119 réponses à ce sujet

[jojon2se]

Samara works alone - no more to it. She'd just jump at the enemies, for great justice and expect everyone else to fend for themselves too.

Zaeed cares for himself and doesn't care how many men he loses.

I too have doubts about Miranda's leadership, 'though -- she likes it too much and treat people like peons. The way I see it, she'd have a mutiny on her hands in no time, only delayed by the fact that her mandate comes from someone the team does respect.

EDIT: Fixed a single one of the many typos.

Modifié par jojon2se, 27 février 2010 - 06:29 .

[Gill Kaiser]

Miranda's class skill is "Cerberus Leader" or "Cerberus Tactician". Her entire class is geared around making a team more effective.

[jklinders]

Another thread about the mechanics of the suicide mission with a twist.

Seeing as even the most competent and experienced soldier can get his head blown off simply by raising it at the wrong time, it's not terribly surprising Bioware decided to impose some order on the chaos. The alternative would be to wait an extra year while they got the math figured out. Frankly the most realistic outcome is to take losses regardless of charcter ability. That would outrage people too, so what are they to do? 

Whatever else we would like to think, all of these characters Shepard included are property of Bioware and have what abilities Bioware wants them to have. Miranda and Garrus are billed as leaders. I never really saw Jacob as one(between that boy scout salute of his and his subservience to Miranda he seemed a poor choice to me) but whatever.

Miranda's comment about Garrus was not so much ****y as it was I don't know sulky. She wanted the responsibility, but saying "at least he knows what he is doing" is NOT a knock on Garrus' skills.

saying that any biotic could do the barrier was true. Again this is about options, maybe Shepard thinks it is worth the risk to use a lesser biotic to hold the barrier leaving the stronger biotics to do what they do best, toss drones around like rag dolls.

They don't have the benefit of hindsight in this mission and actually likely they don't think escaping is an option. people sometimes screw up. When you are used to leading, you are accustomed to making judgements. Standing idly by with no comment is what followers do.

[keegdarv1]

I find the "team doesnt respect" really untrue, i mean who doesnt respect her? Jack maybe but come on in that case im not worry about it<shurgs> Garrus speaks up if Jacks dead in the last mission but I see it if the player trust Miranda to lead Garrus would fall in line in a heart beat as Garrus sees Shepard as the person that made him and would never ever question him. Tali nope to move trust in Shepard same as Garrus. Thane Sarma Jacob or Mordin ummm nope they dont care, Sarmas says she respect Miranda, Jacob and her are friends, Thanes along for the ride as a "arm of Shepard" and Mordin just doing his Mordin smart thing, Zaeed doesnt matter to him as long as he gets money. Im pretty sure each member of the team respect each other enough or respect Shepard enough other wise the mission was a fail before it started

[tonnactus]

diskoh wrote...

tonnactus wrote...
Yes,and when someone choose garrus,she made a b.i.c.h.t comment about it.(at least he know what he is doing)

Sounds like a positive comment to me. You're projecting your preconceptions onto her words.

It sounds really negative in the german translation."At least" is negative.
She said:At least he know what he is doing".
Not he would be doing his job good.

Modifié par tonnactus, 27 février 2010 - 06:56 .

[jklinders]

One other thing about the suicide mission. I think disloyal characters should increase the odds of OTHER characters dying rather than just themselves. A disloyal character would be out for number one first and really not care if the others lived. Just seems to make sense to me and was the biggest easily avoided mistake Bioware made IMHO

[jojon2se]

What keeg meant is that Miri diminished Garrus, not at all because she didn't think he'd do a good job, but because she went all 5 years old: "Aaaw I want to lead!" *stamp foot*, heh.

[tonnactus]

Gill Kaiser wrote...

Miranda's class skill is "Cerberus Leader" or "Cerberus Tactician". Her entire class is geared around making a team more effective.

But her actual results werent good.She loosed the entire space station because she never found out that wilson betrayed cerberus until it was too late.Or this was planned by the illusive man and her and wilson was just a pawn sacrifice.That would explain why she shot him immidiatly.

[jklinders]

tonnactus wrote...

diskoh wrote...

tonnactus wrote...
Yes,and when someone choose garrus,she made a b.i.c.h.t comment about it.(at least he know what he is doing)

Sounds like a positive comment to me. You're projecting your preconceptions onto her words.

It sounds really negative in the german translation."At least" is negative.
She said:At least he know what he is doing".
Not he would be doing his job good.

Could be a problem with the localization. In english it could be interpreted as "well better than nothing" negative kind of way or "I would rather it was this but he'll still do a good job"

English is kind of messed up and very context based.

[dreman9999]

1. I read you picked Thane as fire team leader......From that choice alown you have no right to complain.
Also, Garrus was not at fault for his team being kill. He was their for 2 years and was able to sevive the worst of the worst as the attacker. His teamed die because he was betrade by a team member, something he could not control.
You could of picked Miranda as Fire team leader and everyone was fine.
2. As for thebiotic specialist, she only told you that you had more options. You could of picked Samara or  loyal Jack to do it. She never even suggested to pick someone else.

I don't see why you hate someone else for your choice.

[dreman9999]

jimmyjoefro wrote...

Miranda isn't a person, she's a genetically modified clone.

.....Of a man.

[dreman9999]

tonnactus wrote...

Gill Kaiser wrote...

Miranda's class skill is "Cerberus Leader" or "Cerberus Tactician". Her entire class is geared around making a team more effective.

But her actual results werent good.She loosed the entire space station because she never found out that wilson betrayed cerberus until it was too late.Or this was planned by the illusive man and her and wilson was just a pawn sacrifice.That would explain why she shot him immidiatly.

But the Illusive Man hired him. Also, she can't see everthing.

[OverlordNexas]

dreman9999 wrote...

jimmyjoefro wrote...

Miranda isn't a person, she's a genetically modified clone.

.....Of a man.

Implications... unpleasant.

[dreman9999]

jklinders wrote...

One other thing about the suicide mission. I think disloyal characters should increase the odds of OTHER characters dying rather than just themselves. A disloyal character would be out for number one first and really not care if the others lived. Just seems to make sense to me and was the biggest easily avoided mistake Bioware made IMHO

But an unloyal charater does effect the chances of sevival of characters,too. Have an unloyal Samara, or Jack as biotic speicalist garruntees someone dieing. I t also come to affect in the final battle.

[Druss99]

jklinders wrote...

One other thing about the suicide mission. I think disloyal characters should increase the odds of OTHER characters dying rather than just themselves. A disloyal character would be out for number one first and really not care if the others lived. Just seems to make sense to me and was the biggest easily avoided mistake Bioware made IMHO

Thats exactly the way I thought it would be on my first play through. I got everyones loyalty because I didnt want to take the risk of a disloyal squad member turning on my own team or sacrificing someone to save themselves. Loyalty would have made alot more sense like this. Should have been called competency I suppose .

[dreman9999]

IoCaster wrote...

Jeremy Winston wrote...

1) She didn't believe he would.  She trusts him.  She's high up in his organization.  I don't find that to be incompetent.  On top of that. TIM wasn't trying to get them killed.  It's not quite a betrayal.

There's plenty of evidence throughout the game that Cerberus is guilty of a slew of dirty deeds. Jacob admits as much almost in your first conversation. Blind trust and denial reflects poorly on her judgment. Bad judgment in a supposed leader is an indicator of incompetence for the role.
 
Oh Come on. She's a person who beleives in results over means. She just pro human. And buy the end of the game she does quit Cerberus.

2) She was wrong about Niket.  She let he emotions cloud her judgement.  This is incompetent how?  Everyone makes mistakes, including Shepard.

How many times did she overhear the radio transmissions that were quite clear about the situation with Nikets betrayal. You even get a dialogue choice that flatly states that he betrayed her. Blind trust and denial reflects poorly on her judgment. Bad judgment in a supposed leader is an indicator of incompetence for the role.

So your telling me that she should not trust her only friend in the world. I would be shocked if my best friend baraied me too. She did lether emotions get in the way. She many be engineered to be perfect, she's still human.

3) A huge segement of the playerbase believed Samara would make a good team leader.  Besides, as we've discussed, her whole dialog in the suicide mission was designed to mislead you and does not reflect on her character.

Rationalize it however you want to, it was a clear attempt by the writers to convey a suspect judgment on her part. I simply take them at their word and agree. I'm stating that they did that throughout the course of the game. They kept it up and constantly reinforced the idea that she's incompetent even at the very end of the game.

She's almost 1000 yours old. In never picked her myself as leader and I was surpirsed that she was not a good leader. She's almost  a matriarch who is seen as a leader in Asari cultur. I would expect she would be able to lead.

4) She was correct.  ANY biotic could.  They just don't all have the necessary endurance.  Why did she say anything at all when the best choice was right in front of you?  Again, suicide mission dialog.

Why even bother at that point unless it was an intentional attempt by the writers to convince the player that Miranda is ill suited to the role of competent leadership? 

She just say that you have more options, not once did she say was ageints you picking Samara. 

5) "We knew it was a one-way trip" is the pragmatic viewpoint to keep everyone focused on the mission.  Don't bother worrying about the ship.  If we survive and the ship if repairable, great, but the job is to kill the collectors.

Not very inspiring leadership qualities. The boots haven't even hit the ground yet and the real leader conveys a sense of optimism and can do spirit. It's kind of a "we're not done yet" bravado and something that even a born cynic like Joker appreciates.

She's a cold woman. What would expect her to say? She did leave everyone behind on the station that you woke up on.

6) How is this viewpoint incompetent?  Jacob wants to simply destroy it.  You find that a better solution?

You left out the obvious correct choice here, which is to activate and interrogate. That whole introductory segment with Legion was intentionally provocative. It was quite startling to me to hear "Shepard-Commander", while it was picking off those Husks. Again, it was the writers making a conscious decision to have her react the way she did. It's not my fault that they made her appear to not consider the value of any information that could be gleaned from questioning the salvaged Geth. I'm at the point where I believe that her primary function in the game was to act as a foil or sounding board to the player. As a consequence of that they gave her the appearance of being an incompetent boob.

The could attack the ship and take it over. The best option was to destory it or givr it away to control it. I only intarigated it up of Curiosity. Nearther one of the options were bad.

AN XO's job is to keep you abreast of options.  Once she voices her concerns or suggestions, she doesn't continue to argue the point, unless you're in the briefing room where the entire object is to have open discourse.

I'll absolutely disagree with your assertion here. An XO's job is whatever the Captain designates it to be, full stop.

No, the XO job is to give you options and make sure that what you say goes from those option. She did all that.

That's the question that I'm pondering. What exactly were the writers attempting to accomplish with her character? If the intent was to make me as the player accept her as a competent second to my Shepard, then in may case they failed miserably. She's dead, Jim.

I personally would not have any other seacond other than her. She did her job, she brave and compatant. So what at times you butt heads. Her job is to give you options and her opinion and help you make a dission, which she did. And not once did she disobey an order.

Modifié par dreman9999, 27 février 2010 - 07:36 .

[Jeremy Winston]

IoCaster wrote...
I like writing "She's dead, Jim". It warms the ****les of my cold, cold heart. :happy:

By the way... I wanted to apologize for that crack I made at the end.  We were having a spirited disagreement, I went and did something to make it personal, which was stupid.

I appreciate that you handled it better than I did.

[jklinders]

dreman9999 wrote...

jklinders wrote...

One other thing about the suicide mission. I think disloyal characters should increase the odds of OTHER characters dying rather than just themselves. A disloyal character would be out for number one first and really not care if the others lived. Just seems to make sense to me and was the biggest easily avoided mistake Bioware made IMHO

But an unloyal charater does effect the chances of sevival of characters,too. Have an unloyal Samara, or Jack as biotic speicalist garruntees someone dieing. I t also come to affect in the final battle.

Yes, but it does not seem to do anything of the sort during 'hold the line' > Presumably Shepard(and by extension the player) would not knowingly put a character who was not completely committed into a leadership or specialist position. If you don't the only at risk people ar ethe disloyal ones.

if I am not fully committed to the team and the survival of others then when holding the line I am going to be supporting others less and keeping my head down more.

[Pauravi]

Hahahaha, sounds more like you're just a horrible leader.