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Bioware templated stories are boring


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#151
Llandaryn

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meznaric wrote...

Llandaryn wrote...


Bioware templated stories are boring


And yet you keep buying them.


Well I used to find them fun at the time of Kotor 1 and 2. Maybe I was just younger and expected less sophistication from the story. The opinion that Bioware is good sort of stuck with me until quite recently when I started to realize that the stories are way too simple and not mysterious enough. Anyway, I am very likely to buy ME3 as well, simply because I want to know how the whole thing ends (which of course I have to give credit to Bioware for). Part of me hopes, though, that ME3 will have a less templated and more creative story structure.


Next time, why don't you just borrow the game off a friend, or go halves on it with a friend, then you'll only be half as disappointed. If you compare ME to older games like BG, IWD or PS:T then of course you're going to be disappointed, because those games set the bar. I doubt you'll be pleasantly surprised in ME3, though. Most likely you'll end up having to convince various species to help you in the war, DA:O style. Probably the most creative thing you'll have to do is choose between the geth and the quarians, destroying one to win the support of the other.

If you want a game with a good story, I can recommend the Broken Sword series, or something like Syberia, or Darkfall: The Journal.

Also, advocating piracy on a gaming forum is never a good idea. On forums I've frequented in the past, even stating that piracy isn't a bad thing is enough to get you permanently banned. Surprised the restrictions aren't tighter around here, but that's maybe because there's few mods/admins to police the boards.

#152
meznaric

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Llandaryn wrote...

meznaric wrote...

Llandaryn wrote...


Bioware templated stories are boring


And yet you keep buying them.


Well I used to find them fun at the time of Kotor 1 and 2. Maybe I was just younger and expected less sophistication from the story. The opinion that Bioware is good sort of stuck with me until quite recently when I started to realize that the stories are way too simple and not mysterious enough. Anyway, I am very likely to buy ME3 as well, simply because I want to know how the whole thing ends (which of course I have to give credit to Bioware for). Part of me hopes, though, that ME3 will have a less templated and more creative story structure.


Next time, why don't you just borrow the game off a friend, or go halves on it with a friend, then you'll only be half as disappointed. If you compare ME to older games like BG, IWD or PS:T then of course you're going to be disappointed, because those games set the bar. I doubt you'll be pleasantly surprised in ME3, though. Most likely you'll end up having to convince various species to help you in the war, DA:O style. Probably the most creative thing you'll have to do is choose between the geth and the quarians, destroying one to win the support of the other.

If you want a game with a good story, I can recommend the Broken Sword series, or something like Syberia, or Darkfall: The Journal.

Also, advocating piracy on a gaming forum is never a good idea. On forums I've frequented in the past, even stating that piracy isn't a bad thing is enough to get you permanently banned. Surprised the restrictions aren't tighter around here, but that's maybe because there's few mods/admins to police the boards.



Well thanks for the recommendations. I realize that advocating piracy is not popular with corps, but looks like I have not been banned yet so ...

Edit: Actually, scrap that. I just got banned from EA forums (though haven't posted anything there). Man that's crazy.

Edit2: The weird thing is, they say I violated their terms and contitions. But when I checked them out it does not say that I am not allowed to advocate my own political views (nothing about piracy specifically either). While they have the right to remove me from their forums, it seems their justification is wrong, because I did not violate their terms of use.

Modifié par meznaric, 28 février 2010 - 04:01 .


#153
meznaric

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Xandurpein wrote...

Revan312 wrote...

AM50 wrote...

Thats where we disagree. I agree DRM is stupid. And some of the measures are too drastic and make people want to pirate more. The AC2 thing is ridiculous and people will always pirate. I agree.

But the way I look at it, who the hell do you think you are where you are entitled to something everyone else has to buy? Whether it be music, games, software etc. Why should someone who feels "entitled" to something that people poured effort and time in to, get to download it without rewarding their hardwork? That's what frustrates me. What if you worked really hard on something and someone decided they are entitled to it and took it for free? Wouldn't that irritate you?

(When I use "you" in my rant, I do not mean you specifically, but rather a general rant to nobody's direction)


I'm not saying that people aren't entitled to their paycheck for something they create, what I'm saying is, that the further they go with their own "entitlement" attitude (DRM, copyright laws, intellectual property etc) the worse and worse the quality and relationship between the company and consumer heads.

Also, copyright laws specifically have stagnated so many industries it's not even funny.  From medical advancements to computer technology and beyond, all have been slowed way down because nobody is willing to share ANYTHING with one another.  These laws are new and the advancment of technology, literacy, music and enterprise were all based around "pirating" others achievments and progression.  Now, with the laws of today, a new medical advancment created by one company is horded by that company.  If they simply sit on it, what good does it do anyone, this has been an issue brought up many times before concerning bio-industries.

This same train of thought can be used for games/music/art/movies.  They stagnate, flow downhill in quality and fail to embrace creativity because everyones afraid of legal ramifications.  In the past, being innovative, clever and kind is what got you your money.  People respect others based on those elements and are willing to spend money on things they truly support.  As I said, treating the entire community like weasely thieves just doesn't get people on your side, and I don't see a problem with pirating a metallica song as they're d*cks about their own fan base and the fact that people just want to listen to them, even though they're stinking rich already.


Show me in what way the gaming/movie/music industry becomes better at producing artistic creations by piracy. Show me how strict DRM have prevented artists from being influenced by other.

The reason why people defend piracy is because technology has made it so easy to steal and get way with it. The moral treshhold is so low, because it's just one little click away. When it's so easy and virtually no risk of being detected it's too hard to resist, and then you start rationalizing it.

The whole crap about how it's those "already filthy rich" to complain is b*****t, as the same argument can be made to defend stealing anything else too.It all comes down to the fact that no one will make big production games like those Bioware does, if they don't get paid. They won't get paid if noone pays. So whoever steals the game is just expecting someone else to pay for it. Cars, hamburgers, t-shirts, they all are sold by big companies where big executives make a lot more money than you do, so then it's all right to steal from them? He has more money than I do, so it's OK for me to steal from him? "I think that only those who are richer than me should ever need to pay for a something." Don't you even see how egoistic that line of reason is?

Treating a whole community as 'weasly thieves' is the only way to make people wake up and realize what it is they are doing. It's not enough to just use technical defences, people need  to realize the morality of stealing someone else work too. Just as the police cannot sto  robbing stores with guns alone, the community needs to agree that just taking money from the store is wrong or there wouldn't be a store. And a community that doesn't pay isn't much of a fan base for those who need to get paid for their work either.


No, people defend piracy because we realize that people who pirate are the same people who buy most of the games, music etc. There are studies that you can find confirming this (use google scholar).

Another thing your moral standards are apparently not telling you is that copying does NOT equal stealing. When I copy a piece of software, the owner is not deprived of his piece. In fact, in order for me to copy it, the owner must have made it available to me to copy.

Now don't get me wrong, I am all in favour of supporting developers that make good games, which is why I buy the games I think are good (I bought both ME1 and ME2). But what you've yet to figure out is that piracy is not evil and is actually beneficial to the industry (as long as we are talking about end user P2P type of piracy and not large scale piracy operations handled by specialised organisations).

#154
Jaina Twoseas

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Has anyone posted this yet?

Image IPB

nevertheless... ME2 is great.

#155
meznaric

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Jaina Twoseas wrote...

Has anyone posted this yet?
nevertheless... ME2 is great.


Yap, people posted this. Pretty much what I tried to say. I like ME2 overall, I just wish the story in ME3 is more creative because I am getting bored of the structure. Eventually I will not want to spend money/time on Bioware games (and I imagine this holds true for some other people as well).

#156
Zemore

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Its called knowing your target audience. we love this filth!!!
the whole point of alot of Bioware games (well the more recent ones anyway i havent played a good few of the older ones) Is that its YOUR story you take out of it what you put in and how much your "emotionally" investing in the game.

my point? Dont like there games dont bloody buy them

Modifié par Zemore, 28 février 2010 - 04:10 .


#157
medlish

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I actually kind of agree with the OP. Too many people here think Bioware are story gods (and Bethesda stinks). I do find ME2 to be a good game with interesting characters and a well drawn world but the storyline is template. But that's probably Bioware's style and will never change.



And everyone who considers pirating stealing should think again. I don't consider pirating to be a good thing but it's nowhere near stealing. Stealing means activily removing something of the posession of somebody often involving violence. Pirating is no such thing.

#158
meznaric

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Zemore wrote...

Its called knowing your target audience.
the whole point of alot of Bioware games (well the more recent ones anyway i havent played a good few of the older ones) Is that its YOUR story you take out of it what you put in and how much your "emotionally" investing in the game.

my point? Dont like there games dont bloody buy them


So your point is basically "Offering constructive criticism is bad, you should just shut up and spend the money on other games and leave us alone." 

#159
smudboy

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I don't really care nor are against templates for stories. I just want the damn plot to make some meaningful sense outside of "we have a game, let's build a story out of it." It's a bloody sequel. I don't care if they follow the Hero's Journey or any other template. ME2's main plot was a ridiculous ball of holes that would score a letter grade of C at best in any respectable creative writing course.

#160
Vaenier

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ME2 didnt have a main plot. It was just an awsome bunch of randomly assorted missions. The game feels alot better when you treat it like this.

#161
meznaric

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Vaenier wrote...

ME2 didnt have a main plot. It was just an awsome bunch of randomly assorted missions. The game feels alot better when you treat it like this.


I think this is actually true. But then of  course it kind of feels like just another shooter. If you like shooters, you are likely to be happy with that...

#162
Zemore

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meznaric wrote...

Zemore wrote...

Its called knowing your target audience.
the whole point of alot of Bioware games (well the more recent ones anyway i havent played a good few of the older ones) Is that its YOUR story you take out of it what you put in and how much your "emotionally" investing in the game.

my point? Dont like there games dont bloody buy them


So your point is basically "Offering constructive criticism is bad, you should just shut up and spend the money on other games and leave us alone." 

If you want to ignore what i actually said yes? or does my bluntness hit a nerve? I gave my opinion it just seems a simple fact
You play 10 games and from the same creator you find all 10 games "Boring" yet you continue to buy more of the games that you see no change in the patterns rather than just enjoying the game.

If anything that seems to me to be saying to the game Manufacturers as "yeah keep up what your doing"

#163
Guest_Maviarab_*

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smudboy wrote...

I don't really care nor are against templates for stories. I just want the damn plot to make some meaningful sense outside of "we have a game, let's build a story out of it." It's a bloody sequel. I don't care if they follow the Hero's Journey or any other template. ME2's main plot was a ridiculous ball of holes that would score a letter grade of C at best in any respectable creative writing course.


Takes a wild guess that your not  a professional writer hmmm?

#164
Spinnazie

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Jaina Twoseas wrote...

Has anyone posted this yet?

Image IPB

nevertheless... ME2 is great.





You beat me to it. :unsure:

Nevertheless I still love every Bioware game I've played.

#165
The Happy One

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I like the story in ME1/ME2 but other BioWare games are pretty laughable where writing is concerned. Usually cool characters, but with a cliched and boring story.

#166
meznaric

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Zemore wrote...

meznaric wrote...

Zemore wrote...

Its called knowing your target audience.
the whole point of alot of Bioware games (well the more recent ones anyway i havent played a good few of the older ones) Is that its YOUR story you take out of it what you put in and how much your "emotionally" investing in the game.

my point? Dont like there games dont bloody buy them


So your point is basically "Offering constructive criticism is bad, you should just shut up and spend the money on other games and leave us alone." 

If you want to ignore what i actually said yes? or does my bluntness hit a nerve? I gave my opinion it just seems a simple fact
You play 10 games and from the same creator you find all 10 games "Boring" yet you continue to buy more of the games that you see no change in the patterns rather than just enjoying the game.

If anything that seems to me to be saying to the game Manufacturers as "yeah keep up what your doing"


Look, I used to like Bioware games. But the more of them I played the more boring they became and now I am at the point when I want to complain and hope that the next one is better. So I am likely to still buy ME3 even though I am not a huge fan of their story structure. But I would enjoy the game a lot more if the story structure WAS more creative.

#167
meznaric

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The Happy One wrote...

I like the story in ME1/ME2 but other BioWare games are pretty laughable where writing is concerned. Usually cool characters, but with a cliched and boring story.



I would honestly not mind if they had less characters or less deep characters but a less cliched story...

#168
Zemore

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meznaric wrote...

Look, I used to like Bioware games. But the more of them I played the more boring they became and now I am at the point when I want to complain and hope that the next one is better. So I am likely to still buy ME3 even though I am not a huge fan of their story structure. But I would enjoy the game a lot more if the story structure WAS more creative.

but thats what doesnt make sense " I used to like bioware games." that implies that you no longer like the games it seems silly to me to buy somthing that your saying you do not like it would be like me buying Rockband or somthing on those lines.

#169
meznaric

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Zemore wrote...

meznaric wrote...

Look, I used to like Bioware games. But the more of them I played the more boring they became and now I am at the point when I want to complain and hope that the next one is better. So I am likely to still buy ME3 even though I am not a huge fan of their story structure. But I would enjoy the game a lot more if the story structure WAS more creative.

but thats what doesnt make sense " I used to like bioware games." that implies that you no longer like the games it seems silly to me to buy somthing that your saying you do not like it would be like me buying Rockband or somthing on those lines.



The point is, you don't get bored of the template the first time you see it. It is a gradual effect. The more games that you play that are the same the more it seems, **** this is just another one of those. You know, just like the soap operas. You can watch a few and enjoy them, but eventually it gets old.

But as I said, maybe the next one won't be so bad. Let's hope so.

#170
dreman9999

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meznaric wrote...

ZennExile wrote...

Llandaryn wrote...


Bioware templated stories are boring


And yet you keep buying them.


Maybe he's one of the 20 thousand or so people who stole it?


Stole it? First of all, I don't consider piracy to be stealing. Second, I could not be on this forum if I had not bought the game.

Piracy is stealing.

#171
Zemore

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meznaric wrote...


The point is, you don't get bored of the template the first time you see it. It is a gradual effect. The more games that you play that are the same the more it seems, **** this is just another one of those. You know, just like the soap operas. You can watch a few and enjoy them, but eventually it gets old.

But as I said, maybe the next one won't be so bad. Let's hope so.

No no i get your point but thats what im getting at. if youve played through so many games that your no longer enjoying them but your still paying the money thats a sign theres interest in the games they are releasing. If ME1 never sold well there would be no ME2 and mabye they would try somthing different instead thats what im trying to get at if you continue to buy games you arent enjoying you encourge a release of more games you wont enjoy.

#172
meznaric

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Zemore wrote...

meznaric wrote...


The point is, you don't get bored of the template the first time you see it. It is a gradual effect. The more games that you play that are the same the more it seems, **** this is just another one of those. You know, just like the soap operas. You can watch a few and enjoy them, but eventually it gets old.

But as I said, maybe the next one won't be so bad. Let's hope so.

No no i get your point but thats what im getting at. if youve played through so many games that your no longer enjoying them but your still paying the money thats a sign theres interest in the games they are releasing. If ME1 never sold well there would be no ME2 and mabye they would try somthing different instead thats what im trying to get at if you continue to buy games you arent enjoying you encourge a release of more games you wont enjoy.


It's not that I don't enjoy the whole game, overall I would say I had a positive experience with ME1 and ME2. I just did not enjoy the story. And besides,  I think it's more constructive to provide criticism than to just say "f*** it, I am done with Bioware."

#173
Zemore

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meznaric wrote...

It's not that I don't enjoy the whole game, overall I would say I had a positive experience with ME1 and ME2. I just did not enjoy the story. And besides,  I think it's more constructive to provide criticism than to just say "f*** it, I am done with Bioware."


i do agree with that but i honestly dont expect the people who are writing  the stories scan this forum THAT much not to mention the profits speak more towards what people like than one post on a forum that they probrably arent watching.

#174
Revan312

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Xandurpein wrote...

Show me in what way the gaming/movie/music industry becomes better at producing artistic creations by piracy. Show me how strict DRM have prevented artists from being influenced by other.


Piracy shows there's a lack of respect, pure and simple.  That lack of respect is because developers or production houses don't have a good relationship with their customers.  Most pirates, as I've said ad nausium, are willing to spend money on products if they feel it's worth it.  I've downloaded a lot of music, when I find a bunch of songs I like from an artist I DO go out and buy the album as I feel they deserve support.  Same with games/movies.  Piracy forces innovation in an attempt to grab attention and favor.

Also I didn't mean DRM causes stagnation (DRM just shows a lack of trust towards the consumer), it's copyright laws.  In gaming it's the engines themselves.  You have to pay a ton of money to use UE3 or CryENGINE 3 or Source engine etc etc. If the use of those engines was reasonably priced we would see a lot more innovation in the gaming industry.  Most crap games use their own crap engine where 70% of their time and energy went because they couldn't afford one of the larger engines, making the game itself suffer because of time constraints.

The reason why people defend piracy is because technology has made it so easy to steal and get way with it. The moral treshhold is so low, because it's just one little click away. When it's so easy and virtually no risk of being detected it's too hard to resist, and then you start rationalizing it.


Wrong, your moral high horse is amazing.  Most things that are pirated are things that like I said are either not going to be bought in the first place, are ripped for testing purposes or someone feels they have already spent enough money on that company.  Any games I've ever downloaded were games I was never gonna buy anyway, so the dev never lost money. Testing purpose example is my friend who ripped Tracktion 3 because he loves to mash up music but he didn't know if the program was worth it, he used it for a while, saw it was what he needed and then bought the full version for the support that went with it.  For the final example, a guy I know from college bought an early version of photoshop at 650 bucks. Since then he's ripped each version that came out simply because he feels that 650 dollars is enough cash to cover many many versions of photoshop rather than one.  Upgrades cost something like 250 for a bunch of new minimal features, not worth the money in his opinion but he wants to stay up to date.

The whole crap about how it's those "already filthy rich" to complain is b*****t, as the same argument can be made to defend stealing anything else too.It all comes down to the fact that no one will make big production games like those Bioware does, if they don't get paid. They won't get paid if noone pays. So whoever steals the game is just expecting someone else to pay for it. Cars, hamburgers, t-shirts, they all are sold by big companies where big executives make a lot more money than you do, so then it's all right to steal from them? He has more money than I do, so it's OK for me to steal from him? "I think that only those who are richer than me should ever need to pay for a something." Don't you even see how egoistic that line of reason is?


I never said that people have a right to steal from the rich, what I was saying is that when the rich throw their wealth in your face, wealth that has been acquired by fan money, and then bit*h about pirates stealing from them and treat their fans like thieves it pisses people off.  The problem is they're rich because of consumer money and yet they don't trust those same consumers that made them rich.  Also, if they're making crappy products than it's their problem that nobody is willing to spend their own hard earned cash on their creations.  Piracy is a reflection of how the community and the society as a whole feels about the products being released and the people that release them.  Like with the NIN and Radiohead examples, they understand that you need to have the support of the fans in order to garner a wage.  Entertainment is about just that, entertainment, and when artists feel that it's their god given right to be paid no matter the circumstance or treatment of the community they're losing rationality and can't see that entertainment requires respect from the consumer to be profitable. None of us need movies or music or games so you have to be willing to innovate and spend the time grooming a relationship with the community, period.

Treating a whole community as 'weasly thieves' is the only way to make people wake up and realize what it is they are doing. It's not enough to just use technical defences, people need  to realize the morality of stealing someone else work too. Just as the police cannot sto  robbing stores with guns alone, the community needs to agree that just taking money from the store is wrong or there wouldn't be a store. And a community that doesn't pay isn't much of a fan base for those who need to get paid for their work either.


And the bolded is why the entire entertainment industry is failing and why piracy is sky rocketing.  As I said, we don't need any of this stuff, it's not food or water or shelter, it's there for fun. The more they treat us all like thieves the less and less we care about giving them money.  When the only communication a company has with it's consumer base is the monthly banning of pirate accounts and a release of information on new DRM features being implemented along with a statement that amounts to wagging a finger at it's community then people start losing any feeling of appreciation with said company.  

The biggest problem with all of this is that the industry feels that everyone should follow their way of thinking when in fact it's the opposite.  If you don't embrace and follow the trends of the society then your shooting yourself in the foot.  They need our money, we don't need their products.  When they act like the society is at fault and that they're the shining knights on white horses you create an atmosphere of contempt, especially when they're already rich, when they stomp out, buy out and squelch beginning level development and when they have an overall distasteful attitude toward the people that get them their paycheck.  The industry needs to change, the society doesn't...

Also one last thought.  Most people arn't rich, we don't have unlimited cash. The amount of media in relation to 30 years ago is astronomical yet the amount of cash available for spending on said media is about the same if not less than 30 years ago accounting for inflation.  The more media spreads out, the more the cash spreads out so it's no wonder that the industry on a per company bases is doing worse.  Money is thinning out as the landscape becomes larger.  I don't think file sharing pirates are saving a bunch of money therefor becoming rich.  The majority of P2P users don't have the cash to spend on vast amounts of media anyway.  The industry is just blinding themselves to how the world works at the moment and is making it worse on themselves as they raise prices and push harsher DRM on all of us in an attempt to recoup losses. Go with the flow, not against it.

#175
meznaric

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Zemore wrote...

meznaric wrote...

It's not that I don't enjoy the whole game, overall I would say I had a positive experience with ME1 and ME2. I just did not enjoy the story. And besides,  I think it's more constructive to provide criticism than to just say "f*** it, I am done with Bioware."


i do agree with that but i honestly dont expect the people who are writing  the stories scan this forum THAT much not to mention the profits speak more towards what people like than one post on a forum that they probrably arent watching.


Maybe. Still, if nothing changes, no harm done.