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[sinosleep]

 Ok, so some people on these forums are coming around to the idea that all the focus is defense stripping powers is largely unwarranted. Time and time again devs have gone into threads where people claimed common enemies had two and three times as many defenses as they did health and told them they were flat out wrong. Well, what this thread is about is basically proving them right. And the easiest way to do so is with the melee attack. The melee attack does a set number of damage to all defenses and mobs in game. So an easy way to check the ratio of health to defenses is the number of melee attacks it takes to kill something.

Our friend  Dannok1234 has already provided some information in regards to geth enemies

Dannok1234 wrote...
(As a side note to clear up your confusion about how strong enemy defenses are, specifically Geth. A geth trooper will take 6 melee hits (Fully upgraded at level 30 on insanity) before it dies. 3 of those are used to remove the shield, 3 are used to remove health. Same 1:1 ratio on the Hunter as well, haven't bothered to try against other geth yet. No I don't have have a video but it's very easy to try for yourself. )

But it would be substantially easier and quicker for someone that doesn't mind modding their game to give themselves immunity from damage to go around meleeing the crap out of every thing and keeping track of what the ratios look like. I'm of the opinion that unless it's an elite mob with 2 forms of defense (merc commanders) or a mob that has no health at all (harbinger, scions) the ratio is generally 1:1. If this is the case, then the overwhelming emphasis on defense stripping powers would seem kind of unwarranted considering the tired argument of "once you strip them of defenses they die in no time" wouldn't really apply. Since the different weapons all actually have native modifiers that are higher against some type of defense than they are against health, it would actually be quicker to shoot away someone's defenses than to shoot away their health. 

[Spyndel]

Regardless of what the Devs say, anyone who has played the game (at least on Insanity) will attest to the fact that once in the Red, enemies are quickly and easily, if not instantly, dispatched by any character.   Its not so much about whether an enemy has numerically more health than shield, its when they stop being a threat (red bar).

I rarely even waste bullets on a red bar, since most well put together parties will have a way to take them instantly out of play. If not, my squad will shoot them. Even a Ymir Mech is no longer a threat when in the red, and they have lots of health.

Insanity is clearly about removing defenses. Easier modes of the game you can sleepwalk through doing whatever you want since defenses are less common.

Modifié par Spyndel, 27 février 2010 - 05:22 .

[sinosleep]

Um, I play on insanity, and I don't attest to that at all. It usually takes me 3 shots or 2 and a melee to kill standard mobs on my vanguard and scimi. The first shot tends to eliminate (or come damn close) barriers/shields/armor all by it's lonesome leaving health behind. Things do not simply die quicker if the numbers don't match up.

[edit here]

Keep in mind I'm talking strictly about gunplay here since that's the argument I keep seeing on these forums. Clearly there are powers that insta-kill or nearly insta-kill enemies on only health, what I'm talking about is that people that complain about biotics always bring up simply shooting them instead. To which I counter, if enemy defenses go down quicker from gun fire than enemy health (and considering a 1:1 ratio and inherent defense specialty of all weapons) then they do, why wouldn't you shoot away defenses and use powers on health as opposed to using powers on health and shooting away defenses if that's your issue? 

Modifié par sinosleep, 27 février 2010 - 05:38 .

[Spyndel]

Generally, as soon as somethings red in my games, its floating helplessly in the air, being thrown off the map, being crushed like a tin can, being mind controlled, exploding in a warp detonation, being knocked senseless, etc. I usually only waste bullets on a Lieutenant level enemy once theyre in the red.



And I dont doubt your credentials, Ive seen your vids, youre a much better player than I am. Im just saying that once an enemy is down to red bar in the game, they are no longer a threat. They are either instantly dead, or rapidly taken out of play.



Perhaps your Vanguard experience is coloring your perception a bit, because a VG pretty much has to finish the job once they charge in. But that doesnt mean that the Insanity is still not primarily about removing defenses so you can get the Reds off the field.



Regardless, I dont mean to derail your request...it would be good info to have.

[sinosleep]

LOL, I knew I should have clarified earlier. I posted my edit at the same time you posted what the edit would have addressed.

[Spyndel]

sinosleep wrote...

LOL, I knew I should have clarified earlier. I posted my edit at the same time you posted what the edit would have addressed.

*Reads Edit* . Oh, well then I agree in part. 

But I still feel the Insanity game is about stripping defences, as enemies cease being a meaningful threat once they are on their red bar.  AS far as pure gunplay, if crowd control didnt exist, then you're right, in a lot of situations you're going to be optimized to shoot away defences slightly quicker than health.

Whether it is any kind of *significant* difference, or whether that makes shredder ammo at all valuable in the game, is highly dubious though.

[thisisme8]

Spyndel wrote...

Generally, as soon as somethings red in my games, its floating helplessly in the air, being thrown off the map, being crushed like a tin can, being mind controlled, exploding in a warp detonation, being knocked senseless, etc. I usually only waste bullets on a Lieutenant level enemy once theyre in the red.

And I dont doubt your credentials, Ive seen your vids, youre a much better player than I am. Im just saying that once an enemy is down to red bar in the game, they are no longer a threat. They are either instantly dead, or rapidly taken out of play.

Perhaps your Vanguard experience is coloring your perception a bit, because a VG pretty much has to finish the job once they charge in. But that doesnt mean that the Insanity is still not primarily about removing defenses so you can get the Reds off the field.

Regardless, I dont mean to derail your request...it would be good info to have.

Spyndel, you are kind of proving his point.  When you say that once an enemy is in health they are floating in the air or etc etc...  You can only manage that by removing defenses.  No matter how you removed their defense, you were able to manipulate them easily in health with powers as opposed to shooting them.

Sinosleep is saying that it is prudent to use your weapons vs. defense since they have natural bonuses against them, and that way, your powers can be used to defeat them in health since you lose that bonus.

While his statement is 100% sound as it is, by proving that enemies carry 1:1 health:defense, he eliminates any argument against it.


Edit:  I guess I should point something out.  The big issue is not whether or not powers like Overload and Warp should not be used vs. defense, or at all.  The issue is limiting yourself in terms of party members, tactics, and cooldown management because of an irrational need to only use those methods to strip defense.  Will it make for more efficiency?  Will it create new ideas for builds?  Will it change how we use different team members?  These are all questions that can be asked if we just think outside of "Bring Samara/Thane or Miranda/Garrus."  "Save their powers for enemies with Shields."

Modifié par thisisme8, 27 février 2010 - 06:02 .

[Ackillez]

It's not so much that health is easy to finish off as it is about enemies without defenses being extremely vulnerable to a wide variety of status effects depending on your class, bonus power and squadmates. Ammo powers like inferno, disruptor and especially cryo and active powers like slam, reave, pull or concussive shot conspire to make unshielded enemies' life unpleasant. Shielded enemies are dangerous because noone except adepts can CC them, unshielded enemies aren't because there will likely be someone around with a power available to keep them under control.

As for the Geth I'll agree that it's a bit of a myth that their shields are so much tougher than their health, but then again the Geth have to live with AI hacking which you should have along at 2 of the three Geth missions.

Edit: I'm not sure what you're actually trying to prove here, or what manner of complaints you're adressing. When I see biotics user whine it is because their skillset is weighted towards CCing enemies without defenses, but the ability to do so is so widespread, basically all squadmates and classes can do it with ammo or activated powers.

Modifié par Ackillez, 27 février 2010 - 06:06 .

[thisisme8]

Ackillez wrote...

It's not so much that health is easy to finish off as it is about enemies without defenses being extremely vulnerable to a wide variety of status effects depending on your class, bonus power and squadmates. Ammo powers like inferno, disruptor and especially cryo and active powers like slam, reave, pull or concussive shot conspire to make unshielded enemies' life unpleasant. Shielded enemies are dangerous because noone except adepts can CC them, unshielded enemies aren't because there will likely be someone around with a power available to keep them under control.

As for the Geth I'll agree that it's a bit of a myth that their shields are so much tougher than their health, but then again the Geth have to live with AI hacking which you should have along at 2 of the three Geth missions.

Then this will blow your mind:  I used Shockwave and Inferno Grenade to keep shielded enemies under control.

[Ackillez]

thisisme8 wrote...

Ackillez wrote...

It's not so much that health is easy to finish off as it is about enemies without defenses being extremely vulnerable to a wide variety of status effects depending on your class, bonus power and squadmates. Ammo powers like inferno, disruptor and especially cryo and active powers like slam, reave, pull or concussive shot conspire to make unshielded enemies' life unpleasant. Shielded enemies are dangerous because noone except adepts can CC them, unshielded enemies aren't because there will likely be someone around with a power available to keep them under control.

As for the Geth I'll agree that it's a bit of a myth that their shields are so much tougher than their health, but then again the Geth have to live with AI hacking which you should have along at 2 of the three Geth missions.

Then this will blow your mind:  I used Shockwave and Inferno Grenade to keep shielded enemies under control.

Mmm, nice vid. I've also tried some shockwave spam while testing out the vanguard's skillset, and you're right that the stagger effect is actually useful, particularly because it hits through cover easily and has a short cooldown. But then the encounters you show aren't particularly hard- two enemies in close proximity. Throw in flanking enemies or charging Krogan and things get different.

[Spyndel]

thisisme8 wrote...

Spyndel, you are kind of proving his point. 

I read his edit, we are more or less on the same page now.

thisisme8 wrote...
Edit:  I guess I should point something out.  The big issue is not whether or not powers like Overload and Warp should not be used vs. defense, or at all.  The issue is limiting yourself in terms of party members, tactics, and cooldown management because of an irrational need to only use those methods to strip defense.  Will it make for more efficiency?  Will it create new ideas for builds?  Will it change how we use different team members?  These are all questions that can be asked if we just think outside of "Bring Samara/Thane or Miranda/Garrus."  "Save their powers for enemies with Shields."

Well, obviously theres more than one way to play the game.  You can build a party that moves though and just kills everything through maximum attrition, or you can use a team that has a potent one-two combo for *immediately* removing selected enemies strategically from the field, while I use gunplay to remove more foes, or more defences in the meantime.  I personally find the latter more useful (and fun) on Insanity, and in order to do that, I need access to those skills that instantly remove defenses.  I could rely solely on gunplay I suppose, but that seems slower and less surgical.