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Miranda is a horrible person


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#76
Nozybidaj

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OverlordNexas wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

Why would you listen to anything Miranda says? Every opinion she had throughout the whole game was proven wrong. Her belief in Cerberus being the "good guys", her thinking Shepard might not be up to the task, her trust in that random friend of hers that was kidnapping her sister, her not trusting Jack and being a rude ****** to her the whole time, etc., etc.

At what point did Miranda ever do anything or end up being right about something to make you think her assessment of any given situation should be listened to? :D



Well...she was right about needing a tech expert for the vent, but even a broken clock is right twice a day  ;)


True. :P  Still, I would trust Jacob's word about being able to pull off the tech specialist assignement even less than Miranda telling him he wasn't fit for it.  I can just imagine the rest of the crew's reaction while those two argued.  Lots of head shaking and face palming happened at that moment I would imagine.

#77
The Angry One

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It is however also the job of the XO to take the blame if the captain screws up by ancient naval tradition I made up just now called Shepard's Law.

Sucks to be you, Miranda. Report to the CIC for public flogging.

#78
shinobi602

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Nozybidaj wrote...

Why would you listen to anything Miranda says? Every opinion she had throughout the whole game was proven wrong. Her belief in Cerberus being the "good guys",


Yea, why would anyone trust and believe in an organization that sheltered, fed, took care of, and looked after you when you were on the run as a young adult? Makes no sense at all!!

Nozybidaj wrote... her trust in that random friend of hers that was kidnapping her sister,


Random friend? Were your eyes looking somewhere else during that mission? He was the only friend she's ever had, they were practically like brother and sister because they were so close.


Nozybidaj wrote...her not trusting Jack and being a rude ****** to her the whole time, etc., etc.


First thing Jack said to her was "Ohh, it pisses off the cheerleader, even better." Who was being rude here? Miranda didn't even say anything. And of course, the rational thing to do is immediately trust a hardened criminal whose murdered probably thousands of people and has psychotic tendencies. Who wouldn't trust her?

Modifié par shinobi602, 27 février 2010 - 04:35 .


#79
Soma Holiday

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Computron2000 wrote...

Slidell505 wrote...

Bro Garrus the only reason his squad was killed is because he was tricked and wasn't there to lead them.


Anyone find the collector boarding mission the same (Joker's mission?) If Shepard was there, there was no chance of the crew (or more than 1 or 2 anyway) being taken. He got tricked into leaving and *boom* crew's gone.


Awe, hadn't thought of that.  Shepard is such a beast.  That would have been a really fun level actually.  It could have been timed and you have to run through the ship in your civies saving people before they get taken...

I would totally watch with doctor Chakwas, Jocker, and Dirty Bags Donnelly as Kelly was carried off by the Collectors. buahaha.

#80
ODST 3

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PopDisaster wrote...

LOL

When she said any biotic could do it, I chose her. I felt like she really wanted to prove to Shep that she was good enough for something so I let her do it. Then Jack died.

But I don't think that makes her a horrible person lol

Yeah, I think she really just wanted to make her self useful. must have been pretty humiliating when she collapsed before they all got out.

#81
Soma Holiday

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Back to OP though. I thought she was particularly b!tchy through that part too. I really disliked Miranda on my first playthrough, but she's alright now...I think that's because she has overload and I use her alot, but still...



I just don't get her motivations and if she were real I would hate her immensly. I like Thane too, so he should have had a role in the suicide mission...something only he could have done.

#82
InvaderErl

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Cry on Harbinger!



I Kid, I Kid!

#83
Guest_Maviarab_*

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guardian....



If your so dumb as not understand peoples strengths and weaknesess, then thats your poroblem not a characters lol.



Also, she actually says (regarding the biotic field) that 'in theory' anyone can do it.

#84
jklinders

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Jeremy Winston wrote...

IoCaster wrote...

Jeremy Winston wrote...


Please provide examples of incompetence.  Please show how her attitude is any more crappy than a typical renegade Shepard.


Her judgment is definitely suspect throughout the game. She's an incompetent idiot and isn't qualified to serve on the Normandy in her present role.
  • The Illusive Man wouldn't intentionally send us into a trap.
  • Niket would never betray me.
  • Samara is a good choice for team leader.
  • I could do it. Any biotic could.
  • Defeatist and morale killer: We knew it was a one way trip! - Joker to Shep "I'm glad you're in charge."
  • Let's sell the Geth to Cerberus before we've taken the opportunity to interrogate it.
There are more instances of questionable judgment throughout the game. The main point is that the writers were seemingly trying to make her look as incompetent as possible or they weren't aware of how some players would react to some of her actions and dialogue. 

As far as her attitude is concerned, I don't care how you role play your Shepard, renegade or otherwise. What I do care about is having an XO that doesn't try to second guess my decisions, in front of the crew, at almost every given opportunity. I don't need a ship's officer trying to usurp my command every time she opens her obnoxious cakehole. In other words, I don't need Miranda for anything. She's dead, Jim. And likely to remain so for every one of my ME3 import save files. 

1) She didn't believe he would.  She trusts him.  She's high up in his organization.  I don't find that to be incompetent.  On top of that. TIM wasn't trying to get them killed.  It's not quite a betrayal.

2) She was wrong about Niket.  She let he emotions cloud her judgement.  This is incompetent how?  Everyone makes mistakes, including Shepard.

3) A huge segement of the playerbase believed Samara would make a good team leader.  Besides, as we've discussed, her whole dialog in the suicide mission was designed to mislead you and does not reflect on her character.

4) She was correct.  ANY biotic could.  They just don't all have the necessary endurance.  Why did she say anything at all when the best choice was right in front of you?  Again, suicide mission dialog.  

5) "We knew it was a one-way trip" is the pragmatic viewpoint to keep everyone focused on the mission.  Don't bother worrying about the ship.  If we survive and the ship if repairable, great, but the job is to kill the collectors.

6) How is this viewpoint incompetent?  Jacob wants to simply destroy it.  You find that a better solution?

AN XO's job is to keep you abreast of options.  Once she voices her concerns or suggestions, she doesn't continue to argue the point, unless you're in the briefing room where the entire object is to have open discourse.

In addition, the paragon-style Shepard is open (or mine is) to suggestion.  You've assembled a team of the absolute best people at what they do.  (You may disagree about specific characters, but that is the storyline.)  They are all deadly and independent.  They are willing to follow your lead, but they aren't military, and they're not going to blindly follow any order you give.  They have opinions and will voice them.  Don't like it?  Take on the collectors by yourself.

Frankly, this whole aspect of the game was different than I expected.  I thought it would be a DA-style loyalty thing where you spend a bunch of time keeping everyone's meter up to snuff..

No doubt, your attitude reflects how you perceived her ingame.  I don't know if your perception or mine is closer to the Miranda that the writers intended to convey.


This.

Adding emphasis on it being an XO job to offer alternatives. They actually do not have to be the best alternatives but the commanding officer should have as many ideas on the table as possible so he/she can lay out the long term plan.

as for he cold business only perspective. Well when the stakes are high enough focus on the higher goal is damn important. Miranda is perfectly written and a great character.

#85
FlyinElk212

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......YOU'RE A HORRIBLE PERSON! And you're stupid!! AND smelly!!!!!

Modifié par FlyinElk212, 27 février 2010 - 05:03 .


#86
The Angry One

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I'm amused by the notion that some think Miranda's dialog was designed to mislead you on the suicide mission but that doesn't reflect her character.

Um.. what? Since Miranda is in fact a fictional character, her dialog *is* her character and in this case if her dialog is misleading then she's either talking out of her ass or trying to get you killed.

Either doesn't reflect well on her.

#87
IoCaster

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Jeremy Winston wrote...

1) She didn't believe he would.  She trusts him.  She's high up in his organization.  I don't find that to be incompetent.  On top of that. TIM wasn't trying to get them killed.  It's not quite a betrayal.

There's plenty of evidence throughout the game that Cerberus is guilty of a slew of dirty deeds. Jacob admits as much almost in your first conversation. Blind trust and denial reflects poorly on her judgment. Bad judgment in a supposed leader is an indicator of incompetence for the role.
 
2) She was wrong about Niket.  She let he emotions cloud her judgement.  This is incompetent how?  Everyone makes mistakes, including Shepard.

How many times did she overhear the radio transmissions that were quite clear about the situation with Nikets betrayal. You even get a dialogue choice that flatly states that he betrayed her. Blind trust and denial reflects poorly on her judgment. Bad judgment in a supposed leader is an indicator of incompetence for the role.

3) A huge segement of the playerbase believed Samara would make a good team leader.  Besides, as we've discussed, her whole dialog in the suicide mission was designed to mislead you and does not reflect on her character.

Rationalize it however you want to, it was a clear attempt by the writers to convey a suspect judgment on her part. I simply take them at their word and agree. I'm stating that they did that throughout the course of the game. They kept it up and constantly reinforced the idea that she's incompetent even at the very end of the game.

4) She was correct.  ANY biotic could.  They just don't all have the necessary endurance.  Why did she say anything at all when the best choice was right in front of you?  Again, suicide mission dialog.

Why even bother at that point unless it was an intentional attempt by the writers to convince the player that Miranda is ill suited to the role of competent leadership?  

5) "We knew it was a one-way trip" is the pragmatic viewpoint to keep everyone focused on the mission.  Don't bother worrying about the ship.  If we survive and the ship if repairable, great, but the job is to kill the collectors.

Not very inspiring leadership qualities. The boots haven't even hit the ground yet and the real leader conveys a sense of optimism and can do spirit. It's kind of a "we're not done yet" bravado and something that even a born cynic like Joker appreciates.

6) How is this viewpoint incompetent?  Jacob wants to simply destroy it.  You find that a better solution?

You left out the obvious correct choice here, which is to activate and interrogate. That whole introductory segment with Legion was intentionally provocative. It was quite startling to me to hear "Shepard-Commander", while it was picking off those Husks. Again, it was the writers making a conscious decision to have her react the way she did. It's not my fault that they made her appear to not consider the value of any information that could be gleaned from questioning the salvaged Geth. I'm at the point where I believe that her primary function in the game was to act as a foil or sounding board to the player. As a consequence of that they gave her the appearance of being an incompetent boob.

AN XO's job is to keep you abreast of options.  Once she voices her concerns or suggestions, she doesn't continue to argue the point, unless you're in the briefing room where the entire object is to have open discourse.

I'll absolutely disagree with your assertion here. An XO's job is whatever the Captain designates it to be, full stop.


No doubt, your attitude reflects how you perceived her ingame.  I don't know if your perception or mine is closer to the Miranda that the writers intended to convey.


That's the question that I'm pondering. What exactly were the writers attempting to accomplish with her character? If the intent was to make me as the player accept her as a competent second to my Shepard, then in may case they failed miserably. She's dead, Jim.

#88
Guest_Maviarab_*

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The Angry One wrote...

I'm amused by the notion that some think Miranda's dialog was designed to mislead you on the suicide mission but that doesn't reflect her character.
Um.. what? Since Miranda is in fact a fictional character, her dialog *is* her character and in this case if her dialog is misleading then she's either talking out of her ass or trying to get you killed.
Either doesn't reflect well on her.



Lets look at a few percentages shall we?

The majority of the forum users here actually thoight that Zaeed would be a good choice to lead. Hmmmm
the majority of forum users here actually thought that Thane would be a good choice to run the gauntlet. Hmmmm...

Yes some characters dialogues are deliberatly misleading (blame Bioware for that one) but thats so it puts doubt in the players mind, hence we make different choices, hence our games are different.

Again, similar to what I said before, if people are so dumb that they either dont listen to all the dialogue in the game, or can't judge a character then thats their problem and no one elses. I mean seriosuly, who in their right mind would trust a burnt out vet who never manages to stop losing his squad would be a good leader?

Nothing wrong with the dialogue, its the players that need the help.

#89
The Angry One

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Not sure how anyone could consider Zaeed a good leader since every single one of his dialogs in no uncertain terms state that he gets everybody he's ever lead killed.

#90
AdamNW

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All biotic characters can make the field, but that doesn't mean they can all maintain it.



Miranda's assumptions are completely correct.

#91
Jeremy Winston

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The Angry One wrote...

I'm amused by the notion that some think Miranda's dialog was designed to mislead you on the suicide mission but that doesn't reflect her character.
Um.. what? Since Miranda is in fact a fictional character, her dialog *is* her character and in this case if her dialog is misleading then she's either talking out of her ass or trying to get you killed.
Either doesn't reflect well on her.

You have a point.

My response is that her Suicide dialog felt wrong to me, almost in it's entirety. It didn't sounds like her, to me.  So, given that, I can rationalize it as:

1) I didn't understand her properly.
2) They wrote it badly.

I chose (and it was a choice) #2.

#92
IoCaster

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AdamNW wrote...

All biotic characters can make the field, but that doesn't mean they can all maintain it.

Miranda's assumptions are completely correct.


Up until the point where someone gets hauled away by the swarm. This isn't meant to be some polite, theoretical discussion around the coffee table. Samara speaks up and flatly claims that she can do the job. Miranda can't seem to help herself and quickly interjects that "hey look at me, I'm a biotic too and I could do it". If you remember one of the first conversations with her, she claims to be able to "crush a mechs head with her mind". Yeah, I'm still waiting for a demonstration of that 'biotic goddess in human form' power. 

#93
jojon2se

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Suicide mission dialogue sounded 100% in line with the character to me.



She did her XO job of presenting options, by saying: "...in theory any biotic could do it." (and accepting whatever decision you make), AFTER first trying to call attention to herself, with what amounts to: "Hey! No! Me, me! I can do it! I'm good!".



She really really wants to live up to the high standards set upon her by her father, but for herself, not him and often overreach herself. Any insecurity, she hides behind the sort of behaviour she's grown up around; arrogance - a common bluff that is a socially accepted equivalent of punching and trampling anyone who'd try to stand anywhere near in your way, beacuse you don't really have the wits to handle situations in a reasonable manner.



I still want to see her come to learn to work with her limitations, rather than denying them, to herself as much as to others, in ME3. Much of her arrogance is deep rooted, but just peel off that top layer of make-belief unjustified hubris and she may well turn out a decent, pleasant human being, without her underlying doubts crushing her from inside.

#94
Jeremy Winston

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IoCaster wrote...

1) There's plenty of evidence throughout the game that Cerberus is guilty of a slew of dirty deeds. Jacob admits as much almost in your first conversation. Blind trust and denial reflects poorly on her judgment. Bad judgment in a supposed leader is an indicator of incompetence for the role.
 
2) How many times did she overhear the radio transmissions that were quite clear about the situation with Nikets betrayal. You even get a dialogue choice that flatly states that he betrayed her. Blind trust and denial reflects poorly on her judgment. Bad judgment in a supposed leader is an indicator of incompetence for the role.

3) Rationalize it however you want to, it was a clear attempt by the writers to convey a suspect judgment on her part. I simply take them at their word and agree. I'm stating that they did that throughout the course of the game. They kept it up and constantly reinforced the idea that she's incompetent even at the very end of the game.

4) Why even bother at that point unless it was an intentional attempt by the writers to convince the player that Miranda is ill suited to the role of competent leadership?  

5) Not very inspiring leadership qualities. The boots haven't even hit the ground yet and the real leader conveys a sense of optimism and can do spirit. It's kind of a "we're not done yet" bravado and something that even a born cynic like Joker appreciates.

6) You left out the obvious correct choice here, which is to activate and interrogate. That whole introductory segment with Legion was intentionally provocative. It was quite startling to me to hear "Shepard-Commander", while it was picking off those Husks. Again, it was the writers making a conscious decision to have her react the way she did. It's not my fault that they made her appear to not consider the value of any information that could be gleaned from questioning the salvaged Geth. I'm at the point where I believe that her primary function in the game was to act as a foil or sounding board to the player. As a consequence of that they gave her the appearance of being an incompetent boob.

AN XO's job is to keep you abreast of options.  Once she voices her concerns or suggestions, she doesn't continue to argue the point, unless you're in the briefing room where the entire object is to have open discourse.

I'll absolutely disagree with your assertion here. An XO's job is whatever the Captain designates it to be, full stop.

That's the question that I'm pondering (regarding writers' intent). What exactly were the writers attempting to accomplish with her character? If the intent was to make me as the player accept her as a competent second to my Shepard, then in may case they failed miserably. She's dead, Jim.


1) She has an explanation for all of those.  In each case, it's plausible.  Plausible, not necessarily correct or the best viewpoint, but acceptable.

2) Her inability to realize the probably betrayal from a few radio transmissions has nothing to do with it.  She is positive he's loyal to her, and it's going to take a lot before she's going to change her mind.  You are gaming the situation, and are not placing yourself in her mindset.  She's also a cocky one, so the idea that she's wrong is hard for her to accept.  I know you see that as yet an additional weakness, while I simply see it as a trait.

3) I have no real answer to that, except that I disagree.  Since this is an question of writer motivation, and this, metagame, further argument will probably be wasted.

4) No... it and other dialog were a plot mechanism to trap the player that simple goes along with the flow and fails to think.  Also, the fact of the matter is that no character is permitted in the ME universe to be better or even comparable to the Great Shepard.  Otherwise, who needs you?  I admit this is metagaming, though, and can be dismissed.

5) I hope you play an ultra-paragon Shepard all the time.  Because the RenShep has no inspiring leadership qualities at all, aside from generating fear.  She also probably makes that statement as a bit of convincing herself, but I doubt that impresses you, since you won't accept her as a complex person.

6) Of course that's left out!  That's how it's written!  The correct move, ingame, is to activate, but they can't even argue that because it's such a bonehead move. The actual best move is to give it to Cerberus where it can be turned back on and interrogated with little or no fear of having problems.  I mean, really... having Shepard reactivate it in his own AI core, with one marine to help if things go bad?  That's intelligent?  But, NO!  We all know that Legion is a squad mate, so obviously there's only one correct decision.

Regarding an XO's position.  I'm afraid you are mistaken.  I am sorry, however, that the game does not permit you to shut up all your crew such that they don't communicate at all with you, since it sounds like that's the "tight ship" you'd want to run.

And, yes.. I think we all caught the Star Trek allusion the first time you used it.

#95
Jeremy Winston

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jojon2se wrote...

Suicide mission dialogue sounded 100% in line with the character to me.

She did her XO job of presenting options, by saying: "...in theory any biotic could do it." (and accepting whatever decision you make), AFTER first trying to call attention to herself, with what amounts to: "Hey! No! Me, me! I can do it! I'm good!".

She really really wants to live up to the high standards set upon her by her father, but for herself, not him and often overreach herself. Any insecurity, she hides behind the sort of behaviour she's grown up around; arrogance - a common bluff that is a socially accepted equivalent of punching and trampling anyone who'd try to stand anywhere near in your way, beacuse you don't really have the wits to handle situations in a reasonable manner.

I still want to see her come to learn to work with her limitations, rather than denying them, to herself as much as to others, in ME3. Much of her arrogance is deep rooted, but just peel off that top layer of make-belief unjustified hubris and she may well turn out a decent, pleasant human being, without her underlying doubts crushing her from inside.


This generally fits in very much with how I see her.  Although, I confess that I did not see her suicide dialog mission in that light.

#96
IoCaster

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Jeremy Winston wrote...


Regarding an XO's position.  I'm afraid you are mistaken.  I am sorry, however, that the game does not permit you to shut up all your crew such that they don't communicate at all with you, since it sounds like that's the "tight ship" you'd want to run.

And, yes.. I think we all caught the Star Trek allusion the first time you used it.



I stated my reasoning quite clearly and I stand by it. At this point it's probably best for us to agree to disagree about Miranda. I'm not interested in attributing emotions and motivations to a fictional character. I'll just accept the dialogue as written and have no inclination to debate what the meaning of "is", is. I'm quite content to rely on the traditional definition and move on. 

As far as the job of an XO is concerned, I'll reiterate that outside of some traditional duties such as a 'white glove inspection', the Captain designates what role the XO will fill on his/her ship. In many cases the XO plays the role of observer in meetings and debriefings and would hold his/her opinion for a private consultation with the Captain. They then hash out policy with the full participation of the XO including his/her opinion and suggestions. This takes place behind closed doors and is beneficial to maintaining discipline and order aboard the vessel. The Captain of a vessel, even outside the military, has almost absolute power of decision making. It's up to each individual Captain to choose how much autonomy he/she grants to officers and crew. 

I like writing "She's dead, Jim". It warms the ****les of my cold, cold heart. :happy:

Modifié par IoCaster, 27 février 2010 - 06:23 .


#97
diskoh

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Miranda's input in the debriefing room isn't that inaccurate. She's right about Jacob being a bad tech, she's right about herself being a good fire team leader, she's right about Garrus being a good fire team leader.

The only thing she's really wrong about is Samara being a good fire team leader. But is that Miranda's fault? Samara SHOULD be a good fire team leader, she has centuries of experience being a mercenary and Justicar, which is all about tactics and strategy. That she fails is not Miranda's bad judgment, it's Samara's lack of skill at something she should be skilled at.

Did the coach of the Colts have "bad judgment" for starting Peyton Manning in the Super Bowl because they lost? No, Manning is good and gave them a good chance to win, he just failed.

Modifié par diskoh, 27 février 2010 - 06:19 .


#98
tonnactus

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GuardianAngel470 wrote...


Hey, man she said experience! Other than garrus and miranda no one has experience leading a team,


What???
Zaeed as a former merc leader doesnt have experience??
The game designers choosed that he didnt.What experience miranda had?
Could someone please explain me that?She was the leader of a science station of cerberus.
Tali had more then her.She was the leader of a lot of quarians and could be the next admiral.

Yes,and when someone choose garrus,she made a b.i.c.h.t comment about it.(at least he know what he is doing)

#99
diskoh

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tonnactus wrote...
Yes,and when someone choose garrus,she made a b.i.c.h.t comment about it.(at least he know what he is doing)


Sounds like a positive comment to me. You're projecting your preconceptions onto her words.

#100
77boy84

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tonnactus wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...


Hey, man she said experience! Other than garrus and miranda no one has experience leading a team,


What???
Zaeed as a former merc leader doesnt have experience??
The game designers choosed that he didnt.What experience miranda had?
Could someone please explain me that?She was the leader of a science station of cerberus.
Tali had more then her.She was the leader of a lot of quarians and could be the next admiral.

Yes,and when someone choose garrus,she made a b.i.c.h.t comment about it.(at least he know what he is doing)


Project Lazarus isn't the only thing she did.
Before that she lead tons of cerberus operations.

Also, Zaeed may have formed the blue suns, but if you listen to his stories, he doesn't really give a **** about the people following him. He has a neat habit of his whole team dying and him making it out alive.