213 réponses à ce sujet

[Djehutynakht]

Charge is incredibly useful, obviously, so it is excused from this thread.

I'm slowly working through a Vanguard playthrough on hardcore difficulty.  Everything I meet seems to have armor or shields, or both.  Pull and Shockwave thus are useless until I get rid of shields and armor.  Now, Pull is occasionally moderately useful on a single de-armored enemy, but an extra bullet would usually handle the job just as well.  But is it ever anything better than a slightly more amusing way to kill a distant enemy than a headshot with the hand cannon?

And what about Shockwave?  I'd have to shoot each enemy in a group once or more to get rid of their armor, without bothering to kill them, to get much use from Shockwave.  I tried that once with some husks.  Obviously, I died.  Is Shockwave ever worth the bother?

As it stands, mostly I just charge madly around the battlefield and shoot things.  I've spent points on my other powers, and I wouldn't mind using them.  Any advice?

[thisisme8]

Pull, yes. At least 1 point. Shockwave.... eh...

[entekk]

I agree. Gotta admit that im not through the entire game with a vanguard yet. I'm with GSB or barrier aswell. . Its that OH S#IT!-button when against Harbinger and some drones where you stand in the middle of them and theres no one you can escape-charge through. Might depend on your playstyle if youre often in those kind of situations but when you are, youre happy to trgger that button and get instant full shield. So yeah, basically im against maxing out either shockwave or pull and putting a few points in those skills.

[mundus66]

The only times where the shockwave is useful imo is vs husks (when combined with inferno blast) especially on the collector ship in the end and the derelict reaper. It is also useful on the bridge on Thanes recruit mission, this time, when combined with overload. Two points is enough though, for pull.

Modifié par mundus66, 27 février 2010 - 03:33 .

[Djehutynakht]

Regarding the husks, how do you make Shockwave work against them when they're all armored?

[SpockLives]

Shockwave staggers armored opponents. If you're on PC, just hit the Shockwave hotkey. Don't even bother targeting any enemies. (Don't know if that works on Xbox.) True, staggering isn't as effective as knockdown, but it's better than getting surrounded. I used Shockwave extensively on the "save the quarian from the varren" and "husk rush" missions. Strip their armor with the SMG with Inferno rounds before using Shockwave to improve its effectiveness, of course. Either way, I recommend people don't discount Shockwave on Hardcore.

[sinosleep]

Djehutynakht wrote...

Regarding the husks, how do you make Shockwave work against them when they're all armored?

It only takes 2 shots from the carnifex even at level 30 to strip them of defenses and leave them vulnerable to shock or pull. If you skip to 4:30 in the 2nd part of the suicide run vid in my signature you'll see how easy pull/shockwave makes husk killing. Personally, I prefer area pull as you'll see there are a couple of times where I gather up several husks at a time that I would have otherwise had to deal with without it. The ridiculously quick cool down is a huge help. 

[Spyndel]

Shockwave is only worth taking, because you have to to get Pull, which is definitely useful. Even a single point in Pull is very useful for a Vanguard though, because its potent when Biotics are upgraded, and recharges so fast, you can cast it quickly in succession, without tying up your charge ability.

Being pulled is often a death sentence on its own from either the environment , or teammate fire, and pulled opponents can be turned into floating bombs if you have a teammate with Warp, so its good for taking opponents out of play quickly, either  to thin the field or save your butt in a pinch.


Beyond that, Shockwave is almost entirely worthless.

Modifié par Spyndel, 27 février 2010 - 04:58 .

[Gravbh]

I use both pull and shockwave frequently on insanity. I imagine that I play vanguard differently than most people though. I don't focus so much on the charge-shotty aspect of the class. I picked assault rifles and always carry the vindicator/eviscerator. I like to play it more as a soldier with limited biotics/no sniper rifle than the 100% charge gameplay. The charge-shotgun is still very satisfying and has the potential to clear a room faster than any other class, but it's not necessarily my main tactic.



My playstyle isn't optimal for killing speed/efficiency I'm sure, but I have a lot of fun with it and I can still clear insanity doing so.

[thisisme8]

Gravbh wrote...

I use both pull and shockwave frequently on insanity. I imagine that I play vanguard differently than most people though. I don't focus so much on the charge-shotty aspect of the class. I picked assault rifles and always carry the vindicator/eviscerator. I like to play it more as a soldier with limited biotics/no sniper rifle than the 100% charge gameplay. The charge-shotgun is still very satisfying and has the potential to clear a room faster than any other class, but it's not necessarily my main tactic.

My playstyle isn't optimal for killing speed/efficiency I'm sure, but I have a lot of fun with it and I can still clear insanity doing so.

If it keeps you coming back, that's all that matters.  The 'best' way doesn't necessarily mean 'funnest' way to some people.  I think I die more often than anybody, but it's because for me, no matter the class, I like to try and discover bold ways of routing, dividing, or surrounding the enemy rather than just poking my head out and shooting.

Then again, when I play Vanguards I usually just stick to Charging because it gets my blood pumping.

[Kurt M.]

I never use Pull (it's actually the only biotic ability my Vanguard never uses), but I use Shockwave lots of times (I just love it). It's extremely useful to use it on bunkered enemies to send them flying away while getting a lot of damage, and letting your squadmates to finish them off. And in some places (like the brigde in Thane's recruitment mission), is totally lethal. Snipe/shoot off your enemies' armor/barrier, then send them a shockwave and see how they fall off the building. I've ever managed to throw off 2 of them with a single one.

But for husks, Slam is a hundred times more useful (and has a lower recharging time)...just strip a husk off their weak armor with a few shots (usually 1 shot if you're using shotgun), then "Slam' it and forget", then choose your next victim. Simple

Modifié par Gladiador2, 27 février 2010 - 06:26 .

[Kronner]

Pull is fine, Shockwave sucks. Neither is better than Squad Cryo Ammo imho.

[VirtualAlex]

Pull is super useful. It's excellent for times when you don't want to charge, and when people are in cover and wont let you charge them. You can curve a pull and charge them, or just kill them. Also it's super good against those annoying rockets guys on inaccessible terrain. You can pull them and kill them. It also 1-shots husks.

[Kurt M.]

Kronner wrote...

Pull is fine, Shockwave sucks. Neither is better than Squad Cryo Ammo imho.

Then try to Pull an enemy that is behind cover. It WILL fail. Now launch a Shockwave to him, and it won't matter if he's under cover or not....he'll fly away screaming, along with any other enemy that is close to the wave, even in the lvl 4 "powerful, not ranged" version (although if they've armor, it'll "only" damage it). If you can't find an utility for this power.....(sigh).

Pull was good in ME1, where it wasn't "projectile-based", but it's pure crap in ME2: it's slow and completely useless unless the enemy is without armor and exposed. And in that situation I prefer to Slam them...it adds severe damage to incapacitation.

Modifié par Gladiador2, 27 février 2010 - 07:27 .

[Arde5643]

Interesting - shockwave is totally useless for the adept since the adept has singularity,throw,pull.



But shockwave might actually be of use for the vanguard? Interesting.

[sinosleep]

You can curve pull around cover, so actually NO, it WON'T fail. IMO anything shockwave can do pull can do better other than stagger multiple armored foes (pull WILL stagger singular armored foes) which isn't particularly useful to a vanguard any way. Inferno ammo is all the close range CC I need and pull field is on a faster cool down, pull field can set up warp explosions, and the damage component of slam is completely irrelevant (not to mention AOE is always better than single target) when you consider the fact that your squad will absolutely plow through pulled enemies like a hot knife through butter any way and slam won't kill them outright. The CC duration of slam is also irrelevant since pull field has a pretty long duration any way. I really don't see any way shockwave or slam are better than pull unless your reasoning is simply that you want to save the 3 wasted points in shockwave that are required to get pull.

[gauntz]

Depends kind of on who your squadmates is. I usually run with Samara or Jack so even though squadmates have longer cooldown, pull isn't used that often and their ability is more than enough. I never use shockwave myself on insanity, but if I'm in a tight spot I often use Jack's even against shielded/armored foes for the slight damage and stagger.

I think the best Vanguard build for insanity and with Jack/Samara atleast is:

10 Inferno Rounds

10 Squad Cryo Rounds

10 Heavy Charge

10 Champion

10 Area Reave



I don't think that leaves room for anything else, but all these abilities are less situational than shockwave/pull so...

[Grand_Commander13]

Gladiador2 wrote...

Then try to Pull an enemy that is behind cover. It WILL fail. Now launch a Shockwave to him, and it won't matter if he's under cover or not....he'll fly away screaming, along with any other enemy that is close to the wave, even in the lvl 4 "powerful, not ranged" version (although if they've armor, it'll "only" damage it). If you can't find an utility for this power.....(sigh).

Not an Insanity player, are you?

[Kurt M.]

I used Area Reave for a while with my previous (call it "Beta") Vanguard playthought. It's useful, but I still prefer Slam as trained ability. It's just too useful.

sinosleep wrote...

You can curve pull around cover, so actually NO, it WON'T fail. IMO anything shockwave can do pull can do better other than stagger multiple armored foes (pull WILL stagger singular armored foes) which isn't particularly useful to a vanguard any way. Inferno ammo is all the close range CC I need and pull field is on a faster cool down, pull field can set up warp explosions, and the damage component of slam is completely irrelevant (not to mention AOE is always better than single target) when you consider the fact that your squad will absolutely plow through pulled enemies like a hot knife through butter any way and slam won't kill them outright. The CC duration of slam is also irrelevant since pull field has a pretty long duration any way. I really don't see any way shockwave or slam are better than pull unless your reasoning is simply that you want to save the 3 wasted points in shockwave that are required to get pull.

Curve pull? Yeah, tell me how you do it. And it that means finding some opening in enemy's "bunker" and launch it, it's not valid to me. In that situation I can use Slam on them anyway.

Shockwave is unique because it simply ignores enemy cover. You see an enemy that is covered and ocasionally turns up and shoots at you. You launch Pull, but when it arrives the bastard has covered again. Pull misses. That happened to me TONS of times.

Now the same situation with shockwave. You launch it. enemy gets cover. Shockwave ignores cover and send the enemy:  1) flying away,  2) taking damage 3) negates his cover vantage point, leaving him exposed for your squadmates 4) has collateral damage to enemies close to him, EVEN if they're armored/barriered.

Seriously, I simply don't understand why this power is so lowly considered. Well, worse for you anyway ^^

Grand_Commander13 wrote...

Not an Insanity player, are
you?

Nop. Hardcore works for me:)

Modifié par Gladiador2, 27 février 2010 - 07:51 .

[marshalleck]

Gladiador2 wrote...

Kronner wrote...

Pull is fine, Shockwave sucks. Neither is better than Squad Cryo Ammo imho.

Then try to Pull an enemy that is behind cover. It WILL fail. Now launch a Shockwave to him, and it won't matter if he's under cover or not....he'll fly away screaming, along with any other enemy that is close to the wave, even in the lvl 4 "powerful, not ranged" version (although if they've armor, it'll "only" damage it). If you can't find an utility for this power.....(sigh).

Pull was good in ME1, where it wasn't "projectile-based", but it's pure crap in ME2: it's slow and completely useless unless the enemy is without armor and exposed. And in that situation I prefer to Slam them...it adds severe damage to incapacitation.

A couple things;

1) You must be using NPC biotics, the player can angle pull around cover
2) Pull didn't exist in ME1
3) Shockwave doesn't do much against armored/defended opponents on hardcore and insanity

Modifié par marshalleck, 27 février 2010 - 07:52 .

[AntiChri5]

The absurd cooldown on pull makes it a great ability.

[Kurt M.]

marshalleck wrote...

Gladiador2 wrote...

Kronner wrote...

Pull is fine, Shockwave sucks. Neither is better than Squad Cryo Ammo imho.

Then try to Pull an enemy that is behind cover. It WILL fail. Now launch a Shockwave to him, and it won't matter if he's under cover or not....he'll fly away screaming, along with any other enemy that is close to the wave, even in the lvl 4 "powerful, not ranged" version (although if they've armor, it'll "only" damage it). If you can't find an utility for this power.....(sigh).

Pull was good in ME1, where it wasn't "projectile-based", but it's pure crap in ME2: it's slow and completely useless unless the enemy is without armor and exposed. And in that situation I prefer to Slam them...it adds severe damage to incapacitation.

A couple things;

1) You must be using NPC biotics, the player can angle pull around cover
2) Pull didn't exist in ME1
3) Shockwave doesn't do much against armored/defended opponents

1) No. PC Pull. And I still don't know what the "angle-pull" is. Maybe I'll give it a try. I confess I stopped using Pull after a few "Launch it, and misses because the enemy got cover again" situations. Shockwave is much simpler in this matter, as I've already said.
2) Probably. I may have confused it with Throw. My bad
3) Not much, but it does

Modifié par Gladiador2, 27 février 2010 - 07:57 .

[AntiChri5]

When you have someone targeted look above or to the side of them. Use pull. Go home happy.

[marshalleck]

To angle pull, you need to aim your reticle at an enemy so that you can see their armor/health/name plate. Then move the reticle away from your target, but not so far that their nameplate disappears. Shoot pull, and it will arc out toward your reticle, then it will change its trajectory to hit its target. That's how you get it around cover. It can be very useful.

Edit: NPC pull is an instant hit. You can't angle it.

Modifié par marshalleck, 27 février 2010 - 08:00 .

[Kurupt87]

in the case of 4 or more enemies all within the range of a shockwave all without protection then i'm sure its great, super in fact. dunno if thats ever happened to me though, but i dont think so. in the case of 1 without protection and 3 with, then its as useful as pull, just locks out charge for longer. btw its easy to hit someone behind cover with pull, aim it above or to the side of them while he is targeted and fire, done. also sets up warp bomb which is definitely better than shockwave. i prefer having my own pull than using a squaddies because, although it isnt instant, they dont float off in the direction of wherever that squaddie is, which generally isn't where i am, and they also commonly float off behind some cover (from me) so i lose LoS and can't warp 'em. this is all personal preference and from my own experience.