213 réponses à ce sujet

[Roxlimn]

Dannok1234:



I think it might be useful to make a vid showcasing someone who isn't mopping the floor using a Chargeaguard. This will allow one to make a sound judgement about whether to charge or not using cues that don't depend on your knowing the layout of the level and the flow of the game, and not using godly aiming skills. A more normative video guide, if you will.

[sinosleep]

I already made a post in this thread about why I think the whole map layout thing is kind of irrelevant but here it is again. ME 2 levels are EXTREMELY linear. Mobs will appear in front of you, usually in plain view, either in front of you or to the sides. Practically the only times you will ever be flanked will be from advancing past a spawn point you should have seen on your way to passing it. I really don't think that map layout is 1.) much of an issue or 2.) very hard to come to grips with any way. As I've repeatedly stated, I have never gone out of my way to memorize spawn points, but when they are so blatant I can't help myself.

Modifié par sinosleep, 02 mars 2010 - 10:10 .

[Roxlimn]

Case in point:

In Grunt's recruitment mission, you will come to a set of crate covers with a couple Elites, a pair of Heavies in the back, and a pair of mooks to the side. There will be a ramp with a sniper position to the left, and more Elites and enemies to the left side of the field.

There is no way to know that charging to the other side of the field to take out the Heavies is going to get you flanked by Heavies and Elites while a bunch of mooks in a sniper position are raining fire on your head. In maps and situations where enemies don't spawn past the point of your Charge, this flanking tactic can be good. In this case, it's easy to get yourself killed.

Modifié par Roxlimn, 02 mars 2010 - 10:19 .

[sinosleep]

And it takes all of one death to figure that out. Not to mention that if you're talking about where I think you are talking about flanking the heavies can actually make the other heavies not spawn. Which is exactly what I do in the vanguard charge is fun fraps edition.

[thisisme8]

Here's the clincher. You can Charge past certain spawns, which in turn might yield a smaller second spawn, but once said second spawn is up, sometimes the enemies from the first spawn will disappear entirely.

[Roxlimn]

sinosleep:



See, I may be alone in this, but constantly reloading to find out finer points of map layout and spawn points isn't what I would consider fun. Just sayin'.



A less charge-tastic vid might not be quite as exciting as you prefer, but it would be more instructive.

[sinosleep]

Roxlimn, spots like the one you mentioned are few and far between, not only that, but again if it's the spot I'm thinking of it doesn't even really apply. So stop with all this CONSTANT nonsense. Even on my first playthrough, I rarely died. I have a couple of vids showing entirely death free missions uncut. It's not that hard, it didn't require much reloading. Some of you act is if a standard vanguard mission requires 15 deaths. I'm pretty sure I didn't die 15 times in the entire first playthrough. 

Modifié par sinosleep, 02 mars 2010 - 10:35 .

[Average Gatsby]

I don't think the claim that the "Charge Charge Charge" tactic is too difficult for people is an effective argument when talking about how valuable the tactic is. Just because it may seem tough doesn't make it less effective, nor does it make it somehow not the best advice simply because it is less accessible.



I think this is especially true when we are all talking about insanity play. If you're playing on HC or Insanity, you already have decided that you didn't want an easier game, so talking about the inaccessibility or skill involved in a tactic doesn't really seem to fit. And it just so happens that with the charge-often tactic, it crosses all difficulty levels since charge, especially area charge, is even beastlier on lower difficulties.

[Roxlimn]

sinosleep:



Whether or not YOU died isn't of any concern to me. It is not of concern to anyone who wants to learn how to do charging. What he wants is for HIM not to die. Telling him it is easy does not help him in any way whatsoever. Telling him HOW to make it easy does. In that case, yes, spawn points and layouts are useful and helpful.



AverageGatsby:



No, that doesn't follow. Just because I like playing on Hardcore doesn't mean I want the most inaccessible, most difficult to use power on my build so I can use it to make 2 minute runs of every mission once I've developed the skills over 8 subsequent playthroughs. Sometimes, I just want something that will help me go with Hardcore using my particular skill set.



"Use charge a lot," turns out not to be that much of a help, particularly for me. Sometimes, it's great, sometimes it blows up in my face. Knowing when it's going to blow up in my face is helpful. Telling me I'm a noob is not.

[sinosleep]

Roxlimn. I'm going to give you an example from this very board.



Divine Flame had an issue with a section of Garrus' recruit mission



I replied with this vid. The coming quote was the end result

Divine Flame wrote...



I would like to just let everyone know that i made it past that room on garrus' recruit mission. Did it just like Sinosleep's video and got it on my 2nd try easy as pie. Thank you in general to all you helpful ppl for vanguards but especially Sinosleep, you rock.

It's not that hard.

[sedrikhcain]

Sabresandiego wrote...

RamsenC wrote...

sinosleep wrote...

The problem with reave is that even though it's only EXCELLENT against barriers it's also extremely good against armor and health, and it's an aoe, and it provides a stun, and it restores health. See where I'm going with that? It's a bit damned ridiculous. 

I essentially compare it to the taunt and bubble move from DA:O. Is it a glitch? Is it an exploit? Technically no. Is it cheesy as friggen hell? ABSOLUTELY. 

You are right about it being useful in many situations, but its not the best option in every situation. Its a jack of all trades ability with great barrier stripping. I don't see relying on squad mate powers as a downside either. In fact its more of an upside because it does not effect my cooldown.  The DOA bubble glitch was pretty much the best way to play the game until it was fixed, but reave spam is not the best way to play this game. Its just very effective for how little brain cells you need to implement it. 

edit: Silly me getting sidetracked by reave talk, I'm actually curious about thisisme's shockwave video.

We have Ramsen arguing that reave isnt really that good which is why he wont take it, and sinosleep arguing that it is so good that it is cheating and that is why he wont take it.

I am going to have to say that reave is overpowered. But I stand by my statement that charge, adrenaline rush, warp, and multiple other abilities are overpowered as well. Do you know how easy the game is if you just push adrenaline rush every 5 seconds and sit behind cover the rest of the time? Or if you use an infiltrator and just use sniper slow motion headshots. The game is not hard, reave is one of the best abilities and it is overpowered but so are a multitude of other abilities.

I think "overpowered" is a poor term. It is always subjective and frequently indicative of arrogance (not that I'm saying it is in your case. i haven't seen enough context to know). ME2 wasn't just designed for hardcore gamers who spend hundreds of hours playing each game on the hardest difficulty level. It was also designed for novices, occasional players, etc. If playing a certain way makes the game way too easy for you, there are plenty of things you can do to give yourself more of a challenge. Rest assured, not everyone will breeze through every mission like gods of the ME universe.

Also, people play for different reasons. I just finished a playthrough on sentinel/hardcore and am considering another one, even though it was pretty darn easy past the halfway point, because it was loads of fun -- and reave, incidentally, was a big reason why.

If there was an ability that made the game so easy that everyone out there was finishing whole playthroughs without dying, then I think that would be an example of something that's overpowered. But just because there are some techniques you can use that make the game too simple for the 15% of the playing population who are "power gamers" doesn't make it overpowered.

[Average Gatsby]

Roxlimn wrote...

AverageGatsby:

No, that doesn't follow. Just because I like playing on Hardcore doesn't mean I want the most inaccessible, most difficult to use power on my build so I can use it to make 2 minute runs of every mission once I've developed the skills over 8 subsequent playthroughs. Sometimes, I just want something that will help me go with Hardcore using my particular skill set.

"Use charge a lot," turns out not to be that much of a help, particularly for me. Sometimes, it's great, sometimes it blows up in my face. Knowing when it's going to blow up in my face is helpful. Telling me I'm a noob is not.

Woah definitely not calling anyone a noob or anything like that. Thats not what I meant at all.

Someone said it some where that most of the time when they died as a vanguard, it was due to lack of charging and not charging itself. I have a vanguard, and I'd be inclined to agree. Maybe someone needs to put together some helpful how-to's on the charge often strat because I find that most if the time I die when I either charge stupidly instead of tactically, or don't charge fast enough.

One thing that really helped me out was liberal use of the pause button to pick out what target to charge, and also to hit pause right when the cooldown was finished instead of trying to reach for 1. I basically spammed pause, but it was still really fun getting to see the battlefield and picking out specifically what unit would be best to slam into. I can honestly say that I rarely, I mean very rarely, died when I paused to set up the charge.

[thisisme8]

Average Gatsby wrote...

Roxlimn wrote...

AverageGatsby:

No, that doesn't follow. Just because I like playing on Hardcore doesn't mean I want the most inaccessible, most difficult to use power on my build so I can use it to make 2 minute runs of every mission once I've developed the skills over 8 subsequent playthroughs. Sometimes, I just want something that will help me go with Hardcore using my particular skill set.

"Use charge a lot," turns out not to be that much of a help, particularly for me. Sometimes, it's great, sometimes it blows up in my face. Knowing when it's going to blow up in my face is helpful. Telling me I'm a noob is not.

Woah definitely not calling anyone a noob or anything like that. Thats not what I meant at all.

Someone said it some where that most of the time when they died as a vanguard, it was due to lack of charging and not charging itself. I have a vanguard, and I'd be inclined to agree. Maybe someone needs to put together some helpful how-to's on the charge often strat because I find that most if the time I die when I either charge stupidly instead of tactically, or don't charge fast enough.

One thing that really helped me out was liberal use of the pause button to pick out what target to charge, and also to hit pause right when the cooldown was finished instead of trying to reach for 1. I basically spammed pause, but it was still really fun getting to see the battlefield and picking out specifically what unit would be best to slam into. I can honestly say that I rarely, I mean very rarely, died when I paused to set up the charge.

Hmmm...  pause spamming as a Vanguard...  maybe just a goatee.<_<

[sedrikhcain]

sinosleep wrote...

Roxlimn, spots like the one you mentioned are few and far between, not only that, but again if it's the spot I'm thinking of it doesn't even really apply. So stop with all this CONSTANT nonsense. Even on my first playthrough, I rarely died. I have a couple of vids showing entirely death free missions uncut. It's not that hard, it didn't require much reloading. Some of you act is if a standard vanguard mission requires 15 deaths. I'm pretty sure I didn't die 15 times in the entire first playthrough. 

By the time I finished my first vanguard playthrough, not much gave me trouble (exception: the last firefight under the biotic bubble on the suicide mission). But it took a while to get to that point. Everyone's learning curve isn't the same.

[sedrikhcain]

This thread started out as a real treat. Boy did it ever deteriorate. The conversation sounds like stuff I heard on the bus to school in 7th grade. I mean, really, what not just call it "my vanguard can beat up your vanguard" and be done with it.

[sinosleep]

sedrikhcain wrote...

This thread started out as a real treat. Boy did it ever deteriorate. The conversation sounds like stuff I heard on the bus to school in 7th grade. I mean, really, what not just call it "my vanguard can beat up your vanguard" and be done with it.

Where did that come from? You had two normal replies and then you follow it up with this? 

[Roxlimn]

AverageGatsby:



Now, see, that's what I'm talking about. You have a gift for instruction, I think. It comes to you naturally.



You lay out the instructions, dissect what's what and tell us tips and tricks on how to make the game easier in easy, idiot-proof steps. Not everyone does that.



When posters say pithy one-liners like "If you die too much using charge, you're not charging enough," I think it sends the wrong message. It can be taken to mean that you should charge whenever you have a target you can target with charge, when what's really being meant (I assume) is that you can use Charge to recharge your Shields, take out a nearby enemy quicker, or relocate to a safer portion of the field, if you have mooks there.



The useful portion of the message is being lost in an effort to sound all elegant and sophisticated. A more itemized, less pithy approach to Charge-use instruction would lower the learning curve all around, IMO.

[sinosleep]

This is why I get irritated in these threads. Gatsby says something and you act as if others haven't been saying similar things.

Maybe not in this thread, but in the huge vanguard thread we've all been saying things like use charge to flank, charge enemies near cover, use charge on an enemy that's defenseless to send him flying and focus on the guy next to him when charging groups, etc, etc, etc. Quite specific instruction on how and when to use charge. I mean, even if I don't bother to add text to my vids, I think it's pretty clear to see I'm not just charging willy nilly in them. There's a method to the madness. 

Modifié par sinosleep, 02 mars 2010 - 11:28 .

[Roxlimn]

sinosleep:



It would be helpful to tell the viewer exactly what that method is. Sometimes, it's a little opaque, and more than a little sometimes, you're using a complex combination of a lot of skills layered on top of each other to achieve results that not everyone can do.



I mean seriously, look at Gatsby's earlier Adept vids. He throws Singularity at a location (not hard to do), shoot off some mook's defenses with some decidedly mediocre gun-work, and then proceeds to fire off an auto-aim power while the game is paused. You gotta admit, that's pretty gosh-darned spelled out for everyone to see.



Charging into a location involves a series of judgments and knowledge about the location that may not be immediately obvious to everyone. If you can't figure out WHY you're doing so well, then don't get pissed if everyone doesn't get it either.

[sedrikhcain]

sinosleep wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...

This thread started out as a real treat. Boy did it ever deteriorate. The conversation sounds like stuff I heard on the bus to school in 7th grade. I mean, really, what not just call it "my vanguard can beat up your vanguard" and be done with it.

Where did that come from? You had two normal replies and then you follow it up with this? 

It wasn't in reference to anything directed towards me. It was after skimming through the thread and reading the sniping posts from the last few pages.

Your PM was quite civil and useful, which is why I was surprised to see you caught up in a bunch of craziness here. In fairness, I didn't go through and sort out exactly who said what, so maybe you were just on the receiving end of all of it.

At any rate, it's you guys' conversation. I won't be commenting on it further. Enjoy yourselves.

[sinosleep]

I can't figure out why I'm doing so well? What on earth are you talking about? 

Modifié par sinosleep, 02 mars 2010 - 11:43 .

[rumination888]

sinosleep wrote...

I can't figure out why I'm doing so well? What on earth are you talking about? 

Just ignore him.

[RamsenC]

thisisme8 wrote...
Hmmm...  pause spamming as a Vanguard...  maybe just a goatee.<_<

Haha, you must be drunk.

Speaking of which, everyone should relax and get drunk. 

[Average Gatsby]

I only learned the pause thing and correct charging after this starting Infamous thread:



Vanguard Fun not Functional on Insanity: http://social.biowar...8/index/1006000



Maybe it should be resurrected because it was really a debate about the fundamentals of the Vanguard class; me thinking it was a pseudo-tank and trying to play that way, sinosleep and others showing that its a burst damage type class that needs to be aggressive in order to increase survivability.

[sinosleep]

Which is another one of the reasons that I got irritated by that last post. WE'RE the ones that converted you to the vanguard, but we can't explain what makes it function? How on earth does that make any sense?

Modifié par sinosleep, 02 mars 2010 - 12:17 .