86 réponses à ce sujet

[SleeplessInSigil]

Arbiter Libera wrote...

You've shamed your hard working troll family. They have no son.

[Heyalrey]

SleeplessInSigil wrote...
KoTOR. 3.

Mass Effect. 4.

System Shock? 5. You need it.

1 hand. What else?

Vampire the Masquerade

...and the Diablo series really isn't Tolkein-esque at all, though I assume you'll claim "they use swords" and that makes it medieval.

[SleeplessInSigil]

odinn93 wrote...

Nobody really cares that WRPGs aren´t original. I sure as hell wouldn´t like to play a medieval fantasy game where I´m a fluffy rat trying to stop a six-legged pony by shooting cotton balls out of my mouth, or a futuristic RPG where I´m a balloon traveling across the galaxy in a shoebox and reaching FTL speeds by having a giant boot kick me in the right direction.

But you do like to play a fantasy involving effeminate facial-hairless tree-hugging men with pointy ears, bearded midgets living underground, and men-in-dresses waving wands, right? ★

Heyalrey wrote...

Vampire the Masquerade

...and the Diablo series really isn't Tolkein-esque at all, though I assume you'll claim "they use swords" and that makes it medieval.

6 & 7. Still not a lot.

Diablo somehow just barely escapes the mundane Medieval cliches... by being crazy, and random, enough. You know, like JRPGs.

Modifié par SleeplessInSigil, 28 février 2010 - 02:07 .

[Loerwyn]

Fallout. I'm going to keep saying it.

But why "Tolkienesque"? You are aware that Tolkien himself was not the God of Fantasy Originality that some people think he was, right?

Nibelungenlied is all that needs to be said.

[Chained_Creator]

Yeah, not buying this line of argument at all. D&D and Tolkein define the ****ing genre. It's hard to not draw from some of the father's of the genre.

What would Calculus (And Math in general) be without Leibniz and Newton? 

Modifié par Chained_Creator, 28 février 2010 - 02:04 .

[Armchairsquid]

SleeplessInSigil wrote...

odinn93 wrote...

Nobody really cares that WRPGs aren´t original. I sure as hell wouldn´t like to play a medieval fantasy game where I´m a fluffy rat trying to stop a six-legged pony by shooting cotton balls out of my mouth, or a futuristic RPG where I´m a balloon traveling across the galaxy in a shoebox and reaching FTL speeds by having a giant boot kick me in the right direction.

But you do like to play a fantasy involving effeminate facial-hairless tree-hugging men with pointy ears, bearded midgets living underground, and men-in-dresses waiving wands, right? ★

i enjoy waring a dress while waving my wand around

[odinn93]

SleeplessInSigil wrote...

odinn93 wrote...

Nobody really cares that WRPGs aren´t original. I sure as hell wouldn´t like to play a medieval fantasy game where I´m a fluffy rat trying to stop a six-legged pony by shooting cotton balls out of my mouth, or a futuristic RPG where I´m a balloon traveling across the galaxy in a shoebox and reaching FTL speeds by having a giant boot kick me in the right direction.

But you do like to play a fantasy involving effeminate facial-hairless tree-hugging men with pointy ears, bearded midgets living underground, and men-in-dresses waiving wands, right? ★

As long as they have eyes and ears (and don´t spew cotton balls), I´m happy

[odinn93]

Chained_Creator wrote...

Yeah, not buying this line of argument at all. D&D and Tolkein define the ****ing genre. It's hard to not draw from some of the father's of the genre.

What would Calculus (And Math in general) be without Leibniz and Newton? 

I agree

[Arbiter Libera]

SleeplessInSigil wrote...

Arbiter Libera wrote...

You've shamed your hard working troll family. They have no son.

I forgot to add a smile there so I'm glad you didn't take that... umm, seriously?

OnlyShallow89 wrote...

Fallout. I'm going to keep saying it.
But
why "Tolkienesque"? You are aware that Tolkien himself was not the God
of Fantasy Originality that some people think he was, right?
Nibelungenlied is all that needs to be said.

Poor Tolkien. I'll always keep saying that fantasy cliches (Elves being master arches, for example) would've been at least somewhat subverted if not outright different had Silmarillion been released first of his books. You know, the one book where Elves are just freaking badasses and not some "oh, woe is me" poetic tree huggers.

Modifié par Arbiter Libera, 28 février 2010 - 02:10 .

[SleeplessInSigil]

OnlyShallow89 wrote...

Fallout. I'm going to keep saying it.
But why "Tolkienesque"? You are aware that Tolkien himself was not the God of Fantasy Originality that some people think he was, right?
Nibelungenlied is all that needs to be said.

I love Fallout. <3

and sadly, very few WRPGs (with the exception of the excellent King's Quest and Quest for Glory series, if you consider those RPGs) follow the actual roots of Western folklore instead of what Tolkien wrote about in his books (namely the currently set-in-stone stereotypes of Elves & Dwarves etcetera.)

[Loerwyn]

I won't deny Tolkien's influence on fantasy, especially regarding certain stereotypes (Dwarves and Elves for one), but I won't accept that he is the most original fantasy author of all time. A lot of his work is, in some way, inspired by Scandinavian and Germanic mythology (such as Nibelungenlied and possibly Beowulf).

[SleeplessInSigil]

Arbiter Libera wrote...

had Silmarillion been released first of his books. You know, the one book where Elves are just freaking badasses and not some "oh, woe is me" poetic tree huggers.

+1. ★★★★★

Respect.
Fingolfin alone could defeat an entire Blight and the Archdemon AND make love to Morrigan AND Leliana AND Shale all in the same night.

Modifié par SleeplessInSigil, 28 février 2010 - 02:42 .

[Curuniel]

As has been said/impled, Tolkien synthesised from a lot of myth and various European cultures in creating his world(s), he didn't make up something everyone copied. I think it is a pity that Elves/Human/Dwarves/Orcs has become THE template that makes something fantasy, but it is a bit that way. Morrowind/Elder Scrolls is a good example of how traditional forms like 'Dark Elves, Wood Elves, High Elves' can be used in somewhat interesting ways.



I'm certain that JRPGs work off myth and folklore as well, they just tend to use different sources. On either side the stories tend to fit the same formulae; so what? Both have their ridiculous suspension-of-disbelief conventions and the fans suspend their disbelief accordingly.

[Fexelea]

^ So true.



I wrote about it in page 1 and it got roundly ignored. You know, a balanced approach is just boring. You must be against one and one of them must be ludicrous, it seems.

[Baracuda6977]

Tolkien wrote about free will, in a 'simple fantasy world', his story was amazing and as such his world was lumped in with it



oh, and WRPGs pull from western lore while JRPGs pull from japanese lore....



how has no one mentioned that JRPGs tend to be sci-fi and mixed tech while WRPGs are midievil + magic? when a WRPG writer goes, i need to make an enemy, an orc pops in mind, while JRPGs think of crazy mutants and mechs, basically the same but drawn differently while orcs are drawn at greater detail instead



(the crazy belts are a joke at this point i think, look at no more heroes 2)

[SleeplessInSigil]

Fexelea wrote...

I wrote about it in page 1 and it got roundly ignored.

This is the Internets. Kindly leave any calm and fair outlooks outside.

[AmstradHero]

So all WRPGs are the same and effectively based on Tolkien/D&D... except for the half a dozen or so that have been listed already as not falling into this category?

Hey, I can do this too.  All JRPGs are cyberpunk style games where you've
got a sci-fi setting but people going around with colossally oversized
swords and the characters are typically underage but dress like
prostitutes.

I find JRPGs boring. The plots might be original (and even then I wouldn't always agree with that), but it doesn't excuse the fact that so many of them are ridiculous or near incoherent.  And the turn based combat just makes me yawn.

Besides, just because a game takes particular ideas, it doesn't mean it can't use them in new ways.  Compare elves in Tolkien, Dragon Age and Morrowind/Oblivion.  They're quite a bit a different in all three cases.  Sure, they've all got pointy ears and live longer than humans, but their role within the world is significantly different.

You like JRPGs? Fine. But it could quite easily be argued that they're equally as derivative and cookie-cutter as you claim WRPGs to be. There's creativity (and lack of) that can be identified in both camps.

[SleeplessInSigil]

AmstradHero wrote...

You like JRPGs? Fine. But it could quite easily be argued that they're equally as derivative and cookie-cutter as you claim WRPGs to be. There's creativity (and lack of) that can be identified in both camps.

That's just what I'm pointing out. I clearly like WRPGs too, but it irks me to see people who won't open up to new venues of art citing flaws that exist in their favorites as well.



Also, I agree with "The Lost Art of Keeping a Journal" on your e-diary. I really miss that myself in recent WRPGs. Another victim of dumbing games down for the consoles.

[Fexelea]

Don't blame the consoles for developer lazyness

[I Valente I]

Ironically, the same defenses are being used to defen WRPGs as are used to defend JRPGs:

"who cares if they're not original"..."x games is different, x game is different."



I agree with the OP. The JRPG bashing here bores me, it's just as repetitive and unoriginal as what they claim jrpgs are. Western games have the same flaws but in different ways....to take one side(western) and hate the other(eastern) simply for doing what is standard for that genre is sad really.

[Noilly Prat]

 The topic creator's point is well taken, though there's nothing particularly new about that argument, either.

Still, almost every JRPG I've played has relied on similar story devices and setting archetypes. Go ahead and say I've been playing the wrong ones, but my point is that the same exact argument applies equally to both Western and Japanese RPGs. Just as there are exceptions that have been pointed out in this topic (and many other that haven't yet been mentioned, most likely), there are plenty of exceptions to the general rule that JRPGs have to feature androgynous teenagers as protagonists and variations on the same concepts of magic or magical technology or you see what I'm getting at.

I don't think that BioWare's games are the most outrageously original things I've ever seen, but I love them. I don't love all WRPGs. I also love Skies of Arcadia and Xenogears, but I really hate the Tales series, as it perfectly encapsulates everything I dislike about JRPGs. (As for why I've played more than one of them... I guess you could say I love to hate them.)

[drunken pyromaniac]

SleeplessInSigil wrote...

drunken pyromaniac wrote...

Fallout, Mass Effect, Jade Empire, Morrowind all have little to no references to Tolkien in them; WRPGs all.

Morrowind, The Elder Scrolls; heavily Medieval-European themes. with Elves. Tolkien.

Jade Empire; a WRPG based around stereotypical Western views of the "East."

Okay , I can give you Jade Empire but Morrowind? For God's sake there are wizards who live in mushrooms, people who live in and make armor out of bug shells, and a wide mythology of gods and heroes who have absolutely no relation to medievel European mythology. Maybe you're thinking of Oblivion,(which I can give you is incredibly fairy-tale like) but Morrowind is one of the most original video games in a decade.

[MerinTB]

Without reading past the OP's opening statement:

How many WRPGs are there that are NOT based off Tolkienesque and/or
Medieval-European themes?

Are there ANY Fantasy-WRPGs that do NOT
have Elves and Dwarves and Orcs and Dragons or some thinly-veiled
variation thereof?

Is there ANY WRPG system that does not draw a substantial influence from Dungeons & Dragons?

Chronologically?

Space, Ali Baba and the Forty Thieves, Return of Heracles, SunDog: Frozen Legacy, Autoduel, Starflight, 2400 AD, Battletech: The Crescent Hawks Inception, Sentinel Worlds I: Future Magic, Wasteland, 2088: The Cryllan Mission, Castle of the Winds, Centauri Alliance...
that's all before 1990.
More recent examples?
Fallout 3, Mass Effect 1&2, Titan Quest, Jade Empire, Jagged Alliance 2, Marvel Ultimate Alliance 1 & 2, Deus Ex 1 & 2, Hunter games, the two Vampire the Masqurade games...

you paint a wide brush with the no Tolkien/no D&D/no Medieval- European themes.
But Fantasy includes Horror and Science-Fiction by most defintions, but even if you cut out the obviously sci-fi RPGs, there are still plenty in the lists I gave you above.

Your artificial constructs to try and claim there's no originality in Western CRPGs is based on a false premise.  It'd be like tryting to say "show me the creativity with FPS - show me ones that are NOT FUTURISTIC and are not based on a historical war from the past century!" - and while that can be done, you are basically eliminating a large portion of what makes the genre and claiming that genre tropes equal being unoriginal.

I can appreciate the frustration with those attacking JRPGs out of sheer malice - it bugs me, too - but this thread was wrong from the start.

[Sloth Of Doom]

I can attack a genre with a giant paintbrush (as Merin calls it....I like that description) as well, watch!



Name a JRPG that doesn't have people with stupid hair and/or smeone under 18 as one of the main characters.



Now, if you want to have a rational discussion, lets start over.

[Fexelea]

Whilst I love MUA 1 and 2 like any decent Marvel fan would, they really don't quite make it into the rpg bag.



And yes, the OP was being absurd, which makes make a point about how absurd the anti Jrpg claims are.