95 réponses à ce sujet

[Djehutynakht]

In ME1, there was an element of choice where the crew was concerned.  You could avoid certain crew members -- all of them but Tali, I think.  This would only be an issue for a xenophobic Shepard, but it was still possible.

Now, in ME2, when there are very strong reasons for Shepard to refuse certain potential squadmates, that choice has been taken away from us.  Why?  As a Paragon, my Shepard is not at all happy about being forced -- by a terrorist organization no less! -- to take on vicious, dangerous, evil people.

The problem is that BioWare wrote true Paragons into a corner.  Most of the squad is acceptable, and most of those for whom there might be issues of conscience can be rationalized.  Grunt is violent as hell, but he's not evil; he's a child who needs direction.  Thane gave me some concern, but upon meeting him I could tell he wasn't evil.  Morinth is obviously out, and the only one for whom there was any choice.  I was willing to talk to Legion before deciding whether or not it needed to be destroyed, so I had no problem taking it on board.  But then there are the two big problems....

First, Zaeed.  I had no choice but to take into my crew this vicious, horrible, murderous mercenary hired by Cerberus.  I couldn't void his contract even after watching him beat and murder a helpless victim.  I couldn't even choose to STOP the beating or murder.  That bothers me greatly.  Talking to Zaeed in his part of the cargo hold only makes it worse.  He enjoys killing innocents.  I keep spacing compressed garbage while he talks, wishing I could space HIM.

And then there's Jack.  BioWare, what the hell were you thinking?  Jack was so easy to make palatable to Paragons!  Why couldn't you have directed her rage slightly?  With all that hatred toward Cerberus, all you had to do to make her acceptable (with reservations) to a Paragon was say that her murderous rage and violence was aimed at Cerberus targets.  So why make her evil?

Before the Jack fans eviscerate me, I'd like to make it clear that I'm not objecting to her appearance, her abrasive character, her swearing, her messed-up psyche, or her violent rages.  I'm objecting to the fact that she is truly EVIL.  She enjoys murdering innocents.  She's happy about, for instance, capturing passenger liners and slaughtering everyone aboard, and considers the time she kidnapped some of the passengers instead of killing them one of her few mistakes.  She doesn't kill only those who threaten her or try to harm her, she kills anyone and everyone, because she can, and because she enjoys it.  How many victims has Jack murdered, BioWare?  Hundreds?  Thousands?  And yet a Paragon Shepard has NO CHOICE but to take this vicious pyschopath on as a member of the Normandy's crew!

What's really insulting is that you can try to heal her, as if a tortured past justifies or excuses the slaughter of innocents, and she now deserves to be treated as if she's still the frightened little girl in that Cerberus cell.

With all these vaunted Paragon and Renegade interrupts, and the claims that our choices change the galaxy, why couldn't we be given any choice where our squad was concerned?  "I decide who's on my team!" Shepard growled at TIM.  Yeah, right, sure you do.  TIM hands out the dossiers, and you dance to his tune.  Shepard has no choices that matter.

As a Paragon, I would have shot Zaeed to protect that batarian.  I would never have gone to collect Jack.  Had I visited Purgatory anyway, after the kidnapping attempt I certainly would not have released all the prisoners.  And, on a related but somewhat tangential subject, I would have knocked Liara out and dragged her back to the Normandy rather than allow her to become a murderer.

I am not at all happy to have the most important choices taken out of my hands, especially not considering that choice is supposed to be the core of the Mass Effect games.  I'd rather like an explanation (though I don't actually expect  to hear one).

[GenericPlayer2]

I agree entirely. I have no idea why I could choose to not have Grunt and/or Legion but Jack was forced on me. Its the one thing that made me feel bitter about the game.



She was trying really hard to not come with me, and I didn't have an option to say "fine stay on this station, we're leaving".

[Biotic_Warlock]

if you dont like them, try to kill them off on the suicide... that eliminates the ME3 problem...

[SnakieHelah]

Same here on the Jack thought, i would have never even gotten to recruit her, all the time she was nothing but risk, first the purgatory then the "bomb planting". She may not be not be evil on purpoise but she definantly is dumb as hell. I never ever used her on any of my playthroughs and she seemed completely dull as a character, useless as a squad member for combat.

[Kaosu Haze]

First off, I played Paragon and was fine with both of them, necessity requires you take help where you get, ie. Jack.



Secondly the Batarian wasn't innocent, and Zaeed shot him in the leg to stop him getting away as far as I could tell. Even then, Zaeed is completely optional, feel free not to get him.

[MrRattenburg]

First of all, you don't have to take Zaeed, just don't talk to him or don't download him. And he didn't murder the batarian, he just shot him in the leg, and you don't know anything about the batarian, you don't know how "innocent" he was.

Modifié par MrRattenburg, 27 février 2010 - 02:23 .

[RiverRat]

My Shepard wasn't exactly comfortable with ol' fish lips Thane either. Whether or not you agree he was an assassin for the right or wrong reasons.

I agree with you about Jack, and Zaeed as well. The only crew members who are truly optional are Grunt and Legion, for obvious reasons. However, I'm told you can end up leaving Zaeed trapped at the burning refinery... but that doesn't sound very paragon either.

As for Liara... yeah I would've knocked her out and dragged her back to the Normandy as well... but for completely different reasons. Muahahahaa, "Shepard to Yeoman Chambers, get the "fish" in my quarters ready please. I'm bringing back a "package."

EDIT: I thought Zaeed's recruitment dialog was triggered by proximity?

Modifié par RiverRat, 27 février 2010 - 02:24 .

[GenericPlayer2]

Biotic_Warlock wrote...

if you dont like them, try to kill them off on the suicide... that eliminates the ME3 problem...

We already do that, but the option not to recruit should not have been there. I don't want to have to make her 2nd fire team leader or take her with me to the final fight just so I can get her killed. 

To the OP: To be honest I don't see this as a Paragon/Renegade issue. Both play styles would be concerned with her constant flouting of authority.

I still do not understand, in the least, why Shepard is wasting his/her time negotiating with someone to be allowed to save her life.

[superimposed]

Jack is violent and destructive because it's all she's ever known, from the earliest of her memories, from the moment of her escape, plus the psychological ****up of using her in experiments.. Zaeed is just an ****.

[Raltar]

You can avoid Zaeed by not talking to him on Omega, so he isn't forced.

[DarthCaine]

You're not paragon, you're paragon stupid. You're letting your personal feelings get in the way of the mission. By not recruiting someone everyone's chances of survival in the suicide mission go down

You recruit them for their skills, not because you like/dislike them. You need the best people to do the suicide mission. You'd sacrifice the lives of billions just because you don't like them or just because they might kill a few people afterward? Thank god Shepard's not as stupid or as naive

Besides, why would you want to miss out on the game's content? (thus making the game shorter)
Even if I didn't like someone I'd still recruit them

BTW, you can avoid Zaeed and never recruit him

Modifié par DarthCaine, 27 février 2010 - 02:33 .

[GenericPlayer2]

RiverRat wrote...

My Shepard wasn't exactly comfortable with ol' fish lips Thane either. Whether or not you agree he was an assassin for the right or wrong reasons.

Thane is  different because he is post Horizon, and I don't believe I have to recruit him for the story to proceed.

Modifié par GenericPlayer2, 27 février 2010 - 02:31 .

[GenericPlayer2]

DarthCaine wrote...

You're not paragon, you're paragon stupid. You're letting your personal feelings get in the way of the mission.

You recruit them for their skills, not because you like/dislike them. You need the best people to do the suicide mission. You'd sacrifice the lives of billions just 'cos you don't like them or because they might kill a few people afterward? Thank god Shepard's not as stupid or naive

The mission can succeed with no casualties without Jack. In fact, try to get Jack killed takes more effort. Jack is a team liability, not a team addition.

Modifié par GenericPlayer2, 27 février 2010 - 02:33 .

[Djehutynakht]

Kaosu Haze, necessity requires no such thing (unless you're a Machiavellian thinker, which isn't terribly Paragonish). Shepard was able to say that necessity does not justify taking the Collector base, and that would have been a hell of a lot more useful than one psychotic biotic. Also, taking help where you can find it should have limits. Jack is worse than all the famous serial killers from real human history put together. If you gave her a puppy she'd strangle it and laugh.

Kaosu and MrRattenburg, Zaeed is NOT optional unless you already know who and what he is. You can't know he's an evil so-and-so before you talk to him, and once you talk to him you're stuck with him, as well as being tainted by doing nothing to stop him from brutalizing a helpless victim. Regarding that batarian, all we know is that someone paid Zaeed to capture him -- we know nothing to suggest he committed any crimes. And Zaeed says he has to turn him in before he starts to stink, which suggests that he groaned and collapsed into a motionless heap after being shot because he was dead. In any case, even if he were a murderer, a Paragon would insist upon the proper treatment of a prisoner.

They both could have been made iffy but acceptable with so little effort that it boggles my mind that they were made so thoroughly irredeemable.

RiverRat, I agree, I had qualms about Thane. Ideally we should have been allowed to choose there, as well. But I was able to rationalize that one, since supposedly he didn't kill good guys.

DarthCaine, it isn't stupid to be asked to recruit a psychotic mass murderer and think, gee, is this really savior-of-the-galaxy material?  Further, she never proved necessary.  She's a less powerful biotic than Samara, probably on par with Miranda.  All she can do is Shockwave.  So she's what, a quarter of an Adept, or the least useful third of a Vanguard?  That really isn't enough to overlook that little issue of the slaughter of the innocents.

Folks, remember I'm talking about a Paragon Shepard here -- pure Paragon, no Renegade at all.  All of the rationalizations for taking Jack and Zaeed on have been Renegade in nature.  The ends do NOT justify the means, EVER, to a Paragon.

Modifié par Djehutynakht, 27 février 2010 - 02:39 .

[GenericPlayer2]

Zaeed doesn't say that he doesn't want to come with you and starts making demands when he is in no position to do so. Jack clearly does not want to come along, and Shep has no dialog option to say "Fine, stay here".

[smudboy]

@Djehutynakht



Jack is not a psychopath.

[Djehutynakht]

Smudboy -- no?  How not?

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Psychopathy

A trained psychologist would probably take issue with parts of that article, but it's a good enough starting point.

Modifié par Djehutynakht, 27 février 2010 - 02:44 .

[aaniadyen]

If I was Shepard would I really free someone rightfully imprisoned anyway? Come on, you wouldn't be able to trust them for ****, much less expect them to have your back on the end mission. If it was up to me I'd never even land on the prison ship.

[Jzadek72]

Jack is incredibly powerful, and not evil, just disturbed

[RiverRat]

Aye, supposedly Thane never killed any good guys. But when you listen to his Drell rationalization, an assassin is just a tool or weapon, you can't really be sure. But, you're right.. Personally I'd like to have intervened and prevented Nassana's assassination.. and given, between Jack and Thane... Thane has to be the lesser evil.

[aaniadyen]

Jzadek72 wrote...

Jack is incredibly powerful, and not evil, just disturbed

*shrugs* That's metagaming. For all you know at the time she could be. Same with Thane and Zaeed.

If I had a choice I wouldn't pick up any of them, which is odd because I turned out to really like Thane. Wouldn't be able to do it though due to RP.

Modifié par aaniadyen, 27 février 2010 - 02:45 .

[DarthCaine]

BTW, I forgot to add that you can kill off Zaeed in his loyalty mission

Modifié par DarthCaine, 27 février 2010 - 02:54 .

[DarthCaine]

double post, stupid forum

Modifié par DarthCaine, 27 février 2010 - 02:54 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

To all the people that cough up the "you don't have to recruit them" excuse... You don't know how these people will turn out the first time you play the game. So maybe that suggestion wasn't that smart after all?

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 27 février 2010 - 02:55 .

[BinaryHelix101]

You wouldn't survive the suicide mission without these guys so of course you have to take them. That's what the f-ing game is about! You hire a crew of the most dangerous, but also the most capable people in the galaxy. If you go hiring some goody two shoes Kaidan Alenko types, you're not gonna survive the mission because they don't have the killer instinct Jack and Zaaed have. Are you seriously saying you'd rather the galaxy gets destroyed than take Jack and Zaaed with to help you defeat the threat? So called "true" paragons would never be able to save the galaxy. I played paragon, but I would choose renegade options whenever it seemed like the reasonable thing to do. Like if you had a mass murderer cornered and disarmed, a "true" paragon wouldn't kill the murderer, becuase he/she's a "helpless victim".