15 réponses à ce sujet

[weyrleader]

ME2 + (RPG – RP) = JUST ANOTHER SHOOTER!
 
I derived this particular formula after making the BIGGEST mistake; purchasing and playing Mass Effect 1 AFTER playing ME:2.  Here, I realized that the very essence of Bioware was stripped away, simplifying ME:2 to the point of embarrassment.  I thought that the idea of producing a sequel in the video game world was to “enhance” the original. Not strip the game of qualities that made the original so appealing.  Sure, ME:2 was prettier visually in some aspects, but must we lose all of the other qualities that made the original so fun to play?  Here is a wish list of what I feel needs to be brought back in ME:3’s creation.  Fell free to chime in with anything anybody might want to add:
 
1) Ability to converse with NPCs during missions. Even if it is just one-line banter, it’s still fun.
2) BRING BACK MY MAKO!! After 3 planet scans in ME:2, I literally start to drool, and my wife thinks I’m having a stroke.
3) Leveling and skill assignments need to be converted to ME: 1’s standards.  It makes me feel more in control of how I want to design my character.
4) Bring back the detail in weapon, armor, and other equipment assignments for self and NPC’s from ME:1, with the added qualities from ME:2.
 
These are just a few that have really stuck in my craw.  On a positive note, I think that the stories for both are SPECTACULAR, but I really think that they could have had a chance to make a game unlike any other, present or future.  I think that the old saying needs to be stated, with a slight modification:  If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it…..ENHANCE IT!

[Space Shot]

It's great that at least you appreciate the story but I have gripes with your gripes (sorry, but it's the internet.)

1. You can still converse with party members during missions. The difference now is that instead of some random one liner you have a context-specific remark that adds far more to the character than just "presidum is big!" "novaria is cold!" It would be nice if there was more of it but I would rather have quality over quantity, at least.

2. For one, planet scanning jokes aren't cool. If you managed to get through ME1's inventory system, you should have no problem with planet scanning.

Secondly, go read the front page of masseffect.com. Free DLC fixing the Mako issue at the end of March.

3. ME1=no control. It was a mess of redundant skills and needlessly graduated abilities that was hardly satisfactory. Just try playing an infiltrator between both games and you can get the gist as to why.

4. The detail was by in large meaningless. Far being from a customization system, you just applied the whatever armor and upgrades had the biggest numbers with little or even no consideration as to how you actually wanted to play the game. The same is especially true for weapons. Better to condense all the pointless cultter into a few general upgrades, armor pieces, and weapon powers and give some meaningful control to the player. What we have now could certainly be expanded, but for the purposes of the game it's wonderfully functional and probably doesn't need all that much attention for the next game.

And as for the old adage "if it ain't broke, don't fix it," it's wrong (even with a caveat.) Western civilization was built upon fixing things that weren't broken and it's the fundamental reason that you're sitting in a fabricated structure using a computer entertainment system built with synthetic components supplied with alternating current. Don't whine about it, because it's the basis for our entire society, even if it does lead to some questionable changes along the way.

Modifié par Space Shot, 27 février 2010 - 10:01 .

[Zhijn]

weyrleader wrote...

2) BRING BACK MY MAKO!! After 3 planet scans in ME:2, I literally start to drool, and my wife thinks I’m having a stroke.

Lol!! Brilliant.

I dont miss the Mako one bit, but i dont find the scanning fun either.

So i dont know, i just thought you phrased that well. xD

[ForceXev]

weyrleader wrote...

1) Ability to converse with NPCs during missions. Even if it is just one-line banter, it’s still fun.

I very rarely clicked on the NPCs during missions to hear their comments, so I didn't miss this in ME2.  They had that weird thing in ME1 where a character would make a noise like "hmm" if they had something interesting to say, which I thought was kinda silly.  I prefer the conversation "hotspot" thing they did in ME2.

Other Bioware games had you stop and carry on whole conversations with your henchmen at random in the middle of nowhere, which always felt really phony to me, so I don't want that.  It's like you're on your way to break into some enemy stronghold and you stop on some random stairwell and say something like, "So, Carth, tell me about your childhood."  Psh.

The important part of conversing with NPCs in ME is the conversations you have on the ship.  It is natural for characters to have conversations there, and I think they did enhance this very well in ME2.  The on-ship conversations in ME2 are more cinematic and more interesting (Mordin singing, nuff said).

weyrleader wrote...
2) BRING BACK MY MAKO!! After 3 planet scans in ME:2, I literally start to drool, and my wife thinks I’m having a stroke.

Personally, I can do without both of those things.  Bouncing around planets with that stupid mako was a chore.  It was very time consuming and extremely tedious when you had some huge mountain range between you and your destination.  If they bring it back, I want shorter distances to drive and flatter planets. 

Scanning planets is at least quicker, but I agree it's still tedious.  I think both of these things exist just to pad the total hours of playtime in the game.  I hope they do away with all of it in ME3.

weyrleader wrote...
3) Leveling and skill assignments need to be converted to ME: 1’s standards.  It makes me feel more in control of how I want to design my character.

I agree here.  They certainly did simplify character leveling a little too much.  I don't know what their motivation was to do that, I think the ME1 system was pretty good. 

weyrleader wrote...
4) Bring back the detail in weapon, armor, and other equipment assignments for self and NPC’s from ME:1, with the added qualities from ME:2.

The inventory in ME1 was the most panned aspect of that game.  So much useless junk to collect everywhere you go.  I prefer ME2 in this area, although I did miss picking up different armor and seeing how it looked on my femshep.  No sexy looking armor for my femshep in ME2.  Maybe a system that falls somewhere between ME1 and ME2 would be best.

I do agree that ME2 puts more emphasis on action than on RPG, but I think this is only a bad thing if you don't like action games.

[Throw_this_away]

Space Shot wrote...

It's great that at least you appreciate the story but I have gripes with your gripes (sorry, but it's the internet.)

1. You can still converse with party members during missions. The difference now is that instead of some random one liner you have a context-specific remark that adds far more to the character than just "presidum is big!" "novaria is cold!" It would be nice if there was more of it but I would rather have quality over quantity, at least.

2. For one, planet scanning jokes aren't cool. If you managed to get through ME1's inventory system, you should have no problem with planet scanning.

Secondly, go read the front page of masseffect.com. Free DLC fixing the Mako issue at the end of March.

3. ME1=no control. It was a mess of redundant skills and needlessly graduated abilities that was hardly satisfactory. Just try playing an infiltrator between both games and you can get the gist as to why.

4. The detail was by in large meaningless. Far being from a customization system, you just applied the whatever armor and upgrades had the biggest numbers with little or even no consideration as to how you actually wanted to play the game. The same is especially true for weapons. Better to condense all the pointless cultter into a few general upgrades, armor pieces, and weapon powers and give some meaningful control to the player. What we have now could certainly be expanded, but for the purposes of the game it's wonderfully functional and probably doesn't need all that much attention for the next game.

And as for the old adage "if it ain't broke, don't fix it," it's wrong (even with a caveat.) Western civilization was built upon fixing things that weren't broken and it's the fundamental reason that you're sitting in a fabricated structure using a computer entertainment system built with synthetic components supplied with alternating current. Don't whine about it, because it's the basis for our entire society, even if it does lead to some questionable changes along the way.

+1 on everything you said.  The item managment system, and holding 150 different weapons at once was annoying.  What is the point if the weapons you find scale up?  The developers made the right choice in ME2. 

I did 2 playthroughs of ME2 in a row (unheard of for me and games) after completing ME1 once.  I am considering playing ME1 again.... but shudder thinking of sidequests and Mako wandering.  

[Templar Lucas]

Responses.

1) Yeah, I sorta miss this too. Not all that important, it's just flavor text after all, but it'd be nice to have it back.

2) Let's not bring back the Mako. Let's also not bring back mineral scans. There's a way out there somewhere to make planet exploration fun, but it's neither of these. Maybe the upcoming Hammerhead will make some improvements.

3) Meh, never really had any issues with the ME2 skill system. You get points when you level up, and spend them on what you want. Seems like the player's pretty in control to me.

4) I pretty much hated the inventory system in ME1. Spending a mission lugging around a metric crapton of useless junk, sorting through them all to try and find one that is better by a margin of 1%, and then offloading or reducing the rest to omnigel was one of my least favorite aspects of the game.

[aliengmr1]

I did like how you could talk to your squadmates during the mission in ME1, but ME2 seems to have much more interesting NPC's, like the bartender on illium.

Im on the fence with the Mako. I didnt really have a problem with it, but I also find that I dont really miss it much.

I totally agree that the ME1 skill system was much better. Specifically how you leveled your Paragon/Renagade conversation options. Having that left you a bit more freedom to say what you wanted. In ME2 you really have to commit to either Paragon or Renagade.

That all said, my biggest gripes are with armor and weapons.

1. I really miss the toggle helmet function. I would take that over a new hover tank.

2. There is something terribly wrong when Jack can run around all but topless in the most hostile environments. Could we get an optional hazard suit for some of these characters? Don't even get me started on Miranda's high heels.

3. I can tolerate how you aquire weapons in ME2, but it would be a whole lot better if they were like armor and you could customize them.

The combat in ME2 is far superior to ME1. Especially the biotic powers.

[Pauravi]

ForceXev wrote...

weyrleader wrote...
3) Leveling and skill assignments need to be converted to ME: 1’s standards.  It makes me feel more in control of how I want to design my character.

I agree here.  They certainly did simplify character leveling a little too much.  I don't know what their motivation was to do that, I think the ME1 system was pretty good. 

Here is my take on that one.

First of all, I don't think the ME1 system was THAT good.  In ME1 a big chunk of skill points were spent on simply learning how to use your weapons. In ME2, you already know how to use your weapons -- you don't even have the option of being a soldier who can barely shoot a gun.  That is fine with me.  Another big chunk was the Charm/Intimidate skills.  Thank GAWD for that --  I hate sacrificing character effectiveness just to get all the dialogue options.  Some of the skills are also defunct -- for instance, medi-gel works differently now, so First Aid is useless.  You also don't need decryption or electronics to open every little thing now, so they were simply replaced with tech attacks like Overload.  And with Biotic skills, there are actually even more of them now, and they are all much more useful.  The only skills that are missing are those that provide static bonuses to things like damage protection and whatnot.  I don't think that is such a big loss.

Second, keep in mind the level 30 cap.  I believe that Bioware is purposely capping the number of skills and the amount of experience we can get so that they can do a direct character import into ME3.  It is very likely in ME3 that you will have more powers and skills to choose from, and quite a few more points to assign to them.

weyrleader wrote...
4) Bring back the detail in weapon, armor, and other equipment assignments for self and NPC’s from ME:1, with the added qualities from ME:2.

ME1 armor and weapons really only had 2 possible models just with different textures, and the only differences between any of them were how big the numbers were.  If you weren't using Spectre X and Colossus by the end of the game, you were simply sub-par.  If you ask me, ME2's equipment system is much better, as there is actual variety and choice.  There is really no choice in ME1 -- the thing with the biggest numbers is the only option.  Would I welcome more choices in weapons and armor and stuff in ME2?  Sure, of course.  But give it time, I am sure we will get more than a little bit in DLC.  Hell, they already gave us some for free.

[TheUnusualSuspect]

My 2c.

1.  Party Convo was fine for either ME1 or ME2.  Both worked.  A little more inter-party banter would've been nice though, like in DA:O

2.  Planet scanning sucks horribly.  It is more tedious than the Mako, although the Mako was horribly frustrating if only due to ridiculous landscapes and much needed resources sitting in incredibly hard to get to locations.  The tank fights with the Mako vs Thresher Maws were cool though, as were the tank fights vs Geth Collossi, so it did have some good points.  Rather than ripping vehicles out, they should've just stream-lined.  The Mako wasn't all bad, just some of the planet missions were bad with nigh impossible resources and very little else to look at.

3. Levelling in ME2 is too simplified.  I liked ME1's skill tree depth, but at times some of the skills did seem redundant, and 12 points to develop a power seemed a bit excessive.  ME2 tried to streamline it, but I personally think it's a case of stream-lining too far.  What I didn't like about ME2 was the "devastating 4th level powers" really didn't feel like much of a step up from 3rd level.

4.  The ME1 inventory clutter was legendary, and if you didn't remember to sell off almost all of your inventory before each mission, you'd bump into the limit cap.  It was clumsy with its lists, and had too many level increments, almost all of which were silly in their minor variations.  It was just clumsy clutter.  ME2 has gone too far the other way though.  No inventory, no items to find, no feeling of customisation of weapons, and the retarded ammo limiting feature.  I mean, thermal clips are SO SMALL (see end of Zaeed's loyalty mission), why can't I just carry a belt with 500 of the damn things?  As an Infiltrator with a specialised skill, the amount of frustrating ammo management meant much of the time I was firing an SMG rather than taking out enemies at a distance with stealth and sniper.  This is another example of ME2 going too far in the other direction.


Overall, ME1 was good, but suffered from a number of clumsy implementations.  The features were good in themselves, just that some of the weaker areas could've been streamlined.  ME2 didn't give us that though, it completely gutted the features entirely, and replaced them with utterly dumbed down over-simplified mechanisms that completely jarred with the first game's mechanics.

ME1 = cluttered and needless complex
ME2 = uncluttered and insultingly simple

Here's to hoping that ME3 can bring back the features of ME1 in a streamlined fashion, rather than gutting them entirely.

Modifié par TheUnusualSuspect, 27 février 2010 - 11:19 .

[ZennExile]

weyrleader wrote...

ME2 + (RPG – RP) = JUST ANOTHER SHOOTER!
 
I derived this particular formula after making the BIGGEST mistake; purchasing and playing Mass Effect 1 AFTER playing ME:2.  Here, I realized that the very essence of Bioware was stripped away, simplifying ME:2 to the point of embarrassment.  I thought that the idea of producing a sequel in the video game world was to “enhance” the original. Not strip the game of qualities that made the original so appealing.  Sure, ME:2 was prettier visually in some aspects, but must we lose all of the other qualities that made the original so fun to play?  Here is a wish list of what I feel needs to be brought back in ME:3’s creation.  Fell free to chime in with anything anybody might want to add:
 
1) Ability to converse with NPCs during missions. Even if it is just one-line banter, it’s still fun.
2) BRING BACK MY MAKO!! After 3 planet scans in ME:2, I literally start to drool, and my wife thinks I’m having a stroke.
3) Leveling and skill assignments need to be converted to ME: 1’s standards.  It makes me feel more in control of how I want to design my character.
4) Bring back the detail in weapon, armor, and other equipment assignments for self and NPC’s from ME:1, with the added qualities from ME:2.
 
These are just a few that have really stuck in my craw.  On a positive note, I think that the stories for both are SPECTACULAR, but I really think that they could have had a chance to make a game unlike any other, present or future.  I think that the old saying needs to be stated, with a slight modification:  If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it…..ENHANCE IT!

Yes to everything but spectacular story in ME2.  It was good.  The character min-stories were very good.  But the overall plot suffered to accomidate the character side stories.  And those stories weren't even tied back into the overall plot and in a few cases detracted from it entirely.  It was like a bunch of fantastic character bio's were stacked together and replaced the plot.  I can't really call that Spectacular.  It was a spectical of sorts though...

[varrikh]

1) Yes, I liked the one-liners, do I miss them though? There's nothing to miss, one-liners are back - hence the YouTube video in my signature. Meet Harbringer - my epic, totally awesome pal.



2) Mako, give me Mako, yes, I want the control system back, yes, I want the planet exploration back.

I mentioned it somewhere but... When you're exploring the planets, look at the sky, it seems so alien with say, 3 moons and a blue sun on a green'ish sky, plus red surface of the planet. Awesome, no? Of course, that's why - MAKO IS A MUST (or at least Hammerhead + a planet with awesome sky).



3) I did like the skill system in ME1 but just because of one thing, it gave me the feeling I was powerful. In ME2, your skills don't get to a level where you just pop Barrier or Immunity and slaughter everything in your way, oh no no. I liked that feeling, I got to the damn Ilos and I was ready, I had my Biotics or my Soldier skills were so powerful, that Saren could already start crying. Now it's far more balanced which makes game more challenging but I lack the feeling of power when you have that level 50-60.



4) Slightly more armors and weapons plus an option to toggle the helmet and of course ability to manage the armors of your squadies. I miss the upgrade slots, kinetic shields stat on the armor and stuff. Guess that's cause I play a lot of MMOs, gearscore sucks on a side note.

aliengmr1 wrote...

The combat in ME2 is far superior to ME1. Especially the biotic powers.

Okay now, turn on Insanity difficulty and tell me why the hell ARMOR breaks the gravity, seriously.

Biotics should work on armored targets. Would be far too easy to defeat some enemies but hey... you could just make their armor into their health... So why not?



I have just one serious problem with ME2, they killed the thing I loved the most in Liara T'Soni - her compassionate, caring character. Rest is pretty awesome.



Also, sir Isaac Newton is the deadliest SOB in the Galaxy.

[weyrleader]

Thanks for the feedback, all! Interesting and informative takes on my opinions. Glad I have some that share some of my opinions and others that are giving me a new perspective to chew on. I understand the need to "stream-line", but at what cost. I did see the new Hammerhead content coming available next month, so maybe that is a step in the right direction to settle the issue for on-world travels and planet scanning.



I do see positive aspects to ME:2. Don't get me wrong. The combat scenarios are far superior. Visually, I find it superior to ME:1. I would just like to see a few of the characteristics of ME:2 to be expanded. In addition, I think that we should have the ability to equip our party members in future ME chapters. I know that we all had a great time seeing Miranda and Jack jumping into the heat of battle with the Collectors wearing skin tight or next to nothing, but let's be SERIOUS! The Reapers are coming, for crying out loud!!!!! ))



As for the tedium of equipping the characters and filtering through the inventory system, I do suppose that it is a matter of personal preference. I, for one, happen to like it, and it makes me feel a little more in control of the game and characters I am building. Just feels more "real" to me. And I would much rather do that, than stare at a bullseye for hours on end.

[GuardianAngel470]

Did you guys know that you could deplete planets of resources in ME2? Before I beat ME2 and got 50000 of each resource i would scan planets by timezones. It took about 20 min but I could go from a Rich planet to a depleted planet, use like 40 probes per planet. Needless to say I don't do that anymore.



Oh, and I actually liked the armor management in ME1. It felt nice to be able to go into a firefight and completely destroy all the bad guys as a direct result of my exceptional looting skills. Having Colossus 10 armor on all my characters felt good.

[Maera Imrov]

I shall address them in order. Easiest for me.



1) Honestly, what my party had to say in ME1 wasn't that interesting. The little hotspots in ME2 were better, as was the commentary. I didn't mind this change.



2) I hated the Mako. It drove me nuts. In fact, I just avoided it after a point, unless it was necessary. It was a boring waste of my time driving all over the place trying to get to some stupid little bit of ore, or a Turian medal, or some other nonsense. Had nothing to do with anything. I'm all for exploration, but the Anomaly worlds let you do that in ME2.



3) Some skills in 1 were completely OP. Some builds were damn near invincible. It's somewhat more balanced now. Not to mention that there were just way too damn many, and way too much gating. I actually like the way it is now, oddly, though at first, I was similar in that I wanted ME1's system. 2 may have streamlined it a bit *too* much, but now I actually pay attention to/care about what my squadmates have for powers. I didn't give much of a damn in 1, I was tough enough alone. I wouldn't be opposed to a middle ground for 3 that's somewhere between 1 and 2 in this regard, though.



4) There was too *much* gear in ME1. Guns, armors, add ons, ammos, blah blah blah. Forget to sell junk? Too bad, you've hit the cap and now get to turn it into omni-gel, which is a waste of potential credits. Shepard's armors are still customizable and an 'inventory' to a point in 2. Your squadmates, no, but eh. I've actually gotten a bit tired of the whole 'lugging around an entire armory' thing in RPGs. I've been playing them since the NES days, but there comes a point where I just get sick of it. I guess that makes it not very RPG-ish, since that's always been a big part of RPGs, but for me, it freed me up to pay more attention to the story, and less on min-maxing and builds. I know some people love that stuff, but to me, it's always been a distraction from the story. And it almost always comes down to one or two pieces that you 'must' wear, and the rest are useless, which puts you right where you are in ME2, just with the illusion of choice.





Valid points, though, and I would like to put some armor on my squadmates, I do agree there. Almost all of them are terribly under-armored for combat. Jack especially, Thane less so, but still to a point.

[Niddy']

1. Get rid of Mission screens. I don't need a run down of what I just accomplished.

2. More dialog; After Jack finally makes her move and we have sex and finished off the collectors my next lines are the same as before she "still needs time to think"...

3. Give me more armor and weapons. So tired of using the same 4 guns over and over. Also don't upgrade my weapons for me. I'm not a kid; please, don't hold my hand while I play you.

4. Make Jack love my femshep =\\

Modifié par Niddy', 28 février 2010 - 06:36 .

[SmokePants]

weyrleader wrote...

1) Ability to converse with NPCs during missions. Even if it is just one-line banter, it’s still fun.
2) BRING BACK MY MAKO!! After 3 planet scans in ME:2, I literally start to drool, and my wife thinks I’m having a stroke.
3) Leveling and skill assignments need to be converted to ME: 1’s standards.  It makes me feel more in control of how I want to design my character.
4) Bring back the detail in weapon, armor, and other equipment assignments for self and NPC’s from ME:1, with the added qualities from ME:2.
 

1) I would have KILLED for squadmates being unclickable outside of camp in Dragon Age: Origins. They kept running right into my line of clicking and... whoops. Sten, I'm just as annoyed at this conversation as you are. Goodbye.

2) The Mako wasn't worth the effort it would have taken to fix. It was terrible at getting from A-B, it was terrible in a fight, It was only in there because of their wide open uncharted worlds design, which HAD to go. Whatever aspects that were salvageable (I can't think of anything), will hopefully be included in the Hammerhead DLC.

3) So, you enjoy the badass N7 marine that can't hit the broad side of a barn until you load up with points in accuracy? I'm not saying the ME2 system is perfect. I don't like how you can wind up with unspendable points if you don't build your character the one or two ways that allow you to spend them all. But the skills that were trimmed from the first game were superfluous garbage. Elegant design is identifying what is not necessary and removing it.

4) Again: superfluous garbage. They kept the ammo types, made them more meaningful, and allowed you to switch them on the fly. That's a win. The rest was just pointless tinkering. I DARE you to play a random save of ME1 for as long as you want, without peaking at the inventory, and tell me what mods and crap you have equipped. Other than ammo type, which, as I said, they kept because it was an idea worth keeping. The rest of it makes no discernable impact on your play experience.

ME2 is further down the evolutionary track that ME1 embarked upon. They were not going for a ponderous loot-fest that every anal-retentive progressionist would savor every moment of min-ing and max-ing bliss. They were going for slick, cinematic action. They just didn't know how to do it as well as they do now.