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Disappointment With Mass Effect 2? An Open Discussion.


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#2601
tonnactus

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KitsuneRommel wrote...

tonnactus wrote...

Only Tali and Garrus are the right ones for this missions,both with sabotage.

I just imagine this mission with the horrible Mass Effect 2 combat system. Drones have only shields. Sabotageworks only when enemies are down to health. That make hacking impossible too.
The room full of rocket drones will be different to handle without leaving the builiding.


Well I did it with Ashley and Tali. AI Hacking would be better if your teammates stopped shooting at the hacked drones unless you ordered them to. What made that mission really fun was how all my powers were useless against the drones.


???

Warp works against Drones in Mass Effect too.The Mass Effect 2 Vanguard has no tools against drones because he didnt have warp what is a real bad joke. A offensive "biotic" without a direct damaging biotic ability.This made sense.

#2602
bjdbwea

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KitsuneRommel wrote...

Sorry but that's not going to happen. Mass Effect is mainly a console game and it will have a console control system. A real PC version would not have console style menus, console style conversation wheel, etc.


No, that is not necessary. ME 1 was a console game ported to PC too. Not even by BioWare, curiously enough, but by Demiurge. Some said it was badly done, but I don't agree. At least it provided the basics, like hotkeys and proper configuration of keys. But BioWare wanted to do it themselves for ME 2, apparently to make it even better. Guess what, it's worse.

KitsuneRommel wrote...

You know what was challenging? Operation Flashpoint. Missions could easily take an hour or more and in the end you could get killed by a single rifle shot. A little infuriating at times but at least it forced you to play carefully.


You got that right. Great game, and the second add-on even had a fantastic story. And that was challenging combat indeed, in three dimensions and with proper AI. Not pew-pew, like in ME 2. If the constant complaining from the shooter fans would at least have pushed the combat in a more realistic and challenging direction, it wouldn't have been that bad. But in fact even combat in ME 2 was dumbed down.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 23 mai 2010 - 11:25 .


#2603
Arwyl

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KitsuneRommel wrote...

Am I the only one who thought that having a map was silly? "Hmm where to go now... I know. Just check the map!" It felt too much like those questhelpers in MMOs. 


Having a map is silly if there is just one way you can go, like in a lot of ME 2. But in ME, most of the time, you were actually free to choose where to go and what to do first, with very few exceptions. You were also free to retrace your steps and visit places you had already been to, if you felt you had missed something or if you just wanted to see those places again for some reason. I liked that freedom. And when you're free to move around, and the areas are so huge, a map comes in very handy. I use those in real life too, when I need to go somewhere I've never been before.

I've never played MMO's, so I don't know what their questhelpers are like.

 

Really. ME1 is FULL of loading screens too not to mention those annoying "loading" pauses every 50 meters in citadel. I agree that the mission complete screen was pretty stupid idea.


The loading pauses didn't completely take you out of the world by showing you some bright coloured animation. They just froze your screen for a moment. Yes, I prefered those. As I preferred the mass relay and FTL Normandy loading screens, which only came up when you were traveling or returning to the Normandy with the Mako.

Elevator rides always come up in these discussions... Just visited the citadel again to buy some new liceses. Do you want to guess how many times I got squad banter this time? Zero. Every time it was a newscast that I had already heard or it was about something I just had done 1 hour earlier.  Besides unless you are a masochist and never use mass transit you will have loading screens and lots of them.


I use fast transit sometimes. And I agree with you that this could have been done better, with an elevator-like cinematic sequence of Shepard & co in the shuttle, like it's done in ME 2 when you "drive" to the locations of some of the loyalty quests. I would have prefered that to the loading screens.
 

It just becomes pointless really fast. Now after I've got my Spectre weapons I just sell all my weapon drops without a second though. I do the same with armor too since for some reason you can only compare them to your (or your group's) gear meaning you either write down all your squadmates gear or run back and forth between the lockers and the merchant. The only thing I check is if I have gotten better armor or weapon mods. That's it.


Lol... I actually do that. Posted Image I mean, writing down stats and running back and forth between the lockers and the merchant. Yes, it gets annoying and yes, I wish there was an easier way of doing that, like being able to check in a PDA or something what gear your squadmates were using. That would have been great.

#2604
tonnactus

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Lumikki wrote...

Actually they don't play that differently.


That most biotics and tech dont work if enemies are shielded or armored is not different???
Yes,for players that almost play the soldier the game doesnt feel different,thats right.
And the silly small range of biotics and techs?not even the curving thing is a real improvement.I could lift enemies out of cover in the first game when i just target the ground.

Modifié par tonnactus, 23 mai 2010 - 11:29 .


#2605
Terror_K

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bjdbwea wrote...

KitsuneRommel wrote...

Sorry but that's not going to happen. Mass Effect is mainly a console game and it will have a console control system. A real PC version would not have console style menus, console style conversation wheel, etc.


No, that is not necessary. ME 1 was a console game ported to PC too. Not even by BioWare, curiously enough, but by Demiurge. Some said it was badly done, but I don't agree. At least it provided the basics, like hotkeys and proper configuration of keys. But BioWare wanted to do it themselves for ME 2, apparently to make it even better. Guess what, it's worse.


Demiurge's conversion of ME1 was better than the ME2 PC version when it came to improved features and functionality, but was filled to the brim with bugs, errors, tended to not like running on PC's unless everything was just right, and needed many .ini tweaks to get the best out of it (which would tend to randomly reset now and then). ME2 is smoother and less buggy by far, but has next to no additional PC features, doesn't fully take advantage of the medium and really does feel more like a straight port than a proper conversion.

#2606
KitsuneRommel

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tonnactus wrote...

Warp works against Drones in Mass Effect too.The Mass Effect 2 Vanguard has no tools against drones because he didnt have warp what is a real bad joke. A offensive "biotic" without a direct damaging biotic ability.This made sense.


Warp: 8 damage per second for 14 seconds at rank 7 with a cooldown of 50 seconds. Do you really think that's going to kill a roomful of drones? Besides what I meant that I can lift a damn Geth Colossus but those drones were immune to lift, throw and singularity which made fighting them as an adept really bad.

#2607
HCS01

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The combat system for the hammerhead was boringly basic. While I do appreciate the new vehicle controls, I prefer combat with the Mako. A short range MG for the smaller foes, and a heavy cannot that required zoom and aim allowed for more options when entering combat

#2608
uberdowzen

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bjdbwea wrote...

uberdowzen wrote...

The controls on PC are almost exactly the same!!!


Yes, and that's exactly the problem. The thing you're typing your replies on? It's called a "keyboard". Because it has many keys. There's no need to force several important functions on a single key. That may be necessary with your console controllers, but a proper PC adaption would make use of the additional keys.


Wow, I'm starting to understand what Skullandbonesmember means, some people around here don't read your posts...

A few days ago, in response to one of your posts...

I'm sorry? I hate consoles, I've never owned one and the total time I've
spent using one probably adds up to about an hour and a half in my
entire life. Consoles are almost singlehandedly killing creativity in
the games industry, but that's a subject for another time. Before you
accuse someone of being a console gamer, could you take the 5 seconds to
open my profile, check the games tab and note that DAO, DAA and ME2 are
all PC versions. Then note my signature which lists several
PC exclusives.


There's also no need to spread the keys all over the keyboard. I agree they should have put in the option to let you split it up (although the way it's coded, taking cover might actually be considered interacting by the engine). It'd be nice if all the menus were connected to keys, although how often do you need to check your journal mid mission? And I have a suspicion that this might be added in the next patch.

uberdowzen wrote...

You're absolutely correct, Shepherd couldn't just shrug off missiles and sniper shots. Of course, it was incredibly fun making one tiny mistake with a rocket, dying and losing about 10 minutes of progress either because you forgot to save or because the irritating save system hasn't let you save for the past 10 minutes because there are some enemies about 500m away who haven't even seen you.


Yes, it was challenging, somewhat at least. And that's a good thing.


How is any of the things I just listed a good thing. Please explain in game design terms.

uberdowzen wrote...

ME2 combat is challenging, but in a good way. If you think about what you're doing, you do well. ME1 combat is challenging in the incredibly uneven way. Krogans are a challenge but that's only because they can take a ridiculous amount of damage and also because often when you were running backwards from them you accidently took cover and got slaughtered while trying to get out of it.


ME 2 combat is not very challenging. It's a shooting range most of the time, and you're invincible as long as you don't forget to get back to cover every few seconds. Yes, and when a rocket hits Shepard, he just ducks for a few seconds too. That's what I call dumbing down.


You seem to have forgotten my point about Krogan. And when Shepherd is hit by a rocket he stands out in the open for a few seconds getting shot at. If you're already in a bad situation when that happens you'll die. The difference between ME1 and ME2 combat is that in ME2 when you die you go "Well, I know why that happened" whereas in ME1 you go "How the hell was I meant to avoid that?"

Of course my Shepard never accidently took cover in ME 1 either, but it happens regularly in ME 2, due to the bad controls, as described above.


This is probably going to come across as insulting, but if you're the kind of PC gamer who likes games like Arma and Crysis that use quite a bit of the keyboard, how come you're having trouble with ME2's combat? If you can cope with games like that, I'm pretty sure ME2 should be a pushover. Maybe you're not quite as hardcore as some of us...

Modifié par uberdowzen, 23 mai 2010 - 11:34 .


#2609
uberdowzen

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tonnactus wrote...

I repeat:
The player decide to mod his assault rifle this way.
Rpgs give the player such options.Shooters not.
In Oblivion,with the right drinks and fortiefied magig spells,it was also possible to spam devastating spells.


So you're saying that player's won't choose to mod out there weapons to be perfect?

#2610
KitsuneRommel

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bjdbwea wrote...

No, that is not necessary. ME 1 was a console game ported to PC too. Not even by BioWare, curiously enough, but by Demiurge. Some said it was badly done, but I don't agree. At least it provided the basics, like hotkeys and proper configuration of keys. But BioWare wanted to do it themselves for ME 2, apparently to make it even better. Guess what, it's worse.


You are asking the wrong person really. ME1 runs horribly (compared to almost any modern game) for me.

#2611
uberdowzen

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tonnactus wrote...

The answer is easy: This game has less options how to fight enemies.This game has less options to customize and upgrade weapons and "armor"(better called enchantements and shields,because damage migitation doesnt exist anymore/enviroment protections doesnt exists anymore)

Just imagine the mission with the three heavy mechs with the Mass Effect combat system:

A biotic could throw them,lift them,stasis them.A tech could sabotage their weapons from the start and dont have to wait until their shields and armor are down,at this point they are nearly dead anyways.
The player could use tungsten ammo without having it as a power and could give it the whole team,without reducing the damage output of the ammo.

A lot of option.

Now,what could the player do in MAss Effect 2? Just shoot them to death,increasing the speed of this with the ammo powers and some overload,warp,inferno blast and strafe around the shuttle at the end.Amazing,isnt it??


That doesn't mean the combat is simpler, it just means it's more customisable. We're talking about the actual in game combat.

Secondly, more to the point, in ME1 a Biotic would throw them, lift them, stasis them, have no powers left, take cover for 2 minutes while they recharge. That's less options.

I give up. I don't think I can persuade anyone...

#2612
tonnactus

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iakus wrote...

Liara doesn't have a lot of combat training that I know of, as her skills list shows.  But she is a natural biotic (as all asari are)  If it seems a little odd that she suddenly knows how to use them in combat conditions, well, a wizard taught herPosted Image
 


She was fighting mercs on her journeys and could handle them all with her biotics.

#2613
KitsuneRommel

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Arwyl wrote...

I've never played MMO's, so I don't know what their questhelpers are like.

They basically mark on the map where you need to go. Even on the sidequest bunkers or ships the map would already show which room had the point of interest. That's what I meant.

The loading pauses didn't completely take you out of the world by showing you some bright coloured animation. They just froze your screen for a moment. Yes, I prefered those. As I preferred the mass relay and FTL Normandy loading screens, which only came up when you were traveling or returning to the Normandy with the Mako.

I'm not fan of the ME2 style either but it's just strange how people seem to "forget" how often you did have a loading screen in ME1. And the loading pauses? Just how badly optimized was ME1?

I use fast transit sometimes. And I agree with you that this could have been done better, with an elevator-like cinematic sequence of Shepard & co in the shuttle, like it's done in ME 2 when you "drive" to the locations of some of the loyalty quests. I would have prefered that to the loading screens.

I would've loved to have those. I wouldn't mind making them long either if you had the option of skipping it as soon as the loading is done.
 

Lol... I actually do that. Posted Image I mean, writing down stats and running back and forth between the lockers and the merchant. Yes, it gets annoying and yes, I wish there was an easier way of doing that, like being able to check in a PDA or something what gear your squadmates were using. That would have been great.


I'm happy if you got that kind of feeling from ME1 inventory (meaning your previous post). For me they all just seemed too similar. Now tinkering with your partymembers gear in Dragon Age: Origins though...

#2614
bjdbwea

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Terror_K wrote...

Demiurge's conversion of ME1 was better than the ME2 PC version when it came to improved features and functionality, but was filled to the brim with bugs, errors, tended to not like running on PC's unless everything was just right, and needed many .ini tweaks to get the best out of it (which would tend to randomly reset now and then). ME2 is smoother and less buggy by far, but has next to no additional PC features, doesn't fully take advantage of the medium and really does feel more like a straight port than a proper conversion.


ME 2 smoother? Definitely, and that's one of the few improvements I acknowledge. But I didn't notice many bugs in ME 1, and I didn't need to edit any ini files. If anything, I had to do it in ME 2 to improve the horrible shadows and properly configure the mouse.

#2615
uberdowzen

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tonnactus wrote...

"Cant reach the target"isnt a bug when biotic charge didnt work when the enemy in just 1,2 meters away from me?
Samara and other squadmembers sometimes run around freely and i have to look where they are(Reaper Iff).
No one that ever played a vanguard in Mass Effect 2 can say that this game isnt bugged terribly at least for this class.


No, it's not. It means you can't reach the target, probably because something is in the way. Not sure what you mean about the Reaper IFF. I can still count those on my hands. And I'm playing a vanguard right now and I don't think the game is bugged. Vanguards are an awesome class.

#2616
uberdowzen

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bjdbwea wrote...

ME 2 smoother? Definitely, and that's one of the few improvements I acknowledge. But I didn't notice many bugs in ME 1, and I didn't need to edit any ini files. If anything, I had to do it in ME 2 to improve the horrible shadows and properly configure the mouse.


Horrible shadows? In ME2? You seem to be totally glossing over ME1's absolutely terrible shadows.

#2617
A_y0ner_

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Arwyl wrote...
 
But somehow, the story failed to grip me from the very beginning. I never took the mech attacks on the Cerberus facility seriously. In all honesty, I thought it was a drill to check whether I had regained full use of all my faculties and skills and was ready to resume fighting, a mere evaluation run to test extensively whether the Lazarus project had been a success. Only towards the end of that opening level did it hit me that the attack had been real. Why hadn’t it felt real?
 
And speaking of skills… Why did I have so few? Where had all my old skills gone? And why couldn’t I access them by pressing “U” any more? Wait, the “J” key wasn’t working either, and neither were “I” or “M”… Wait a minute… Where was my inventory? And why didn’t I have a map to help me explore? But this was the opening level, with the tutorial stuff going on… Maybe the inventory and the map would be available later on, after they had been explained by the tutorial.
 
Speaking of which… had there ever been a tutorial in ME? Hmm… couldn’t remember, but if it had been there, it certainly hadn’t been as present and immersion-breaking as this stuff flashing on my screen and the constant reminders by Miranda and Jacob of what I was supposed to do next. After the opening scene of ME, I had been free to explore the Normandy at will, before and after talking to Captain Anderson. Only a discrete note in my journal reminded me that, sooner or later, I was supposed to meet the Captain in the comms room, and talk to Joker to set course to the Citadel after that. But nobody and nothing had been pushing me to do so. Back to ME 2: What was that deck of bright orange vignettes popping up on the right side of my screen and making distracting sounds? Oh, right… they had the same function as the pleasantly discrete HUD notifications in ME. But wait… what the heck…? Loading screens? And later… Mission Complete screens??? “Press F to end the mission”????? Right, I was playing a game, and I was to be reminded of that fact all the time. Good-bye immersion.
 
But all this has been discussed at length before by others. I’ve read through the first 60 pages of this thread before starting to post and I’ve seen these issues brought up by many over and over again. I agree with those who feel that elevator rides were vastly preferable to loading screens in that they didn’t violently pull you out of the world and the story the way that loading screens do. The same holds true for walking in and out of the Normandy while docked. The “decontamination in progress” or “equalizing pressure” messages, and the military-protocol-ish ones like: “Logged: the Commanding Officer is ashore, XO Presley has the deck” felt very realistic and kept you in character and in the world. It all felt right. My huge thanks to Bioware for their great attention to detail!
 
I eventually got over the loading and mission complete screens. I even accepted the lack of an inventory. By reading through many posts here I’ve realised that I belong to a minority of people who actually enjoy managing inventories and finding, equipping, buying and selling stuff. To me, it definitely added to the game. I was genuinely thrilled when I first saw that Stiletto (IV or V, I’ve forgotten) in the salarian vendor’s assortment on Feros. Feros was the first planet I visited and me and my party still had our Kesslers and other very mediocre weapons at the time. We had to leave Feros without the Stiletto for lack of credits, but I promised Kaidan I’d buy him that pistol as soon as I could afford it… and I kept my promise! (I was using mainly my assault rifle, so the fancy pistol had to be for him.) Kaidan stuck to that pistol for a long time, even long after we had found and bought better weapons. This is just one way in which the inventory helped me role-play and get immersed. I never felt the same thrill about the upgrades I found or bought in ME 2, but I eventually learned to live with the new system, and got over it. I even bought a few fish for my excessively luxurious cabin on the SR2.
 
But there were a few things I never got over, and those were the things that kept reminding me that ME 2 was just a game. I’ll start a new post for those, this one has gotten long enough!
Posted Image



Arwyl,

I absolutely agree with you on the opening level. It has a  incomplete feenling to it. Who started the attack? Was it really that Cereberus employee Miranda killed? If so, why? Was it perhaps Miranda?

I thought it would have been a great idea for Miranda to have started the whole attack. Kill all the witnesses to the Lazarus project and destroy all the evidence. It sounds like some ruthless thing Cerberus would do. Perhaps they wanted to keep Shepard's survival as a secret weapon.

But instead, it has this whoel, "huh? what the hell is going on?" feeling that never gets explained or even considered somewhat satisfyingly.

And as for getting used to the layout of ME2, every game has that learning curve. It's been a factor of every video game in history. It's nothing to really complain about. So it's different from ME1. It's a new game; It should be.

As for the loading screens and mission complete screens, I think everyone agress with you. I personally didn't understand why everyone was complaining about the loading times in the elevator. I thought they were a great idea and I didn't think they were particularly long.

and the inventory of ME2 is an example of a great idea that wasn't executed so well. I liked the fact that you couldn't change weapons during a mission. After all, do soldiers bring with them plethoras of weapons and armors into battle? But there was a noticeable lack of variety. Which was dissapointing. Especially in the armor department. 

But the ME1 inventory system wasn't perfect. Omni gel was a useless concept. I hated having 20 of the same weapons and then having to throw out all the weapons I picked up because my inventory was full. It definitely got a little messy at times. ME2 is more clean but less exciting I would say.

#2618
tonnactus

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[quote]KitsuneRommel wrote...

[quote]tonnactus

Yes adept could rotate lift, singularity and throw and they would never get a shot off.

But other than that... in ME1 you could use your and your squads powers to help you shoot the targets down.
In ME2 you could use your and your squads powers to help you shoot the targets down.
[/quote]

Yes,and what didnt exist really? A thing called crowd control.Sabotage in Mass Effect has a radious of 10 m.And effect all enemies,not only unshielded ones.

#2619
Arwyl

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KitsuneRommel wrote...

They basically mark on the map where you need to go. Even on the sidequest bunkers or ships the map would already show which room had the point of interest. That's what I meant.


Yeah, that sounds lame. It happened a lot in ME too. I didn't mind when there was some logic to it, like when somebody said "I'll mark the coordinates on your map", or when I could have marked those places myself, like where Mr. Bhatia was waiting for me while I negotiated the release of his late wife's body, after talking to him for the first time. But it's just lame when you board a derelict ship you've accidentally stumbled across and your map shows exactly where the ships' mainframe is, or whatever, before you even make it past the airlock.

The "arrow" pointing you in the only possible right direction in your ME 2 navigation HUD was just as lame, though.


I'm happy if you got that kind of feeling from ME1 inventory (meaning your previous post). For me they all just seemed too similar. Now tinkering with your partymembers gear in Dragon Age: Origins though...


I need to buy me a copy of that game *soon*  Posted Image

#2620
tonnactus

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KitsuneRommel wrote...

tonnactus wrote...

Warp works against Drones in Mass Effect too.The Mass Effect 2 Vanguard has no tools against drones because he didnt have warp what is a real bad joke. A offensive "biotic" without a direct damaging biotic ability.This made sense.


Warp: 8 damage per second for 14 seconds at rank 7 with a cooldown of 50 seconds. Do you really think that's going to kill a roomful of drones? Besides what I meant that I can lift a damn Geth Colossus but those drones were immune to lift, throw and singularity which made fighting them as an adept really bad.


Read the full the description.This couldnt be so difficult.There is something stated about damage reduction,that reduces the protection of armor.And all enemies is Mass Effect had armor.

#2621
tonnactus

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uberdowzen wrote...

tonnactus wrote...

I repeat:
The player decide to mod his assault rifle this way.
Rpgs give the player such options.Shooters not.
In Oblivion,with the right drinks and fortiefied magig spells,it was also possible to spam devastating spells.


So you're saying that player's won't choose to mod out there weapons to be perfect?

What is perfect? Everyone had a different opinion about that.Some people also like fun and let garrus use a sniper rifle with thwo scram rails and explosive ammo,so he can play krogan pinball.

In the second game there are people who like the katana and the shuriken despise the fact that they are weaker then the scimitar and the locust.

#2622
tonnactus

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uberdowzen wrote...

That doesn't mean the combat is simpler,


Less options.More simpler.Plain and simple.A really boring scissors,paper, rock system that didnt require any thinking.


Secondly, more to the point, in ME1 a Biotic would throw them, lift them, stasis them, have no powers left, take cover for 2 minutes while they recharge. That's less options.



No.Then the first power would become availbale again.And its funny that you mention of time a player has to spent in cover.Because there is little time to shoot a heavy mech.Only in the pauses when it didnt fire the machine gun you could actually shoot them.Or when he is busy to destroy a combat drone.(doesnt last very long too)

#2623
tonnactus

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uberdowzen wrote...

tonnactus wrote...

"Cant reach the target"isnt a bug when biotic charge didnt work when the enemy in just 1,2 meters away from me?
Samara and other squadmembers sometimes run around freely and i have to look where they are(Reaper Iff).
No one that ever played a vanguard in Mass Effect 2 can say that this game isnt bugged terribly at least for this class.


No, it's not. It means you can't reach the target, probably because something is in the way. Not sure what you mean about the Reaper IFF. I can still count those on my hands. And I'm playing a vanguard right now and I don't think the game is bugged. Vanguards are an awesome class.


You are just lying or not far enough in the game.There isnt a mission without "cant rech the target" where is nothing in the way between you and your enemie.I mean the collector platforms.Its impossible to charge out of cover to another platform even when it is connected to yours.You have to sprint to another platform and take a lot of bullets before you could actually charge.Charge bugs: Enemy standing in the air or above boxes when you reach them.

Not a bug too i guess.Lol.

#2624
MassEffect762

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I think part of the reason they took away our/the ability to spam powers(not that ammo type B.S) was because of the introduction of heavy weapons, they are(imo) substitute "domination" in ME2 for ME1s power spam.(boy I miss that, hell imagine if we could have both!)

Modifié par MassEffect762, 24 mai 2010 - 12:48 .


#2625
MassEffect762

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Double.

Modifié par MassEffect762, 24 mai 2010 - 12:47 .