213 réponses à ce sujet

[Varenus Luckmann]

Pull, yes.

Shockwave, no.

[Sabresandiego]

Pull is good, but I find it better on a squadmate then on yourself, especially since you have to invest points in shockwave to get it. I suggest squad cryo ammo and reave instead of pull.

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 01 mars 2010 - 06:10 .

[cxensign]

There are 3 specs that comparable in power: 4 in Inferno Ammo, Heavy Charge, and Champion, plus one of:

4 Squad Cryo Ammo, 1 Shockwave, 4 Area Reave;
4 Squad Cryo Ammo, 2 Shockwave, 1 Pull, 3 Reave/Barrier;
2 Shockwave, 4 Pull Field, 3 Reave/Barrier

If you wanted to really min/max, you'd probably be switching between these specs for different missions and squad compositions.  If you don't want to think about which is better and why, just dismiss the differences as personal preference; it is a single player PvE game, after all, so it's not like anyone can call you on it.  Otherwise, look your squad, the threats in the mission (or missions) you're about to do, and make the best decision you can for your skill set.

[Arde5643]

I've been trying out my adept AR build with max shockwave build on hardcore, and I must say, I'm very impressed with shockwave's effectiveness.

It seems shockwave works best when you're not using it with cover. I mean, you're still behind cover, you're just not using cover (with spacebar).



Since shockwave doesn't require any target to even work and can pass through walls, that means you use shockwave while strafing behind cover - obviously this works best with high covers.

Shockwave seems to work best with the AR variant (particularly vindicator) since shockwave does some damage to enemy barrier/shields/armor as well as stagger them for about 1-2 seconds giving you some time to headshot with vindicator.



For levels where I can safely strafe behind high cover, I usually spam shockwave whenever possible since I never even have to put myself outside cover and get hit by anyone while doing so. I'm not sure how useful it is for the vanguard, but I was surprised with shockwave's effectiveness once I started using it behind cover without using cover.

[sinosleep]

Sabresandiego wrote...

Pull is good, but I find it better on a squadmate then on yourself, especially since you have to invest points in shockwave to get it. I suggest squad cryo ammo and reave instead of pull.

I know you like reave, but frankly I find it over powered and game breaking and as such I will NEVER use it on any of my characters. As rumination888 showed in is gunless soldier vid, reave is the closest thing to an I win button this game has. WIth reave, you don't need to manage your squad, you don't need to use guns, you don't need to do ANYTHING in fact, it's just ridiculous. 

[Mossa_missa]

Area pull FTW.

I found it useful to use Jacob as engineer. His squad ammo and Area Pull is a nice combination. Combine that with a armor hitt ability and you can have enemies flying around early. It also have a short cooldown even for Jacob so you can chain Pull and leve one or more enemies disabled.

"edited, dident se the vanguard in the title, I leve my message here anyway."

Modifié par Mossa_missa, 01 mars 2010 - 07:41 .

[Coughee Brotha]

I Like shockwave because it can stumble enemies out of cover opening them up for fire.  Pull is good to instantly take someone out of the fight. especially if their defenses are down and they go back into cover.  this helps stop gunfire and takes a enemy out of battle.  its also good for those far away enemies once their defenses are down of course 

[Sabresandiego]

sinosleep wrote...

Sabresandiego wrote...

Pull is good, but I find it better on a squadmate then on yourself, especially since you have to invest points in shockwave to get it. I suggest squad cryo ammo and reave instead of pull.

I know you like reave, but frankly I find it over powered and game breaking and as such I will NEVER use it on any of my characters. As rumination888 showed in is gunless soldier vid, reave is the closest thing to an I win button this game has. WIth reave, you don't need to manage your squad, you don't need to use guns, you don't need to do ANYTHING in fact, it's just ridiculous. 

Area reave is insanely good, but if youre going to boycott powers because they are really good then you might as well boycott warp explosion, charge, adrenaline rush, and cloak because they are all I win buttons as well.

[RamsenC]

Sabresandiego wrote...

sinosleep wrote...

Sabresandiego wrote...

Pull is good, but I find it better on a squadmate then on yourself, especially since you have to invest points in shockwave to get it. I suggest squad cryo ammo and reave instead of pull.

I know you like reave, but frankly I find it over powered and game breaking and as such I will NEVER use it on any of my characters. As rumination888 showed in is gunless soldier vid, reave is the closest thing to an I win button this game has. WIth reave, you don't need to manage your squad, you don't need to use guns, you don't need to do ANYTHING in fact, it's just ridiculous. 

Area reave is insanely good, but if youre going to boycott powers because they are really good then you might as well boycott warp explosion, charge, adrenaline rush, and cloak because they are all I win buttons as well.

Area reave is only insanely good against collectors, otherwise almost any other ability will do a better job. If they have a shield use overload, if they have armor use incenerate, if they have health only use pull>warp, etc.

I noticed in your video you are fighting collectors, lets see something with standard shield/health enemies like the vast majority of missions in the game.

Modifié par RamsenC, 01 mars 2010 - 12:43 .

[Sabresandiego]

RamsenC wrote...

Sabresandiego wrote...

sinosleep wrote...

Sabresandiego wrote...

Pull is good, but I find it better on a squadmate then on yourself, especially since you have to invest points in shockwave to get it. I suggest squad cryo ammo and reave instead of pull.

I know you like reave, but frankly I find it over powered and game breaking and as such I will NEVER use it on any of my characters. As rumination888 showed in is gunless soldier vid, reave is the closest thing to an I win button this game has. WIth reave, you don't need to manage your squad, you don't need to use guns, you don't need to do ANYTHING in fact, it's just ridiculous. 

Area reave is insanely good, but if youre going to boycott powers because they are really good then you might as well boycott warp explosion, charge, adrenaline rush, and cloak because they are all I win buttons as well.

Area reave is only insanely good against collectors, otherwise almost any other ability will do a better job. If they have a shield use overload, if they have armor use incenerate, if they have health only use pull>warp, etc.

I noticed in your video you are fighting collectors, lets see something with standard shield/health enemies like the vast majority of missions in the game.

I will be making more movies soon, I just bought fraps and this is my first movie. But contrary to what you say Ramsen, Mirandas overload wipes shields enough that a double area reave from Samara and Shepard is simply devastating even to blue suns and other types of enemies.

[RamsenC]

I'm sure it is, but a warp detonation is better on health only enemies as I mentioned. I was just bringing up examples where Reave was outshined. A warp detonation will do more damage and have a wider AoE than two reaves.

[Roxlimn]

Warp detonations do a significant amount of damage. Namely, it's the Warp damage applied to all targets within the AoE, plus the physics damage of being thrown about and around. It's substantial, but I'm willing to bet that the damage per target isn't more that two Area Reaves done on the same targets. More AoE, though, definitely.

[RamsenC]

I don't remember where I saw this, but warp is supposed to do double damage when detonated. Thats on top of the force of the explosion. A heavy warp detonation will do more damage than two area reaves, unless I completely misunderstand warp mechanics.

edit: Here we go, its in the gameplay mechanics sticky.

"The detonated target takes double damage from Warp (whatever damage it does at that rank), and gets thrown backwards (away from the impact point) with a force specified by Detonation Force for that rank. Any damage bonuses for biotics or powers in general also get doubled. 

All targets within the Detonation Radius receive full damage from Warp as if they had also been hit by the power. Furthermore, if they are affected by a biotic effect, they get double damage just like the main target. They also get thrown away from the detonation impact point with Detonation Force. These additional targets do not get detonated though (you can't chain detonations)."

This means the target you detonate will take double warp damage and any target not under biotic control will take normal warp damage AND get smacked aside with amazing force. Call me crazy but thats better than two reaves.

Modifié par RamsenC, 01 mars 2010 - 01:20 .

[Roxlimn]

RamsenC:



I won't call you crazy. I do think that it's better than 2 Area Reaves, but primarily because it costs less cooldown, for the knockdown effect, and the crazy area you can get. They do get a substantial amount of damage from being knocked around, but the bulk of the damage will still usually come from being hit with the Warp (unless the explosion knocks them clear off in which case it's insta-kill.).

[RamsenC]

Either way, in every situation theres a superior power to reave, outside of stripping barriers. On top of that warp does that fine as well, so its not even exclusive. Reave just has the nice option of a weaker version for 3 meters of AoE. Not saying reave is bad, just a little overrated.

Modifié par RamsenC, 01 mars 2010 - 01:45 .

[Roxlimn]

I get the feeling that if Warp were the bonus power, it would be getting even more mad props.

[RamsenC]

I would hope so. Reave just feels like a lazy ability. You can pretty much always do something more effective, but its easier to just mash reave.

I do like it for stripping husks if I don't want to bring Mordin along and of course its nice for collectors, but thats where it ends for me.

Modifié par RamsenC, 01 mars 2010 - 01:47 .

[Sabresandiego]

Reave is good vs everything, it is the most versatile biotic besides warp. The one up it has on warp is that it doesnt require an enemy to be defenseless to do AOE damage, where as warp needs a detonation to use its AOE effect which requires a defenseless target to setup. Warp detonations are the most powerful biotic but are not as versatile as reave. Either way, reave and warp are the two best biotics and are neck and neck in terms of which is better.

Also want to mention that I think Samara is the most powerful squad member not only because she has reave, but because she has pull field as well. You can get both, then use both double reaves and warp detonations.

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 01 mars 2010 - 02:53 .

[RamsenC]

I don't disagree about reave being good against many things (other than the most common defense), its just rarely the best option.



As I said its a lazy ability, why do something optimally when you can just spam reave and be fine. I'd rather use the best ability for the given situation, far more tactical and effective than reave spam.

[Sabresandiego]

RamsenC wrote...

I don't disagree about reave being good against many things (other than the most common defense), its just rarely the best option.

As I said its a lazy ability, why do something optimally when you can just spam reave and be fine. I'd rather use the best ability for the given situation, far more tactical and effective than reave spam.

Thats fine, but you cannot learn warp, incinerate, overload or other specialized abilities on a vanguard. You can learn reave, and reave is the best bonus skill a vanguard can take in terms of overall effectiveness throughout the game. Its so damn good that people are claiming they wont use it because its too good.

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 01 mars 2010 - 03:14 .

[RamsenC]

Thats the wonderful thing about having squad mates, you don't need to learn those abilities to use them, that was actually my point. Casting reave on health is a waste of a cooldown and barriers don't appear often enough to make it worth 10 points unless you respec before every collector fight.

On a side note you can learn overload pretty much, its just called energy drain instead. The funny thing is energy drain would actually be more useful to your playstyle since the vast majority of enemies have blue shields.

Modifié par RamsenC, 01 mars 2010 - 03:44 .

[sinosleep]

Sabresandiego wrote...
Area reave is insanely good, but if youre going to boycott powers because they are really good then you might as well boycott warp explosion, charge, adrenaline rush, and cloak because they are all I win buttons as well.

Warp explosion requires teammates or it's not nearly as good (setting up your own warp explosion will net you far less damage since enemies will move around) , charge, adrenaline rush, and cloak all at least require some semblance of skill since they are all gun related abilities. Hell, shame on you for bringing up charge, since you went out of your way to create a guide because "charging gets you killed" so that's null and void. 

RamsenC wrote...
Area reave is only insanely good against collectors, otherwise almost any other ability will do a better job. If they have a shield use overload, if they have armor use incenerate, if they have health only use pull>warp, etc.
.

The problem with reave is that even though it's only EXCELLENT against barriers it's also extremely good against armor and health, and it's an aoe, and it provides a stun, and it restores health. See where I'm going with that? It's a bit damned ridiculous. 

I essentially compare it to the taunt and bubble move from DA:O. Is it a glitch? Is it an exploit? Technically no. Is it cheesy as friggen hell? ABSOLUTELY. 

Modifié par sinosleep, 01 mars 2010 - 04:11 .

[expanding panic]

I don't like pull, I was thinking of maxing out pull and make that area pull but that would only be useful if a group off people were all down to they're health bar at which point shockwave would be better.



I personally like shockwave. It can go anywhere and through anything so it will always do some damage and it can do damage to multiple enemies. With regard to the husk I found shockwave to be extremely useful. I use the pistol that you start off with because it fires faster and hold more ammo. A couple shots with that gun will take away the husks armor; you do that a couple times to different husks then throw shockwave and it kills them all. Its extremely helpful with multiple husks.

With the vangaurd I max out Shockwave and make that range. Max out Reave for power and his passive skill max for health and incendiary ammo for power also. I dont do anyhting with pull or cyro.

[thisisme8]

So, I'm kind of in the middle of making a video right now, and Jack's Shockwave is so very useful to me. I'm liking her more and more.

[Arde5643]

thisisme8 wrote...

So, I'm kind of in the middle of making a video right now, and Jack's Shockwave is so very useful to me. I'm liking her more and more.

You should try out heavy shockwave on your class yourself - preferrably after getting the cooldown and damage upgrades.
Works best if you use the vindicator rifle to snipe headshots after enemies are staggered.

Since shockwave goes through walls, best way to cast it is through the walls of your cover instead of sticking your head out from cover - that's probably why a lot of people hated shockwave initially. In fact, using shockwave reminds me a lot of ME1 combat where most of times it's better for you not to use cover and just strafe in and out from cover.

Strafe out of cover, target enemy with shockwave -> strafe back into cover while casting shockwave at the same time -> strafe out to shoot enemies staggered by shockwave.
Rinse, repeat - you get very little damage while you'll be stripping mooks of their defenses very quickly giving you easy time to charge in and clean up. Hell, you can even just shockwave them to death and try to shoot them on the air with your vindicator rifle.

It's best used for medium to long range combat though, the slow casting makes it unusable for CQC combat - just use charge for CQC as usual.