeper and more realistic characters to me. I felt like I had more to explore.

I did feel like my time with them, for whatever reason, was briefer, as the whole pacing of the game felt rushed for some reason. So I felt like I only got a glimpse into these characters, but I felt like the quality of that glimpse was good.

There was too much combat and not enough RPG.

There were times when I thought if I saw another stupid mission I could care less about where I had to kill another group of random mercs, I’d explode. Mercs, mercs, mercs, I’m so tired of these damn freaking mercs, they're like the Thing That Wouldn't Die, and they're f*cking everywhere!

But I seriously liked the characters and I felt like there was more to them. They introduced people with conflicts and struggles.

I think whether or not you feel like you got a true sense of a character is a completely subjective thing. I don’t know why you, subjectively, were unsatisfied with the way they handled characters in ME2 as compared to ME1, as I haven’t been keeping up with the conversation out of shameless laziness. And though I would like to know, I can see you and Jebel seemed to have ragequit on one another, so I hesitate to ask and provoke… frustrations.

LOL, no ragequit! Im just super deep into the E3 TOR releases right now (Looks freaking awsome) so havent been visiting here past couple days honestly!

Floors all Jebels to reply now cause like I said, ive said why (heck I said why in my very first post of this thread) it didnt deliver and what needs to be better for ME3 to correct that!

I havent gotten anything from Jebel as to explaining in real actual events in game as to why he thinks they deeper. As I said, he dismisses and trivializes the short one liners in ME1 but those short one liners give you alot of insight into the characters of that game and are missing in ME2.

Whats Mirandas religion? if any?
Whats Mirandas passions? if any?
Whats Mirandas goals in life?
Who are her heros? Who does she look up to?

Thats just off top of head be we know these things about the ME1 characters. We dont about the ME2 characters. Hense, they are not deeper or richer because we simply are not told the information.

The pacing clearly is part of the problem though. You 100% correct there!

Anyways, ill post again when not so single minded on TOR  Gawd that game looks awsome now and that trailer, pure magic!!!! Plus im getting close to finally playing DA:O Awakenings!