186 réponses à ce sujet

[-D7-]

All stories have to have structure (intro, rising action, climax etc). Fiction (unlike real life) has to make sense or lead you from point to point. If you make a story to open ended the player could get/feel lost. Make it to linear and the player feels like they are just watching a movie (I remember the FMV game craze just after cd drives became available). The idea is to have original/unexpected plot twists, within the template(s) you may be using (this we could argue on all day). If you find Bioware's templates boring then don't play their games or make suggestions on how their templates could be used better rather than just gripe.

[trigger2kill1]

meznaric wrote...

After playing multiple Bioware games, I realized that the story structure of Bioware is made on a template. It goes like this:

1) Start in the middle of action, with a few temporary members already there. Some of them will die.
2) The whole story is revealed. Your enemy is revealed and your target is revealed.
3) Find another team member (or kill/recruit another Jedi master, or find another Star Map, or go to another planet and kill everything moving)
4) Repeat 3
5) Repeat 3
6) Repeat 3
7) Repeat 3 as many more times as the development resources permit
8) Do the final big boss and finish the story revealed in 2

For the majority of the game one therefore knows what will happen until the end. This is why I am starting to get bored of Bioware games. Compare this to Fallout 3 (if you intend to play it  and haven't already these are going to be major SPOILERS):

1) Find out your dad is missing, without knowing why
2) Start getting hints of where your dad is
3) Find your dad and find out why he left
4) Help your dad fix the purifier
5) Enclave captures the purifier
6) Get the last important piece required to start the purifier before the assault can begin.
7) Get captured by Enclave and talk to the president
8) Find out what president wants and that enclave is divided. You get released.
9) Assault the purifier and activate it (no final boss)

Awesome story structure! Lots of new things happening all the time, and the story gets revealed as you collect more and more clues. The sense of mystery is great. In Bioware stories, there is not such a sense of mystery as regards the progression of a story within a SINGLE episode of the game (ME1 for example is a single episode). So one piece of advice I would give to Bioware is this: DROP THE TEMPLATE and be CREATIVE.

Anyone else feel the same?

Oh sorry forgot to add...Is your icecream to cold too?

[Krogan Face]

    I agree with your point but not your comparison.   BW does create intresting characters and a vibrante univese very well, lets hope the story telling isnt far behinde theese 2 strengths..

Modifié par Krogan Face, 28 février 2010 - 12:30 .

[meznaric]

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...

meznaric wrote...

Are you really so naive? Piracy is not illegal because politicians think it's stealing. It is illegal because it being illegal makes more money to the people supporting the election campaigns... And no, this is rarely a bunch of computer programmers (well, MS and some other large companies are exceptions, but arguably they have a larger marketing department than the software development).

I'm a software engineer.  I write software for a living, for a large company.  Software piracy is property theft, pure and simple.  Some people like to think that because the property cannot be physically touched, that it doesn't properly qualify as theft, but in terms of lost income for the developers it impacts them with about as much equivalence as stealing money straight out of their wallets.

Arguing that the publishers and big corps make the majority of the money and the little guys don't get as much, and that makes it somehow justifiable to steal from the big corps is a totally facile argument.  The big corps re-use funds to pay for the development of new games.  New games and new software cost tens of millions of dollars, sometimes even hundreds of millions of dollars to get out the door.  Where does the pirater think that money comes from?  Certainly not from the pirate.

Trying to justify it as all one big conspiracy to rip everyone off is utterly retarded.  Yes, there are lobby groups to get politicians to take action to come down hard on piracy, and they do that because without the revenue from legitimate game and software sales, the future of the company, and the developers, goes down the toilet and everyone starts looking for a new job.

Inherently believing that piracy is justified is a wholly self-delusional argument, and shows that the individual who believes such is selfish beyond normal comprehension.  It ranks right up there with shoplifting and using the excuse that it's right because you're poort and it's the shop's fault for making you want it so much.  It is so selfish and facile that it defies belief.

This post if full of assumptions. Firstly, the assumption that the piracy actually hurts the pirated developer. Most of the people who pirate a piece of software/media would not have otherwise bought it. Having pirated it, it provides free marketing for the company, increasing sales without incurring any costs.

Secondly, without the piracy laws the big companies would be forced to adopt their business models to adopt to the changing technological innovation (the ability to copy information almost for free).

Thirdly, as to who makes money in these companies. A software development engineer in Microsoft makes between $40k and $130k (average being about $90k). Marketing communications manager makes between $90k and $180k (average being about $110k). I think this says it all.

[meznaric]

trigger2kill1 wrote...

Ackillez wrote...

Also, just to chip in on the piracy debate, online piracy isn't theft per se, it is copyright infringement, ie an illegal reproduction of someone else's copyrighted material.

Theft of Intellectual Property (I.P.) is still theft.  You may be able to rationalize that form of theft but the police will still throw you in jail or levy fines in accordance to the law.
Theft is theft and while they don't usually try cases involving 1 or 2 "copyright infringements" I will remind you of the people that had their lives changed drastically with the napster fiasco! As you say they were only listening to songs?

Not true. Piracy is not a criminal offence, it is treated under civil law. So no, you will not go to jail and the police will not press charges. You can be sued, though.

[meznaric]

-D7- wrote...

All stories have to have structure (intro, rising action, climax etc). Fiction (unlike real life) has to make sense or lead you from point to point. If you make a story to open ended the player could get/feel lost. Make it to linear and the player feels like they are just watching a movie (I remember the FMV game craze just after cd drives became available). The idea is to have original/unexpected plot twists, within the template(s) you may be using (this we could argue on all day). If you find Bioware's templates boring then don't play their games or make suggestions on how their templates could be used better rather than just gripe.

I AM making suggestions. I would like to see Bioware decrease the number of characters and include more of the detective gradual story revelation. In addition, the story should be deeper and with more twists and open ended possibilities. Decreasing the number of (main) characters is, in my opinion, a small price to pay for this.

[meznaric]

trigger2kill1 wrote...

Oh sorry forgot to add...Is your icecream to cold too?

I don't know why you are taking this personally. If you have a different opinion, you do. What's the big deal?

[Mnemnosyne]

meznaric wrote...

After playing multiple Bioware games, I realized that the story structure of Bioware is made on a template. It goes like this:

1) Start in the middle of action, with a few temporary members already there. Some of them will die.
2) The whole story is revealed. Your enemy is revealed and your target is revealed.
3) Find another team member (or kill/recruit another Jedi master, or find another Star Map, or go to another planet and kill everything moving)
4) Repeat 3
5) Repeat 3
6) Repeat 3
7) Repeat 3 as many more times as the development resources permit
8) Do the final big boss and finish the story revealed in 2

For the majority of the game one therefore knows what will happen until the end. This is why I am starting to get bored of Bioware games. Compare this to Fallout 3 (if you intend to play it  and haven't already these are going to be major SPOILERS):

1) Find out your dad is missing, without knowing why
2) Start getting hints of where your dad is
3) Find your dad and find out why he left
4) Help your dad fix the purifier
5) Enclave captures the purifier
6) Get the last important piece required to start the purifier before the assault can begin.
7) Get captured by Enclave and talk to the president
8) Find out what president wants and that enclave is divided. You get released.
9) Assault the purifier and activate it (no final boss)

Awesome story structure! Lots of new things happening all the time, and the story gets revealed as you collect more and more clues. The sense of mystery is great. In Bioware stories, there is not such a sense of mystery as regards the progression of a story within a SINGLE episode of the game (ME1 for example is a single episode). So one piece of advice I would give to Bioware is this: DROP THE TEMPLATE and be CREATIVE.

Anyone else feel the same?

If you had made a comparison to Fallout, or Fallout 2, it might not have seemed as silly, but in this case all I can do is point and laugh.

[TheUnusualSuspect]

meznaric wrote...

This post if full of assumptions. Firstly, the assumption that the piracy actually hurts the pirated developer. Most of the people who pirate a piece of software/media would not have otherwise bought it. Having pirated it, it provides free marketing for the company, increasing sales without incurring any costs.

Really?  You sure that they wouldn't buy it if they didn't have the oh-so-easy option of just pirating it?  Who's making  assumptions now?  Piracy is NOT free marketing.  That is an utterly idiotic comment.

Secondly, without the piracy laws the big companies would be forced to adopt their business models to adopt to the changing technological innovation (the ability to copy information almost for free).

...and how would they make money then?  Got any ideas there?  I'm sure the whole of the software development world would love to hear your wisdom on how they can put dinner on the table if they give up the fight and allow everyone to copy their software for free.  Perhaps you're in favor of software paid for wholly by in-game advertising?  Sure, that wouldn't be an immersion killer.

Thirdly, as to who makes money in these companies. A software development engineer in Microsoft makes between $40k and $130k (average being about $90k). Marketing communications manager makes between $90k and $180k (average being about $110k). I think this says it all.

...you forgot to mention that that's about 10x more engineers than marketing types, and the marketing types are there to front with the customers and figure out strategic direction on where to sink millions, or in MS's case, billions of dollars in development.  Or are you honestly saying that your whole basis for feeling that piracy is justified is that you don't agree with established company corporate structure out of sheer ignorance?  I'd love to see you defend that one in court.

[bjdbwea]

So what? There are some templates for successful story telling. If anything, in my opinion ME 2 has strayed too far from BioWare's proven methods. You can do that, if you come up with new ways that are better. Unfortunately, it didn't work in ME 2. It felt to me like a big step back as far as the crafting and presentation of the story is concerned. Better to stick with the "boring" concept from ME 1, KotoR etc.

[Xandurpein]

meznaric wrote...

This post if full of assumptions. Firstly, the assumption that the piracy actually hurts the pirated developer. Most of the people who pirate a piece of software/media would not have otherwise bought it. Having pirated it, it provides free marketing for the company, increasing sales without incurring any costs.

The only reason people who advocate piracy can get away with ridiculous arguments like that it that it is illegal. If piracy was legal, then of course everyone would do it, so no one would pay and the industry folds. Anyway you look at it piracy demands that someone else pays. If no one payed, no one would sell it. so piracy is just getting a free ride at others expense.

meznaric wrote...

Secondly, without the piracy laws the big companies would be forced to adopt their business models to adopt to the changing technological innovation (the ability to copy information almost for free).

Which proves nothing. If it was made legal to steal TVs from shops, I assume the electronics industry would have to adopt new business models too. That doesn't mean it's morally right to steal TVs.

meznaric wrote...

Thirdly, as to who makes money in these companies. A software development engineer in Microsoft makes between $40k and $130k (average being about $90k). Marketing communications manager makes between $90k and $180k (average being about $110k). I think this says it all.

Um... no. That doesn't prove a thing. The salary of a seamstress is probably lower than for a software engineer, but I bet big clothing chains pay their marketing people a lot too. Is it consequently right to steal clothes. Your argument proves nothing.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 28 février 2010 - 12:37 .

[Ackillez]

trigger2kill1 wrote...

Ackillez wrote...

Also, just to chip in on the piracy debate, online piracy isn't theft per se, it is copyright infringement, ie an illegal reproduction of someone else's copyrighted material.

Theft of Intellectual Property (I.P.) is still theft.  You may be able to rationalize that form of theft but the police will still throw you in jail or levy fines in accordance to the law.
Theft is theft and while they don't usually try cases involving 1 or 2 "copyright infringements" I will remind you of the people that had their lives changed drastically with the napster fiasco! As you say they were only listening to songs?

What are you, stupid? I never said or implied copyright infringement is legal. And it's not "theft of intellectual property" either. Even if I reproduce it it still belongs to you, unless I manage to hack the patent office or w/e the IP will remain safely in your possession.

I do remember the Napster fiasco though, my life was drstically changed because I could no longer get free music from the internets, it was no fun at all :(

[meznaric]

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...

meznaric wrote...

This post if full of assumptions. Firstly, the assumption that the piracy actually hurts the pirated developer. Most of the people who pirate a piece of software/media would not have otherwise bought it. Having pirated it, it provides free marketing for the company, increasing sales without incurring any costs.

Really?  You sure that they wouldn't buy it if they didn't have the oh-so-easy option of just pirating it?  Who's making  assumptions now?  Piracy is NOT free marketing.  That is an utterly idiotic comment.

Secondly, without the piracy laws the big companies would be forced to adopt their business models to adopt to the changing technological innovation (the ability to copy information almost for free).

...and how would they make money then?  Got any ideas there?  I'm sure the whole of the software development world would love to hear your wisdom on how they can put dinner on the table if they give up the fight and allow everyone to copy their software for free.  Perhaps you're in favor of software paid for wholly by in-game advertising?  Sure, that wouldn't be an immersion killer.

Thirdly, as to who makes money in these companies. A software development engineer in Microsoft makes between $40k and $130k (average being about $90k). Marketing communications manager makes between $90k and $180k (average being about $110k). I think this says it all.

...you forgot to mention that that's about 10x more engineers than marketing types, and the marketing types are there to front with the customers and figure out strategic direction on where to sink millions, or in MS's case, billions of dollars in development.  Or are you honestly saying that your whole basis for feeling that piracy is justified is that you don't agree with established company corporate structure out of sheer ignorance?  I'd love to see you defend that one in court.

Let's go through this one by one.

1) They already have an easy option of pirating. Open bit-torrent, download and there you go.  And you get the added bonus of not having to insert your disc whenever you are playing games ... Great.

2) Legalising piracy and still selling the games, as they do now, would not significantly decrease the sales. See (1). In addition, even people giving software away for free are making money. Just
look at the open source movement for example. I admit that certain
industries cannot use open source models because of various reasons but (1) still holds true for them.

3) Actually you are wrong about the headcount. Microsoft spends MORE money in TOTAL as well as PER HEAD on marketing than on software development... Check statistics.

[RighteousRage]

Lmao

implying that Fallout 3 had a good story

Fallout 1-2 is just Mad Max 2, and Fallout 3 is just that story template in an Oblivion mod

Fallout 3 is full of inconsistencies

Although I agree that all Bioware games follow the same sequence, but not the sequence you described

Modifié par RighteousRage, 28 février 2010 - 12:50 .

[meznaric]

Xandurpein wrote...

The only reason people who advocate piracy can get away with ridiculous arguments like that it that it is illegal. If piracy was legal, then of course everyone would do it, so no one would pay and the industry folds. Anyway you look at it piracy demands that someone else pays. If no one payed, no one would sell it. so piracy is just getting a free ride at others expense.

Did you do your homework? Research shows that most people who pirate software are NOT deterred by it being illegal. And in fact, those who pirate most software/music are also those who BUY most software music. If politicians are as informed as you are then no wonder we have such great lawmaking.

Xandurpein wrote...

Which proves nothing. If it was made legal to steal TVs from shops, I assume the electronics industry would have to adopt new business models too. That doesn't mean it's morally right to steal TVs.

You are conflating stealing with piracy. This is not true.

Xandurpein wrote...
Um... no. That doesn't prove a thing. The salary of a seamstress is probably lower than for a software engineer, but I bet big clothing chains pay their marketing people a lot too. Is it consequently right to steal clothes. Your argument proves nothing.

Here we conflating again. Property is a foundation of our society. Copyright is an artificial construct. It's my computer, I should be able to use it for whatever purposes I well damn desire, as long as I am not hurting anyone.

[meznaric]

RighteousRage wrote...

Lmao

implying that Fallout 3 had a good story

Fallout 1-2 is just Mad Max 2, and Fallout 3 is just that story template in an Oblivion mod

Fallout 3 is full of inconsistencies

Although I agree that all Bioware games follow the same sequence, but not the sequence you described

Whether you agree with the sequence or not, it is boring to have the same sequence over and over again.

[AM50]

Bioware > Bethesda

I have not played a Bioware game that I have not liked. The story follows in a linear fashion. There is nothing wrong with that. Not everything can be non-linear.

[Skilled Seeker]

Jade Empire didn't follow the template and that had a fantastic story. I really wish Bioware are working on a JE2 in secret.

[trigger2kill1]

meznaric wrote...

trigger2kill1 wrote...

Ackillez wrote...

Also, just to chip in on the piracy debate, online piracy isn't theft per se, it is copyright infringement, ie an illegal reproduction of someone else's copyrighted material.

Theft of Intellectual Property (I.P.) is still theft.  You may be able to rationalize that form of theft but the police will still throw you in jail or levy fines in accordance to the law.
Theft is theft and while they don't usually try cases involving 1 or 2 "copyright infringements" I will remind you of the people that had their lives changed drastically with the napster fiasco! As you say they were only listening to songs?

Not true. Piracy is not a criminal offence, it is treated under civil law. So no, you will not go to jail and the police will not press charges. You can be sued, though.

Just for the sake of arguement...

AGIPNEWS7666

14/10/2009 08:30 GMT
ag-IP-news
California Man Sentenced to Prison for Selling Pirated Software

WASHINGTON, DC - The Business Software Alliance (BSA) applauded the announcement by the US Department of Justice that Gregory Bambo, 47, of Richmond, CA, was sentenced to one year and one day in prison for criminal copyright infringement.
According to BSA, Bambo pled guilty to selling pirated software on the Internet that had been “cracked” – meaning that security devices were disabled, allowing for illegal copying.
From 2004 to 2007, the defendant downloaded and offered for sale more than 1,400 cracked software programs from 11 different BSA members with an estimated combined retail value of approximately $600,000. The software was then sold on DVD-R’s, a sure sign to consumers that what they just acquired was illegal.

Modifié par trigger2kill1, 28 février 2010 - 01:13 .

[jklinders]

ZennExile wrote...

meznaric wrote...

max_ai wrote...

meznaric wrote...

ZennExile wrote...

Llandaryn wrote...

Bioware templated stories are boring

And yet you keep buying them.

Maybe he's one of the 20 thousand or so people who stole it?

Stole it? First of all, I don't consider piracy to be stealing. Second, I could not be on this forum if I had not bought the game.

You don't consider it such because (most probably) you haven't created anything of value yet...
Try it, it might change your point of view.

You likely do not realize that copyright laws are not in the interest of some of the creative industries. The people who make money out of copyright are publishers... For musicians, for instance, piracy is actually good. The more pirated their music is (regardless of how much they sell), the more money they make. So I think one seriously needs to ask themselves what is good here and who is stealing.

True enough but the western gaming industry is controlled by publishers so stealing software has a very real and negative impact on development.

This,

Comparing game publishing and development to music publishing and development is just silly. It costs millions to produce an A-list title game these days as opposed to at most thousands for a 40  to 110 minute long music album. piracy hurts game development and by extention gamers. End of story.

[JediMB]

meznaric wrote...

3) Find another team member (or kill/recruit another Jedi master, or find another Star Map, or go to another planet and kill everything moving)
4) Repeat 3
5) Repeat 3
6) Repeat 3
7) Repeat 3 as many more times as the development resources permit

Going from one planet to another to finish a mission sort of comes with the territory of space-themed games, but if that's the game you want to play...

meznaric wrote...

2) Start getting hints of where your dad is
3) Find your dad and find out why he left
4) Help your dad fix the purifier
5) Enclave captures the purifier
6) Get the last important piece required to start the purifier before the assault can begin.
7) Get captured by Enclave and talk to the president

Fixing that for you:

2) Go to a place and finish mission objectives
3) Repeat 2
4) Repeat 2
5) Repeat 2
6) Repeat 2
7) Repeat 2

Modifié par JediMB, 28 février 2010 - 01:15 .

[max_ai]

meznaric wrote...
Let's go through this one by one.

1) They already have an easy option of pirating. Open bit-torrent, download and there you go.  And you get the added bonus of not having to insert your disc whenever you are playing games ... Great.

2) Legalising piracy and still selling the games, as they do now, would not significantly decrease the sales. See (1). In addition, even people giving software away for free are making money. Just
look at the open source movement for example. I admit that certain
industries cannot use open source models because of various reasons but (1) still holds true for them.

3) Actually you are wrong about the headcount. Microsoft spends MORE money in TOTAL as well as PER HEAD on marketing than on software development... Check statistics.

I'll hate myself for doing this, but...

1. I haven't inserted discs for the last few years. Gotta love them digital distributions. On topic, If person A(lice) is pirating something (and she wouldn't buy it either way), it doesn't mean that her friend (aka person B(ob)), who is a legit consumer wouldn't be dragged to do the same. And then we have E(ve) who has quietly listen to their conversation, and even if B was firm in his opinion and still wouldn't pirate, maybe E isn't. And don't let me get started on E's friends...

2. Let's get some things out of the way first.
"Open source" is not a movement.
"Open source" =/= "Free software" ("Free as in speech" =/= "Free as in beer")
What you basically want is "Free software" (free as in beer). While some people are eager to eat the FUD that RMS is feeding them, most (thankfully) don't. I myself release stuff to Public Domain, but I'd never side with ideology that postulates that all software should be free as in beer.
"Open source" on the other hand is a very good ideology, unfortunately, because of the piracy it will never evolve.

3. Don't know about MS, but in companies I worked for spend 10x money on marketing than on development. Hire 10x people for marketing than developers. BUT, dev's usually get 10x the salary of marketing (unless it some kind of big BOSS), and marketing gets the first cuts (see the last crisis).

[meznaric]

trigger2kill1 wrote...

meznaric wrote...

trigger2kill1 wrote...

Ackillez wrote...

Also, just to chip in on the piracy debate, online piracy isn't theft per se, it is copyright infringement, ie an illegal reproduction of someone else's copyrighted material.

Theft of Intellectual Property (I.P.) is still theft.  You may be able to rationalize that form of theft but the police will still throw you in jail or levy fines in accordance to the law.
Theft is theft and while they don't usually try cases involving 1 or 2 "copyright infringements" I will remind you of the people that had their lives changed drastically with the napster fiasco! As you say they were only listening to songs?

Not true. Piracy is not a criminal offence, it is treated under civil law. So no, you will not go to jail and the police will not press charges. You can be sued, though.

Just for the sake of arguement...

AGIPNEWS7666

14/10/2009 08:30 GMT
ag-IP-news
California Man Sentenced to Prison for Selling Pirated Software

WASHINGTON, DC - The Business Software Alliance (BSA) applauded the announcement by the US Department of Justice that Gregory Bambo, 47, of Richmond, CA, was sentenced to one year and one day in prison for criminal copyright infringement.
According to BSA, Bambo pled guilty to selling pirated software on the Internet that had been “cracked” – meaning that security devices were disabled, allowing for illegal copying.
From 2004 to 2007, the defendant downloaded and offered for sale more than 1,400 cracked software programs from 11 different BSA members with an estimated combined retail value of approximately $600,000. The software was then sold on DVD-R’s, a sure sign to consumers that what they just acquired was illegal.

That may be so in America, with draconian copyright laws. In Europe and most of the rest of the world, it is a matter for civil courts (and in fact was so in America until George Bush came around).

[jklinders]

meznaric wrote...

jklinders wrote...

This,

Comparing game publishing and development to music publishing and development is just silly. It costs millions to produce an A-list title game these days as opposed to at most thousands for a 40  to 110 minute long music album. piracy hurts game development and by extention gamers. End of story.

The idea that piracy hurts development, be it software or music, is a myth. Research shows that, in fact, without software piracy the revenue would have been LOWER. Thus, piracy actually HELPS software development. Check for instance this paper: http://www.bepress.c...l2/iss1/art11/ 

Software was not mentioned in that study. try again.

musicians at least can take advantage of the free publicity and make money of their tours.  Somehow I don't see Bioware doing a world Mass Effect live tour.

As an aside advocating piracy is a pretty good way to get a ban here, seeing as it is against the site rules and all....

[OfTheFaintSmile]

Ya I don't like when the enemy is revealed so soon, just look at an awesome game like Legend of Dragoon, an rpg for PS1 (spoilers ahead!)...



You think you are chasing this guy named Lloyd who is behind much trouble across the discs and continents until you get to the end and find out he is the good guy all along who's been using desperate means to kill the real bad guy (Wingly emperor Melbu Frahma who possessed the main character's dad, which we also don't find out until the very end!)



So all this time we think we've been chasing the same guy (and later Dart's dad) when they themselves are being manipulated and it is much more complex than that. Bioware should have at least done that to add a higher layer of depth and complexity