213 réponses à ce sujet

[RamsenC]

sinosleep wrote...

The problem with reave is that even though it's only EXCELLENT against barriers it's also extremely good against armor and health, and it's an aoe, and it provides a stun, and it restores health. See where I'm going with that? It's a bit damned ridiculous. 

I essentially compare it to the taunt and bubble move from DA:O. Is it a glitch? Is it an exploit? Technically no. Is it cheesy as friggen hell? ABSOLUTELY. 

You are right about it being useful in many situations, but its not the best option in every situation. Its a jack of all trades ability with great barrier stripping. I don't see relying on squad mate powers as a downside either. In fact its more of an upside because it does not effect my cooldown.  The DOA bubble glitch was pretty much the best way to play the game until it was fixed, but reave spam is not the best way to play this game. Its just very effective for how little brain cells you need to implement it. 

edit: Silly me getting sidetracked by reave talk, I'm actually curious about thisisme's shockwave video.

Modifié par RamsenC, 02 mars 2010 - 02:24 .

[Sabresandiego]

RamsenC wrote...

sinosleep wrote...

The problem with reave is that even though it's only EXCELLENT against barriers it's also extremely good against armor and health, and it's an aoe, and it provides a stun, and it restores health. See where I'm going with that? It's a bit damned ridiculous. 

I essentially compare it to the taunt and bubble move from DA:O. Is it a glitch? Is it an exploit? Technically no. Is it cheesy as friggen hell? ABSOLUTELY. 

You are right about it being useful in many situations, but its not the best option in every situation. Its a jack of all trades ability with great barrier stripping. I don't see relying on squad mate powers as a downside either. In fact its more of an upside because it does not effect my cooldown.  The DOA bubble glitch was pretty much the best way to play the game until it was fixed, but reave spam is not the best way to play this game. Its just very effective for how little brain cells you need to implement it. 

edit: Silly me getting sidetracked by reave talk, I'm actually curious about thisisme's shockwave video.

We have Ramsen arguing that reave isnt really that good which is why he wont take it, and sinosleep arguing that it is so good that it is cheating and that is why he wont take it.

I am going to have to say that reave is overpowered. But I stand by my statement that charge, adrenaline rush, warp, and multiple other abilities are overpowered as well. Do you know how easy the game is if you just push adrenaline rush every 5 seconds and sit behind cover the rest of the time? Or if you use an infiltrator and just use sniper slow motion headshots. The game is not hard, reave is one of the best abilities and it is overpowered but so are a multitude of other abilities.

[sinosleep]

You didn't refute what I said though. You specifically set out to make a guide that focused less on charge because the ability gets you killed. You imply that those of us that make videos featuring heavy use of charge have to go through take after take after take because it gets you killed (which btw, isn't really the case and most charge heavy vids do have a method to their madness like using charge to flank, leaving harbinger for last, etc, etc) and yet you are going to call it over powered at the same time?



Like I said, all the other things you mention require some modicum of skill (regardless of how little, ALL gunplay requires some unless you are pause aiming) other than reave. You can sit behind cover and just launch reave after reave after reave and cakewalk through the game.

[DarthCaine]

Pull yes, shockwave not so much

[Sabresandiego]

sinosleep wrote...

You didn't refute what I said though. You specifically set out to make a guide that focused less on charge because the ability gets you killed. You imply that those of us that make videos featuring heavy use of charge have to go through take after take after take because it gets you killed (which btw, isn't really the case and most charge heavy vids do have a method to their madness like using charge to flank, leaving harbinger for last, etc, etc) and yet you are going to call it over powered at the same time?

Like I said, all the other things you mention require some modicum of skill (regardless of how little, ALL gunplay requires some unless you are pause aiming) other than reave. You can sit behind cover and just launch reave after reave after reave and cakewalk through the game.

That guide is for normal players, not people who have been through the level a hundred times and know charge patterns, which enemies are coming, etc. I clearly state in the guide that charging around is fine for an experienced player, even though playing tactically is always best if you are going for minimal reloads.

Regardless, I agree with you that reave is overpowered, I dont dispute it. It's not broken like forcefielding a tank was in dragons age. There are many abilties just as overpowered as area reave. Adrenaline Rush is one. Warp is another. You say you can beat the game by just casting reave while sitting behind cover, and you are correct. But you can also beat the game by just casting adrenaline rush, popping off headshots, sitting behind cover while it recharges, and repeating. Its a single player game which has a lower skill requirement than multiplayer first person shooters, thats not really a revelation though.

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 02 mars 2010 - 02:56 .

[RamsenC]

Not sure about anyone else, but I haven't played through the game that many times. I go by instinct not memory. Don't assume people can't play more daring because you or some other people can't. It really isn't even that hard if you have mild experience playing twitch games.

Also I never said reave was not that good, its just not the best. You are saying it is the best and I'm refuting that by saying its good, but many other abilities will handle most situations better. That's a huge difference. I would get Reave as a bonus power for engineer, I'll give it that. 

Modifié par RamsenC, 02 mars 2010 - 03:11 .

[Sabresandiego]

RamsenC wrote...

Not sure about anyone else, but I haven't played through the game that many times. I go by instinct not memory. Don't assume people can't play more daring because you or some other people can't. It really isn't even that hard if you have mild experience playing twitch games.

Also I never said reave was not that good, its just not the best. You are saying it is the best and I'm refuting that by saying its good, but many other abilities will handle most situations better. That's a huge difference. I would get Reave as a bonus power for engineer, I'll give it that. 

I must play tactically because Im not good enough to be reckless I guess. It is kind of odd though how I clear the levels faster than the reckless players and with 100% health the entire time.

[sinosleep]

I only have 2 complete playthroughs myself, though I have several in varying stages of completion. My thing has always been that the game is set up in a way where it's EXTREMELY easy to memorize where enemies are and where they are coming from. I don't go out of my way to memorize these things, but when the levels all unfold in VERY linear fashion it's not as if there are all that many places where bad guys can come from. They will ALL come from in front of you, and they will be either to the right or left, most of the time in plain sight. When you get flanked in this game you are getting flanked because you passed a spawn point you should have seen on the way in.

[Sabresandiego]

sinosleep wrote...

I only have 2 complete playthroughs myself, though I have several in varying stages of completion. My thing has always been that the game is set up in a way where it's EXTREMELY easy to memorize where enemies are and where they are coming from. I don't go out of my way to memorize these things, but when the levels all unfold in VERY linear fashion it's not as if there are all that many places where bad guys can come from. They will ALL come from in front of you, and they will be either to the right or left, most of the time in plain sight. When you get flanked in this game you are getting flanked because you passed a spawn point you should have seen on the way in.

Pretty much. The game is very easy and linear yet is still lots of fun. I have 3 complete playthroughs

1 insanity soldier
1 insanity vanguard
1 insanity+ vanguard
and a soldier that is halfway through insanity+

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 02 mars 2010 - 03:40 .

[Omega-202]

Sabresandiego wrote...

I must play tactically because Im not good enough to be reckless I guess. It is kind of odd though how I clear the levels faster than the reckless players and with 100% health the entire time.

I'm sorry but the speed thing just doesn't hold true.  You play very well for a conservative approach but on my third play through now on Insanity, I'm most definitely beating the clear times on the videos I've seen of you in the Suicide Mission with out reloads.  You spent a full 14 seconds hiding in the same cover shooting only twice in your pull video.  The times I've watched that video, I almost feel like nails on a chalkboard seeing the Drone behind Harbinger just sitting there next to perfect cover while you waited a full 8 seconds before charging him.     

Sure you may be at 100% health, but success is binary not on a spectrum.  Either you lived or you didn't.  You can't make a claim of faster though.

[Sabresandiego]

Omega-202 wrote...

Sabresandiego wrote...

I must play tactically because Im not good enough to be reckless I guess. It is kind of odd though how I clear the levels faster than the reckless players and with 100% health the entire time.

I'm sorry but the speed thing just doesn't hold true.  You play very well for a conservative approach but on my third play through now on Insanity, I'm most definitely beating the clear times on the videos I've seen of you in the Suicide Mission with out reloads.  You spent a full 14 seconds hiding in the same cover shooting only twice in your pull video.  The times I've watched that video, I almost feel like nails on a chalkboard seeing the Drone behind Harbinger just sitting there next to perfect cover while you waited a full 8 seconds before charging him.     

Sure you may be at 100% health, but success is binary not on a spectrum.  Either you lived or you didn't.  You can't make a claim of faster though.

Like I said, they werent speed runs. I was trying to film a tutorial. They just happened to be faster than every other video I watched. You also have to remember that I stayed for the last fight instead of running to the button, both runs are sub 4 minute clears. I can film a speed run and post it if you want. The whole point is tactical doesnt mean slow and boring. It means controlled aggression.

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 02 mars 2010 - 04:31 .

[RamsenC]

I think you are confusing a more conservative approach to a more tactical approach. You do not play anymore tactically than sinonsleep for example. I think its laughable to call reave spam tactical.

[Sabresandiego]

RamsenC wrote...

I think you are confusing a more conservative approach to a more tactical approach. You do not play anymore tactically than sinonsleep for example. I think its laughable to call reave spam tactical.

Im done arguing with you as this is pointless. You will disagree with me or find a reason to argue with me on everything I say no matter what it is.

[Omega-202]

Sabresandiego wrote...


Like I said, they werent speed runs. I was trying to film a tutorial. They just happened to be faster than every other video I watched. I can film a speed run and post it if you want. The whole point is tactical doesnt mean slow and boring. It means controlled aggression.

Because obviously everyone else sits at their computer/Xbox fuming with unchained blind rage and no tactical forethought.  

Your videos and guides show conservatism.  They are no more tactical than Sinosleep's or Kronner or my play style. 
High risk and what appears to you to be reckless does not absolutely negate the facts that they are tactical.  

And if your videos are faster than every other one you've seen, I'm not sure you've watched enough.  

[cxensign]

Flexibility is a form of power.  The main attraction of Reave on a Vanguard is that it's usually a good use of your cooldown whenever Charge isn't appropriate.  On any of the active ability classes, Reave is a redundant tool that is usually worse than another class ability you already have, and is only marginally better when it's useful at all.  The only classes where Reave is realistically in the discussion are Soldier and Vanguard.

Reave is not out of line with any of the other defense stripping abilities; if there was a choice between taking Reave, Incinerate, and Warp, there would be hearty debate over which made the best bonus power.  The main selling point of Reave in that trio is how it performs against collectors; "looks good on TV" is definitely a perk!

In a vacuum I think Slam is a more powerful tool than Reave, particularly in the early game before you have the points to evolve either.  However Reave compliments the Vanguard's abilities better, and covers up weaknesses at long range or when Charge is suicidal; that you have Pull available as a class power doesn't hurt either.

...and really, what else are you going to take?  Energy Drain is better for some of the missions, but it's completely dead in others; Reave is always useful somewhere, and ultimately that's what it comes down to - when Charge isn't what you want, Reave will probably be useful, and without a deep toolbox of powers that's exactly what you want.

[Sabresandiego]

Omega-202 wrote...

Sabresandiego wrote...


Like I said, they werent speed runs. I was trying to film a tutorial. They just happened to be faster than every other video I watched. I can film a speed run and post it if you want. The whole point is tactical doesnt mean slow and boring. It means controlled aggression.

Because obviously everyone else sits at their computer/Xbox fuming with unchained blind rage and no tactical forethought.  

Your videos and guides show conservatism.  They are no more tactical than Sinosleep's or Kronner or my play style. 
High risk and what appears to you to be reckless does not absolutely negate the facts that they are tactical.  

And if your videos are faster than every other one you've seen, I'm not sure you've watched enough.  

If you dont like the way I play, play however you want. I'm not forcing my playstyle down your throat.

Second, please link me to a faster and cleaner clear than my own of suicide run part 1. It's not that I dont think they exist (like I said my video isnt a speed run), I just havent seen one and would like to.

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 02 mars 2010 - 04:48 .

[xedgorex]

I think it's really unfair to label your style as the "tactical vanguard" it implies heavily that anyone who charges around like a maniac not tactical. Just because us charge fans might spend more time in the red than you doesnt mean we're less tactical.



I feel like your style is a much 'safer' but less vanguard style. If you're not going to charge as often as possible why are you really playing vanguard? Just because you can sometimes doesn't seem like a big draw to me.



Idk i guess i subscribe to the belief of ChargeShootMeleeChargeShootMelee repeat.

[RamsenC]

I'll argue with you since saber has had enough

cxensign wrote...

Flexibility is a form of power.  The main attraction of Reave on a Vanguard is that it's usually a good use of your cooldown whenever Charge isn't appropriate.  On any of the active ability classes, Reave is a redundant tool that is usually worse than another class ability you already have, and is only marginally better when it's useful at all.  The only classes where Reave is realistically in the discussion are Soldier and Vanguard.

Forget Vanguard for a moment, getting reave on soldier is a huge waste of points. You are much better off getting all your ammo types. Cryo for your squad, fire for organics, and disrupter for synthetics. If you want to respec before every collector mission to spam reave thats fine, but its not going to give you the best mileage for most of the game. Reave is only worthwhile on the engineer if you want to give up some oompf against armor for barrier stripping. Back to vanguard, when charge is not appropriate 1 point Barrier is a better ability. You get your shield boost and you can shoot your enemies. Shooting is awesome for defense stripping, seems people forget that. Also I have to keep saying this because people keep ignoring it, you can use squad abilities to cover a weakness.

cxensign wrote...
Reave is not out of line with any of the other defense stripping abilities; if there was a choice between taking Reave, Incinerate, and Warp, there would be hearty debate over which made the best bonus power.  The main selling point of Reave in that trio is how it performs against collectors; "looks good on TV" is definitely a perk!

There is a choice. The squad you bring is your choice. This thread is also not a debate over the best bonus power, it was about pull vs shockwave, but reave was mentioned and now the thread has been sidetracked. 

cxensign wrote...
In a vacuum I think Slam is a more powerful tool than Reave, particularly in the early game before you have the points to evolve either.  However Reave compliments the Vanguard's abilities better, and covers up weaknesses at long range or when Charge is suicidal; that you have Pull available as a class power doesn't hurt either.

How does defense stripping with a long cooldown compliment Vanguard abilities. Especially since (tired of saying this) your squad can do that for you. Vanguard does not need defense stripping since weapons are your primary form of offense. If you were an adept you would have a point. Fast cooldown crowd control abilities compliment the Vanguard best.

cxensign wrote...
...and really, what else are you going to take?  Energy Drain is better for some of the missions, but it's completely dead in others; Reave is always useful somewhere, and ultimately that's what it comes down to - when Charge isn't what you want, Reave will probably be useful, and without a deep toolbox of powers that's exactly what you want.

You don't take a bonus power at all. Putting leftover points in barrier when you can't charge is a fine idea, but not necessary. Also having barrier on Shep and reave on Samara gives you more tools in your box than just reave on Shep. All you need is one point in barrier to get 90% of its use. 

Modifié par RamsenC, 02 mars 2010 - 05:07 .

[sinosleep]

@Sabresandiego

My vid is quicker than yours. You simply aren't taking starting position and time into the equation and basing it entirely off of full video length.



My vid starts

34 seconds in

ends at 4:50

294 seconds total seconds subtract 34 for

258 total seconds



Your vid



7 seconds in

ends at 4:43

283 seconds subtract 7

276 total seconds



And most importantly Rumination888's vid in which AS A SOLDIER he doesn't use his gun and uses nothing but reave is even quicker than yours. Which shows how grossly overpowered reave is on that particular mission, and that had I chosen to be cheap and brought Samara with me I could have easily cleared the mission much quicker.



19 seconds in

ends at 4:45

285 total seconds subtract 19 seconds

266 seconds total

[Sabresandiego]

sinosleep wrote...

@Sabresandiego
My vid is quicker than yours. You simply aren't taking starting position and time into the equation and basing it entirely off of full video length.

My vid starts
34 seconds in
ends at 4:50
294 seconds total seconds subtract 34 for
258 total seconds

Your vid

7 seconds in
ends at 4:43
283 seconds subtract 7
276 total seconds

And most importantly Rumination888's vid in which AS A SOLDIER he doesn't use his gun and uses nothing but reave is even quicker than yours. Which shows how grossly overpowered reave is on that particular mission, and that had I chosen to be cheap and brought Samara with me I could have easily cleared the mission much quicker.

19 seconds in
ends at 4:45
285 total seconds subtract 19 seconds
266 seconds total

are you completely retarded? All the videos you just listed skipped the last fight and ran to the button. If I did that, my video ends a good 30 seconds before all of them, and Im not even trying for speed. Not to mention Im the only one who never falls below 100% health.

[sinosleep]

Once again genius, if I bring samara along for reave I clear that section even quicker. And it wasn't a flat out speed run either, it was simply an end game run because it was requested of me. I bring along Samara for reave, and I will crush your time. Easily. And falling below 100% health means jack ****. Did I die? Did Rumination888 die? No? Then it doesn't ****ing matter.

Modifié par sinosleep, 02 mars 2010 - 05:09 .

[Sabresandiego]

sinosleep wrote...

Once again genius, if I bring samara along for reave I clear that section even quicker. And it wasn't a flat out speed run either, it was simply an end game run because it was requested of me. I bring along Samara for reave, and I will crush your time. Easily. And falling below 100% health means jack ****. Did I die? Did Rumination888 die? No? Then it doesn't ****ing matter.

Are you mad that I just proved that my "conservative" style cleared the map faster than all the videos you linked and with no danger of death? Now you are back to claiming reave is cheating, although I do the same run just as fast with no reave and no samara in my Pull/Barrier tutorial. Try again please

[sinosleep]

If you want me to actually film a speed run I can and will crush your gimped adept styled video.

[xedgorex]

I think a true test of skill for a class is playing sans-bonus ability.

It's not in the vein of what your class is and it gives a twist that feels unnatural.

Your runs may be faster (in your head) but they are inherently less vanguard.

[Sabresandiego]

xedgorex wrote...

I think a true test of skill for a class is playing sans-bonus ability.
It's not in the vein of what your class is and it gives a twist that feels unnatural.
Your runs may be faster (in your head) but they are inherently less vanguard.

How is my pull barrier video less vanguard? Its actually faster than my reave video, and barrier is hardly a special worth mentioning when compared to reave.