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Bioware templated stories are boring


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#26
meznaric

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Oawa wrote...

Huh? If a musicians music gets pirated, they don't get their royalties....how does that equal more money for the musicians?


The musicians get about 2% of the profit the publisher makes. They make most of their money through gigs. The more their music is pirated the more widely listened they get. Hence more gig attendees hence more money. This is much bigger issue for them than royalties. Take Radiohead, they made more money through an album they posted for FREE on their website and allowed people to make small donations to them. Most people likely donated less than $10 (some donated nothing). Yet they made far more than with any of their previous albums...

#27
DarthCaine

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Fallout 3 had a story?

#28
meznaric

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Nozybidaj wrote...

meznaric wrote...

Anyone else feel the same?


I think you are partly right.  One thing I noticed while playing ME2, BW games are really really boring when you can't empathize with the characters.  The one thing BW seems to do well is create great characters that pull you into the world and create connections for you the player and your PC avatar that make it all worthwhile.

In ME2 without these characters that I cared about I had no attachment to the game, the world, or Shepard.  It's all just a fairly boring backstory to create an illusionary sense of reason to shoot stuff.  Part of it is also the format for ME2, where the characters are the story, aside from that the "main" story was really weak.  If you can't connect to the characters the game is basically just a big filler episode in the trilogy without much of anything of importance happening.

So yes, I can see what you are saying though maybe for different reasons.


I agree with your point about the characters. Bioware does tend to create deeper characters and a sense of a team. This is their strong point, I suppose.

#29
meznaric

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Unwise Wisdom wrote...

I agree.

Also, becoming someone important early on in the game in order to save the world: Jedi, Grey Warden, Spectre.


Yeah, should have included that in the list...

#30
Obliterati

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Ah yes, "creative plots"...we have dismissed such claims.



I would say that BioWare and Bethesda both have backslid from their storytelling highs of Morrowind and KOTOR. Hard to say which one has fallen farther...further? Whatever.



*shrugs*



It's a disappearing art form, I guess. But I have hope. BioWare's got the character creation/development parts down cold, and that's the hard part. Hopefully ME3 will be a little less predictable and a lot less riddled with plot-holes.

#31
max_ai

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meznaric wrote...

max_ai wrote...

meznaric wrote...

ZennExile wrote...

Llandaryn wrote...


Bioware templated stories are boring


And yet you keep buying them.


Maybe he's one of the 20 thousand or so people who stole it?


Stole it? First of all, I don't consider piracy to be stealing. Second, I could not be on this forum if I had not bought the game.


You don't consider it such because (most probably) you haven't created anything of value yet...
Try it, it might change your point of view.


You likely do not realize that copyright laws are not in the interest of some of the creative industries. The people who make money out of copyright are publishers... For musicians, for instance, piracy is actually good. The more pirated their music is (regardless of how much they sell), the more money they make. So I think one seriously needs to ask themselves what is good here and who is stealing.


Hold your horses sir!
When I create something I'd want to get paid for it, unless I explicitly release it under some public license (which I do from time to time). HOWEVER, if I don't then you can assume I want to get paid.
If me getting paid is through a publisher (who BTW sponsors my projects) then so be it.
I don't think you're in a position to decide for others. Let the people who create stuff choose for themselves.

#32
meznaric

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cralexns wrote...

Now that you (indirectly) mention KOTOR, did you really find the plot twist in this game boring and/or unsurprising? I thought it was pretty awesome.

As for the recent games by Bioware, I would be inclined to agree that they're adhering more to a pattern than some of their older games but if you look around you will find patterns everywhere, like in movies or music..

Due to the economy no company can allow themselves to take much risk so it makes sense that they try to stay close to well-defined success models that cater to as wide an audience as possible.

Bioware is still my favourite game studio though and I will continue to worship them and throw my money at their titles. :D


I am also likely to buy ME3 and maybe some of their future games, too. But about the point about the economy. Other companies seem to manage to create more interesting stories without economic problems. I think Bioware should focus less on characters and more on the story. Maybe have a smaller number of characters in the game and more of twists and mystery.

As for the Kotor 1, I seriously think their games then were better than today (although they already showed the templatist tendency, if I can call it like that).

#33
Oawa

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meznaric wrote...

Oawa wrote...

Huh? If a musicians music gets pirated, they don't get their royalties....how does that equal more money for the musicians?


The musicians get about 2% of the profit the publisher makes. They make most of their money through gigs. The more their music is pirated the more widely listened they get. Hence more gig attendees hence more money. This is much bigger issue for them than royalties. Take Radiohead, they made more money through an album they posted for FREE on their website and allowed people to make small donations to them. Most people likely donated less than $10 (some donated nothing). Yet they made far more than with any of their previous albums...


I'm not surprised they made more money with that actually.  They totally cut out the middle men.  That however I think is a risk only a very well established band can make.

#34
Xandurpein

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It's been done before in many shape or form. Simplify something in the extreme so that you can prove that everything is the same, and then moan about writers being uncreative.



It's all about a hero's joureny. It's all about recuriting a team and then killing a boss. See how clever I am who unmasks those uncreative writers...



All I can say is... if it's somehow a formula, then it still works for me, probably because there is so much diversity possible within it, even if it was indeed some sort of formula, that it's still fresh to me...

#35
meznaric

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aaniadyen wrote...

meznaric wrote...

ZennExile wrote...

Llandaryn wrote...


Bioware templated stories are boring


And yet you keep buying them.


Maybe he's one of the 20 thousand or so people who stole it?


Stole it? First of all, I don't consider piracy to be stealing. Second, I could not be on this forum if I had not bought the game.


www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/piracy

Piracy is stealing.


Since when is a dictionary a source of authoritative moral judgement? Maybe we should use a Merriam Webster to find out if abortion is wrong? That would settle it once and for all... (this was sarcasm, just in case)

#36
aaniadyen

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Oawa wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

aaniadyen wrote...

If anything, I'd say they're at least better than Bethesda. Especially after Oblivion.


You sound kinda stupid. Oblivion and all Bethesda games are focused on the gameplay aspect of RPG's. Bioware is a story/character based game company. So don't make any more uninformed statements.


I hate to say it....but you totally seemed the miss the context of the discussion...This isn't an argument about who is the better dev, it's an argument about story telling specifically...

It's pretty obvious to me, the poster you quoted was arguing their position that Bioware was a better story teller than Bethesda, citing Oblivion as their last decent story.

Maybe I'm wrong on the last comment.


Naw, I more ment how Oblivion didn't have much of a story. It was the perfect example of how not to make an open ended game.

To stay on topic though, I somewhat agree that Dragon Age and Mass Effect (2 only) have had somewhat lackluster stories. What I do like that Bioware is doing is they've defined two new universes that are pretty unique and have a lot of potential. They are beginning to merge books with the games (codex) and that is something that I am a huge fan of. Bioware has made some good stories, hell, even in Dragon Age...the overall story wasn't all that great, but if you treat all the pre-landsmeet racial recruitment missions as serials, they had some really compelling story arcs. I don't think it's beyond Bioware to make good stories. I just think EA is forcing them to stick with things that are proven to work, so they need to do things like embed the good stories into a larger bland one (Recruitment missions in ME 2, anyone?)

#37
trigger2kill1

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meznaric wrote...

After playing multiple Bioware games, I realized that the story structure of Bioware is made on a template. It goes like this:

1) Start in the middle of action, with a few temporary members already there. Some of them will die.
2) The whole story is revealed. Your enemy is revealed and your target is revealed.
3) Find another team member (or kill/recruit another Jedi master, or find another Star Map, or go to another planet and kill everything moving)
4) Repeat 3
5) Repeat 3
6) Repeat 3
7) Repeat 3 as many more times as the development resources permit
8) Do the final big boss and finish the story revealed in 2

For the majority of the game one therefore knows what will happen until the end. This is why I am starting to get bored of Bioware games. Compare this to Fallout 3 (if you intend to play it  and haven't already these are going to be major SPOILERS):

1) Find out your dad is missing, without knowing why
2) Start getting hints of where your dad is
3) Find your dad and find out why he left
4) Help your dad fix the purifier
5) Enclave captures the purifier
6) Get the last important piece required to start the purifier before the assault can begin.
7) Get captured by Enclave and talk to the president
8) Find out what president wants and that enclave is divided. You get released.
9) Assault the purifier and activate it (no final boss)

Awesome story structure! Lots of new things happening all the time, and the story gets revealed as you collect more and more clues. The sense of mystery is great. In Bioware stories, there is not such a sense of mystery as regards the progression of a story within a SINGLE episode of the game (ME1 for example is a single episode). So one piece of advice I would give to Bioware is this: DROP THE TEMPLATE and be CREATIVE.

Anyone else feel the same?

...and still I am willing to bet that even though you were aware of this prior to purchasing this installment of bore no-one had to force you to buy it, you did it all on your own.  Prolly thanked the fella before you left the store too.
The prudent choice may well be to save your cash next time, and buy a box of lego brick.


#38
keginkc

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Using a Bethesda game as a template for storytelling.



Now I've seen everything.

#39
trigger2kill1

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dp

Modifié par trigger2kill1, 28 février 2010 - 12:00 .


#40
meznaric

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aaniadyen wrote...

Naw, I more ment how Oblivion didn't have much of a story. It was the perfect example of how not to make an open ended game.

To stay on topic though, I somewhat agree that Dragon Age and Mass Effect (2 only) have had somewhat lackluster stories. What I do like that Bioware is doing is they've defined two new universes that are pretty unique and have a lot of potential. They are beginning to merge books with the games (codex) and that is something that I am a huge fan of. Bioware has made some good stories, hell, even in Dragon Age...the overall story wasn't all that great, but if you treat all the pre-landsmeet racial recruitment missions as serials, they had some really compelling story arcs. I don't think it's beyond Bioware to make good stories. I just think EA is forcing them to stick with things that are proven to work, so they need to do things like embed the good stories into a larger bland one (Recruitment missions in ME 2, anyone?)


While this may be a good excuse, it is just that. An excuse. The stories still are like they are. And I totally disagree with your comment about Oblivion. The story has a mystery, the game has a sense of immersion Bioware has got to do a lot more to achieve and a sense of a really really large, dynamic and alive world. Of course it is very hard to do something like this with a sci-fi game where you can visit many different planets. But what I would have liked to see is more investigation into the cause of the disappearance. More of the detective work and mysteries to solve.

#41
Ackillez

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What you guys are looking for is probably this: gza.gameriot.com/content/images/orig_320200_1_1257581825.png

Also, just to chip in on the piracy debate, online piracy isn't theft per se, it is copyright infringement, ie an illegal reproduction of someone else's copyrighted material.

#42
TheUnusualSuspect

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With respect to ME1 vs Oblivion, the stories unfold in much the same manner. Finding out about Reapers was a pretty huge thing, and you really only discovered that for real on Virmire after talking to Sovereign, and that was almost at the end anyway.
ME2 suffers only due to the story being revealed in ME1, and there can't be a conclusion in ME2, because Mass Effect is a Trilogy.
If you've got a problem with ME2's story, that's fine, but ME1 did not really unfold according to this mythical template you're referring to.
Oh, and as for Oblivion, Oblivion really was a poor game compared to Morrowind.  MW far outshone Oblivion in terms of story.  In terms of memorable games for story and character immersion, ME1, MW, and Kotor2 sit at the top of my list.

Modifié par TheUnusualSuspect, 27 février 2010 - 11:56 .


#43
aaniadyen

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meznaric wrote...

aaniadyen wrote...

meznaric wrote...

ZennExile wrote...

Llandaryn wrote...


Bioware templated stories are boring


And yet you keep buying them.


Maybe he's one of the 20 thousand or so people who stole it?


Stole it? First of all, I don't consider piracy to be stealing. Second, I could not be on this forum if I had not bought the game.


www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/piracy

Piracy is stealing.


Since when is a dictionary a source of authoritative moral judgement? Maybe we should use a Merriam Webster to find out if abortion is wrong? That would settle it once and for all... (this was sarcasm, just in case)


Determining whether or not piracy is stealing is a matter of definition, not morals. You could argue that abortion being murder is a matter of definition as well, and it is. It is simply one that has no official definition because it is influenced by a lot of different things. Piracy equating to theft is a black and whate matter. If piracy wasn't theft, why would it be illegal? If piracy is justified, or right...that would be a moral issue.

#44
fusilero1

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Well, Bioware takes a simple structure and handles it magnificently.

#45
meznaric

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aaniadyen wrote...

Determining whether or not piracy is stealing is a matter of definition, not morals. You could argue that abortion being murder is a matter of definition as well, and it is. It is simply one that has no official definition because it is influenced by a lot of different things. Piracy equating to theft is a black and whate matter. If piracy wasn't theft, why would it be illegal? If piracy is justified, or right...that would be a moral issue.


Are you really so naive? Piracy is not illegal because politicians think it's stealing. It is illegal because it being illegal makes more money to the people supporting the election campaigns... And no, this is rarely a bunch of computer programmers (well, MS and some other large companies are exceptions, but arguably they have a larger marketing department than the software development).

#46
meznaric

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fusilero1 wrote...

Well, Bioware takes a simple structure and handles it magnificently.


Agreed, but don't you wish for some more mystery and surprising development? Take a look at that image posted above in a link. It makes exactly the point I am trying to make.

#47
aaniadyen

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meznaric wrote...

aaniadyen wrote...

Determining whether or not piracy is stealing is a matter of definition, not morals. You could argue that abortion being murder is a matter of definition as well, and it is. It is simply one that has no official definition because it is influenced by a lot of different things. Piracy equating to theft is a black and whate matter. If piracy wasn't theft, why would it be illegal? If piracy is justified, or right...that would be a moral issue.


Are you really so naive? Piracy is not illegal because politicians think it's stealing. It is illegal because it being illegal makes more money to the people supporting the election campaigns... And no, this is rarely a bunch of computer programmers (well, MS and some other large companies are exceptions, but arguably they have a larger marketing department than the software development).


-.- Maybe I left too much room in there for hippy bull**** to slip in. Let's pretend I didn't type that second to last sentence. Stealing is taking something which isn't offered without compensation. Piracy is exactly that.

#48
meznaric

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aaniadyen wrote...

meznaric wrote...

aaniadyen wrote...

Determining whether or not piracy is stealing is a matter of definition, not morals. You could argue that abortion being murder is a matter of definition as well, and it is. It is simply one that has no official definition because it is influenced by a lot of different things. Piracy equating to theft is a black and whate matter. If piracy wasn't theft, why would it be illegal? If piracy is justified, or right...that would be a moral issue.


Are you really so naive? Piracy is not illegal because politicians think it's stealing. It is illegal because it being illegal makes more money to the people supporting the election campaigns... And no, this is rarely a bunch of computer programmers (well, MS and some other large companies are exceptions, but arguably they have a larger marketing department than the software development).


-.- Maybe I left too much room in there for hippy bull**** to slip in. Let's pretend I didn't type that second to last sentence. Stealing is taking something which isn't offered without compensation. Piracy is exactly that.


OK, let's use your trick. Here is the definition of theft: http://www.merriam-w...ictionary/theft
Removing of property and depriving the owner of it. In the case of piracy, the owner is not deprived of his software. It is still there. Imagine, for example, that you have a device that can make a copy of any object in the world. Then you go to your neighbour's Rolls Royce and make a copy for yourself. Do you think your neighbour will come knocking on your door demanding his car back?

#49
TheUnusualSuspect

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meznaric wrote...

Are you really so naive? Piracy is not illegal because politicians think it's stealing. It is illegal because it being illegal makes more money to the people supporting the election campaigns... And no, this is rarely a bunch of computer programmers (well, MS and some other large companies are exceptions, but arguably they have a larger marketing department than the software development).

I'm a software engineer.  I write software for a living, for a large company.  Software piracy is property theft, pure and simple.  Some people like to think that because the property cannot be physically touched, that it doesn't properly qualify as theft, but in terms of lost income for the developers it impacts them with about as much equivalence as stealing money straight out of their wallets.

Arguing that the publishers and big corps make the majority of the money and the little guys don't get as much, and that makes it somehow justifiable to steal from the big corps is a totally facile argument.  The big corps re-use funds to pay for the development of new games.  New games and new software cost tens of millions of dollars, sometimes even hundreds of millions of dollars to get out the door.  Where does the pirater think that money comes from?  Certainly not from the pirate.

Trying to justify it as all one big conspiracy to rip everyone off is utterly retarded.  Yes, there are lobby groups to get politicians to take action to come down hard on piracy, and they do that because without the revenue from legitimate game and software sales, the future of the company, and the developers, goes down the toilet and everyone starts looking for a new job.

Inherently believing that piracy is justified is a wholly self-delusional argument, and shows that the individual who believes such is selfish beyond normal comprehension.  It ranks right up there with shoplifting and using the excuse that it's right because you're poor, and it's the shop's fault for making you want it so much.  It is so selfish and facile that it defies belief.

Edit:  Copying cars is a retarded argument.  You'd have to have paid for all the resources and labour to copy the car yourself.  The equivalent in that respect in a software sense would be writing the entire game yourself from scratch with only the storyline to go with (the car blueprints).  You're not just doing that though with piracy, you're stealing the entire kit and kaboodle, and not paying any money to anyone for anything.  It's theft.    If you can't afford it, don't buy it.  If you want it, buy it and give some money to those who helped bring the game to you so that they can continue to make more games in the future.

Modifié par TheUnusualSuspect, 28 février 2010 - 12:14 .


#50
trigger2kill1

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Ackillez wrote...

Also, just to chip in on the piracy debate, online piracy isn't theft per se, it is copyright infringement, ie an illegal reproduction of someone else's copyrighted material.

Theft of Intellectual Property (I.P.) is still theft.  You may be able to rationalize that form of theft but the police will still throw you in jail or levy fines in accordance to the law.
Theft is theft and while they don't usually try cases involving 1 or 2 "copyright infringements" I will remind you of the people that had their lives changed drastically with the napster fiasco! As you say they were only listening to songs?