Speculation regarding Jack's mental health aside, everything you learn about her (both from her and third-party sources regarding her history) indicates that, when it comes down to it, she does what it takes to survive and get the job done.[/quote]
But she also commits murders by the hundred for fun.
[quote]Also, given the dramatic change of heart she has once she comes aboard the Normandy (if you say the right things to her), it seems that her disposition was more a product of her past environments than something inherent to her.[/quote]
Becoming slightly less ****y (and, if you're playing a male Shepard and romance her, crying before sex) somehow excuses hundreds, possibly thousands, of murders?
[quote]When it comes down to it, Thane and Samara are murderers too - they just have more eloquent rationalizations for the various people they kill (Samara's "code" and Thane's 'my body is just a weapon' spiel). To me, it looks like Jack's only flaw in this regard is that she doesn't bother with flimsy excuses and actually accepts her own agency regarding the things she did. I think I actually respect her more for that. [/quote]
I did say that I have qualms about Thane. Samara, too (can't recall whether I said that about her or not). But there's a huge difference. Samara is a law enforcement officer, albeit one with a very strict code who metes out only one form of justice. But she operates with the authority of the asari government. I (speaking as my Paragon Shepard) don't fully understand her code, so I am not prepared to judge it and discard it, especially since she is a law enforcement officer. I don't get to cast aside the law just because I'm not sure I like it. I definitely do not agree with her treatment of the Eclipse mercenary, but given that this was someone who had to murder an innocent person in order to join her gang, I can (with difficulty) accept it as a legal execution. While Samara's code could have brought her into conflict with the asari police officer, this was a matter of two spheres of jurisdiction colliding, and I was confident that I could resolve the situation to the satisfaction of all. Which I did.
Regarding Thane, that's trickier. I didn't say I bought his reasoning or approved of his actions. But he was acting in accordance with the dictates of the government to which he owed his allegiance. Do I have the right to judge the manner in which the hanar handle their black ops when I don't have all the information? Thane and Samara seem honorable. I can observe them and judge them by their words and deeds.
Jack, on the other hand, brags about acts of mass murder, and enjoys killing. Rather different from Thane and Samara.
[quote]Oawa wrote...
I'm not quite sure I understand where this "murders for fun" concept of Jack comes from.[/quote]
She brags about the number of people she has killed, including attacking passenger liners and killing everyone aboard (that being the reason I've been harping on the cruise ship massacre analogy). She admits to enjoying killing. She says that everyone wants something, so it's OK to kill anyone. She's very specific about all of this.
[quote]Kaosu Haze wrote...
Now you're changing the context.
Recruiting Jack: You need a team of specialists to destroy the Collector Base. According to the dossiers that TIM provides, Jack is an incredibly powerful biotic, always useful to have. Unfortunately she's dangerous and unstable. Well ****, she's all we've got.[/quote]
No, she isn't all we've got. Shepard, as an Adept or a Vanguard, is a much more powerful biotic. Samara is more powerful. Miranda is about as powerful. Jack is barely more useful than Jacob, and all he can do is use Pull. All Jack has is Shockwave. Even if she has the most powerful Shockwave anyone has ever seen, it doesn't make her the lone hope for defeating the Collectors.
[quote]Keeping the base: Oh hey Shep it's me TIM, you know that base you've been trying to destroy and have probably lost people doing so? Give it to me instead and I may be able to get something to help us against the Reapers, and then Cerberus(Quote: Cerberus IS Humanity) can dominate the galaxy.[/quote]
Not quite. There was an untold amount of Reaper technology on that base -- including the technology to BUILD REAPERS, which is what TIM wanted. Yes, it comes at a horrifying price. But TIM exemplifies the Machiavellian ideal (or, rather, that against which Machiavelli warned). Using the technology on the Collector base would give us a much, MUCH better chance of defeating the Reapers. But the ends do not justify the means. It isn't worth preserving humankind at the cost of our humanity. Better to die with honor than to become monsters.
[quote]Jack is NOT worse than famous serial killers. You simply hate the character and seem to be trying to press your opinion as fact.[/quote]
No, I do not hate the character. Also, as written, it is a fact that Jack is worse than any real serial killer, by the only reasonable measurement: number of people murdered.
[quote]As for your whole 'she's a psychopath' argument. No, no she isn't. She's disturbed. Psychopaths tend to exibit a complete lack of empathy or emotion. I challenge you to prove to anyone Jack lacks emotion, mostly rage, paragon romance shows sorrow, as well as happiness to an extent. Additionally during her loyalty she displays genuine concern/panic at hearing that the Cerberus cell may have set up elsewhere.
And to conclude; Psychopaths are born with their issues, it's hereditary. Jack if anything leans more towards being a sociopath - her problems are a result of what she went through as a child. Hell, she was conditioned with narcotics to enjoy fighting.[/quote]
A reasonable point, except that psychopaths can feel emotions -- just not about others. Every emotion Jack displays is self-referential. She is sorry for herself, she fears what may happen to her, she is angry about what people did to her, she shows sorrow in the Paragon romance because of what she needs ("Maybe I need..."). It is ONLY about Jack. She's a disaffected narcissistic paranoid psychopath. In short: a dangerous nutter.
[quote]Oh and lol at the 'If you gave her a puppy she'd strangle it and laugh.", you're just showing that all this is is your personal hatred of the character.[/quote]
Again, I don't hate the character. I just wouldn't want her on my team.
[quote]If anything I'd agree with The Angry One's assesment of Jack however, either way she is a liability. I just happen to disagree with what you think, and although you're entitled to your opinion, you should stop stating it as a fact.[/quote]
So far, you're the only person who has accused me of this. I thought I made it fairly clear that I was stating an opinion. The only thing I've stated as fact is the fact that, as written, she has killed more people than any real serial killer. Otherwise, I have stated and defended my opinion in a rather interesting discussion of a fictional character. How is that trying to turn opinion into fact?
[quote]Booglarize wrote...
As for Jack, I'm not entirely sure what the tally of her victims really is in terms of how many were people who had actually screwed with her, and how many were innocents she killed for the heck of it. In terms of numbers of innocents killed, though, I doubt very highly that she'd have either Thane or Samara beat.[/quote]
Jack has attacked more than one passenger liner, killing everyone (or almost everyone in at least one case) aboard. She has destroyed a space station. Either of those would have to involve at least one hundred people, as a very conservative estimate. Oh, and she also killed everyone in a cult (including the other victims of the cult leader). Somehow I doubt Thane and Samara have matched those tallies.
[quote]GenericPlayer2 wrote...
This is more than a numbers game. If I went by 'need to recruit people for mission' Shep would have offered Verner a spot on the Normandy.[/quote]
O_O
You have incapacitated me with horror.
"Come on, Conrad. Why don't you join me on the Normandy. We could use a guy like you."
It's like watching Cthulhu rise from the depths. Once imagined, it never leaves your mind.
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