10273 réponses à ce sujet

[Lumikki]

bjdbwea wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Nope, the difference is between who does the targeting, You as real life person or you character while you just select the targets. That's the real difference between them. Meaning it's differences between simulated character doing thing, while player just gives the strategy or in shooter, player is actually shooting as forced to follow with targeting system the targets.

Yeah, that's a difference. But it's not what determines if it's an "RPG combat system" or not. You could easily develop a game where you select the targets, but have no RPG elements. Wouldn't be an "RPG combat system" just because you click on the enemies.

As I said, ME 1 - and to some extent ME 2 - are hybrid systems. Like Fallout 3, but there it works even better.

Yes, in some ways you are right. You can develop RPG combat system without RPG what is really bad simple game.

RPG combat + RPG content = Pure RPG
RPG combat + Shooter content = Simple basic game.
Shooter combat + RPG content = Action RPG
Shooter combat + shooter content = Shooter game.

My point was that in ME series, the combat is shooter combat, not RPG combat. So, it's not the combat what define's ME's RPG status, it's the other content what does it.

Modifié par Lumikki, 24 mai 2010 - 06:09 .

[AlanC9]

What's your definition of "RPG combat"?

[KitsuneRommel]

AlanC9 wrote...

What's your definition of "RPG combat"?

Hitting based on character's stats/skills, not my skills.

[CroGamer002]

Reasons why ME2 is RPG:

You have freedom to chose mission whenever you want and when you want.

You can upgrade and change character skills.

You can effect course of story.

You have multiple endings.

You can be nice guy or douchbag or even mixture( OK that's not possible).

.

.

.

[tonnactus]

uberdowzen wrote...



So to be an effective you have to use two late level armor upgrades and choose the right specialisation. Choice is only a good thing if the alternatives options are worth choosing.

And how is this different from the current system??

Because it makes the gameplay more interesting. It requires you to use more of your weapons and rely more on squad members.

I cant rely on squadmembers because in this game they have absurd long cooldown times. The most extreme example is the one for the combat drone of Legion and Tali.Which idiot decide that this was a good idea??
And with the global cooldown it blocks the other usefull abilities for 30 s.Great.

They're not meant to be as good as you.

Really?The best specialists in the galaxy shouldnt be nearly equal compared with shepardt.

[KitsuneRommel]

tonnactus wrote...

Really?The best specialists in the galaxy shouldnt be nearly equal compared with shepardt.

Unless you can control your teammates they never will be. AI will always be AI.

[tonnactus]

KitsuneRommel wrote...

tonnactus wrote...

Read the full the description.This couldnt be so difficult.There is something stated about damage reduction,that reduces the protection of armor.And all enemies is Mass Effect had armor.

Warp doesn't work against shields though. Anyone know if armor mitigation is calculated before or after shields anyway?

I don't even remember what this argument was all about.

The argument was about that you claimed you didnt have powers that work against drones what was wrong.(after this mission anyway if you choose bastion)
The damage migitation works right from the start before the shields are down.Test it out yourself with Proton rounds if didnt believe me.(those ones who bypass shields)

[tonnactus]

finnithe wrote...


It's a bad mechanic if you have to ask about it. It was never really explained in the game how that worked, was it?

What have to be explained there? You see it on your own armor,that have three stats.Shields,damage migitation and biotic/tech protection.An enemy with a damage migitation of 60 ends with one of 15 after master warp.Thats means you need a lot less bullets to kill them.Warp was also one of the best abliites on insanity because it neutralizes immunity.(when the lifebar of an enemy goes white)
Bad gamemechanic is now that the game dont display the stats of the actual weapons so you couldnt decide which is the better shotgun without reading the article in the Wikia.The multipliers for powers like incinerate and warp are not displayed to.

Modifié par tonnactus, 24 mai 2010 - 06:48 .

[KitsuneRommel]

tonnactus wrote...

The argument was about that you claimed you didnt have powers that work against drones what was wrong.(after this mission anyway if you choose bastion)
The damage migitation works right from the start before the shields are down.Test it out yourself with Proton rounds if didnt believe me.(those ones who bypass shields)

Ok so I had one power that affected the drones. Yay! It really didn't make much difference since I ended up solo-sniping them from corners where they couldn't shoot back. That's one mission where Adepts really get screwed. It's still strange how Singularity can pull enemies through floors but those drones are completely immune. It really doesn't fit with how ME1 biotics work otherwise.

[KitsuneRommel]

tonnactus wrote...

What have to be explained there? You see it on your own armor,that have three stats.Shields,damage migitation and biotic/tech protection.An enemy with a damage migitation of 60 ends with one of 15 after master warp.Thats means you need a lot less bullets to kill them.Warp was also one of the best abliites on insanity because it neutralizes immunity.(when the lifebar of an enemy goes white)
Bad gamemechanic is now that the game dont display the stats of the actual weapons so you couldnt decide which is the better shotgun without reading the article in the Wikia.The multipliers for powers like incinerate and warp are not displayed to.

Could you answer my question about those bonuses and how they stack? I'm not trying to be an ass. I really want to know (if you know).

[SuperMedbh]

KitsuneRommel wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

What's your definition of "RPG combat"?

Hitting based on character's stats/skills, not my skills.

Interesting point.  But just to be philosophical, at what point do we move from RPG to action?  Mass Effect may rely upon the skill of the player to "shoot", but is that really all that different from Dragon Age relying upon the skill of the player to position the characters tactically?  If I play Dragon Age without pausing, aren't I relying upon my reflexes?  What if I play an Adept in Mass Effect, pausing before each biotic ability I use?  How is that different from playing a mage in DA:O?

Unless we just watch cutscenes ala Heavy Rain, at some point skill and probably reactions will enter the equation.  While clicking with a mouse on a target might feel more like shooting a gun than positioning a swordsman feels like fencing, that similarity exists more in the mind of the player than an actual skill with weaponry.  It is a skill, or you couldn't get better at it.  But that doesn't make it representational.

I suspect the real difference between RPGs and Shooters has more to do with storyline involvement with outcome than with actual play mechanics.

Sorry, just philosophizing as I said

[tonnactus]

KitsuneRommel wrote...

finnithe wrote...

It's a bad mechanic if you have to ask about it. It was never really explained in the game how that worked, was it? Conversely, it's explained very well that the more rapid-firing a weapon is, the better it is against barriers and shields, while its stuff like shotguns and sniper rifles that are able to effectively punch through armor. 

It becomes fun when you actually try to figure out how much +14% Mobile Accuracy, +12% Damage Protection, +20% Hardening, +50% Physics Threshold, +21% Weapon Stability, +12% Weapon Accuracy, etc. actually help.

For example if your armor has 22 Damage protection does the +12% DP make it 24,64 or 34? Immunity also increases DP. Is it capped, does it have diminishing returns or can you be totally immune to damage with it? It's strange that it's really hard to find solid information about those.

There is some info in the old forums:
http://meforums.biow...forum=123&sp=30

http://meforums.biow...44724&forum=104

[Tasker]

Mesina2 wrote...

Orkboy wrote...

Hmm... Thinking about it, I have to wonder... How much more awsome would Mass Effect have been if it had used a combat/inventory system like Fallout 3s?

Just inventory.
I really don't wish to see something like VATS in ME universe. You know when you freeze time and select where to shot your target.




ANDRENALIN RUSH DOESN'T COUNT!

Sorry, I didn't mean VATS I meant everything else about Fallouts combat, it's just more intuitive than MEs ( and it has propper crouching behing cover.  ), I should have been a bit clearer.

[tonnactus]

KitsuneRommel wrote...

tonnactus wrote...

Really?The best specialists in the galaxy shouldnt be nearly equal compared with shepardt.

Unless you can control your teammates they never will be. AI will always be AI.

But they could have at least the same cooldown times like shepardt for actually supporting him. This was the case in the first game.Why this have to changed??
 
Because of this for example for shields i just take zaeed with squad disruptor ammo.Because it didnt have a cooldown of 12 s.
Works the whole mission.
Overload is so pointless to have for squadmates.

[tonnactus]

KitsuneRommel wrote...

tonnactus wrote...

The argument was about that you claimed you didnt have powers that work against drones what was wrong.(after this mission anyway if you choose bastion)
The damage migitation works right from the start before the shields are down.Test it out yourself with Proton rounds if didnt believe me.(those ones who bypass shields)

Ok so I had one power that affected the drones. Yay! It really didn't make much difference since I ended up solo-sniping them from corners where they couldn't shoot back. That's one mission where Adepts really get screwed. It's still strange how Singularity can pull enemies through floors but those drones are completely immune. It really doesn't fit with how ME1 biotics work otherwise.

Drones fly with using Mass Effect fields,so they are immune to it.Stasis and warp always work.2 powers.

[tonnactus]

KitsuneRommel wrote...

tonnactus wrote...

What have to be explained there? You see it on your own armor,that have three stats.Shields,damage migitation and biotic/tech protection.An enemy with a damage migitation of 60 ends with one of 15 after master warp.Thats means you need a lot less bullets to kill them.Warp was also one of the best abliites on insanity because it neutralizes immunity.(when the lifebar of an enemy goes white)
Bad gamemechanic is now that the game dont display the stats of the actual weapons so you couldnt decide which is the better shotgun without reading the article in the Wikia.The multipliers for powers like incinerate and warp are not displayed to.

Could you answer my question about those bonuses and how they stack? I'm not trying to be an ass. I really want to know (if you know).

For what,armor?

Works this way.Armor damage migitation=40.Damage from enemy 100.
Damage incomming 60 points.Upgrades like ablative are not additive.10 points from an upgrade.60*0,9=54.
MAster immunity damage migitation is 80.
54*0,2=10,8.

[KitsuneRommel]

SuperMedbh wrote...

Sorry, just philosophizing as I said

One could probably write books about that...

Easy answer is that there's no easy answer. Just like how you define something as an RPG. Ask 10 people and you get 10 different answers.

[KitsuneRommel]

tonnactus wrote...

For what,armor?

Works this way.Armor damage migitation=40.Damage from enemy 100.
Damage incomming 60 points.Upgrades like ablative are not additive.10 points from an upgrade.60*0,9=54.
MAster immunity damage migitation is 80.
54*0,2=10,8.

Thanks. I'll check those links too.

Edit: Forgot to add this. It pretty much makes
many of the armor mods useless for light armor which I already
suspected. They probably should have made it a straight bonus with
diminishing returns. Make the mods useful for lighter armor without making heavy invulnerable.

Modifié par KitsuneRommel, 24 mai 2010 - 08:02 .

[finnithe]

tonnactus wrote...

KitsuneRommel wrote...

tonnactus wrote...

Really?The best specialists in the galaxy shouldnt be nearly equal compared with shepardt.

Unless you can control your teammates they never will be. AI will always be AI.

But they could have at least the same cooldown times like shepardt for actually supporting him. This was the case in the first game.Why this have to changed??
 
Because of this for example for shields i just take zaeed with squad disruptor ammo.Because it didnt have a cooldown of 12 s.
Works the whole mission.
Overload is so pointless to have for squadmates.

On the other hand, I prefer using Squad A/P ammo because it also has bonuses against Health while using Miranda's Area Overload and my squad's submachine guns to take out shields.

tonnactus wrote...

finnithe wrote...


It's a bad mechanic if you have to ask about it. It was never really explained in the game how that worked, was it? 

What have to be explained there? You see it on your own armor,that have three stats.Shields,damage migitation and biotic/tech protection.An enemy with a damage migitation of 60 ends with one of 15 after master warp.Thats means you need a lot less bullets to kill them.Warp was also one of the best abliites on insanity because it neutralizes immunity.(when the lifebar of an enemy goes white)
Bad gamemechanic is now that the game dont display the stats of the actual weapons so you couldnt decide which is the better shotgun without reading the article in the Wikia.The multipliers for powers like incinerate and warp are not displayed to.

Okay, but does that damage protection absorb 15% of any damage directed towards the user? Or is it 15 points of hard damage per hit? Similarly, is biotic/tech protection percentage or damage based? I ask this because there were no units expressed on the damage/biotic/tech protection.

At least with Mass Effect the description of the gun tells you what it's good at. It is sort of ridiculous that they didn't put more detailed stats though. I don't see why it would be so difficult. 

[KitsuneRommel]

finnithe wrote...

tonnactus wrote...
Overload is so pointless to have for squadmates.

On the other hand, I prefer using Squad A/P ammo because it also has bonuses against Health while using Miranda's Area Overload and my squad's submachine guns to take out shields.

Overload is NOT useless.

Wiki quotes following:
Overload:
It shuts down an enemy's shields, rendering them vulnerable to attack.
Overload is typically used to take down shields or synthetics, but will
also cause any unshielded enemies using flamethrowers to explode.
Starting at rank 3, Overload will cause enemy weapons to overheat,
making them unable to fire for a brief period. It also does double
damage versus shields. It can also be used on explosive containers to
make them denonate more violently for added damage.


Disruptor Ammo:
When activated, the player's weapon is empowered and causes additional damage
to shields and synthetic enemies, and has a chance
of temporarily disabling synthetic enemies and overheating enemy
weapons.

[uberdowzen]

Ecael wrote...

Dudeman315 wrote...

finnithe wrote...

1) Could you guys remove that completely unfounded signature of yours? It's pretty obnoxious to just state that ME2 ignores story for action, especially in an area where no one can respond to you and you cannot provide any evidence.

1)I'll remove it when all of the following occur in ME2: Removal of thermal clips, change to a Cohesive plot vs the piece meal plot, no infinite respawn enemies, and we have non-combat alterative ways to solve missions.

You should remove it because it's unoriginal and utterly pointless.

Removal of thermal clips:
ME1 - Non-stop shooting with frictionless materials - RPG! Gameplay!
ME2 - Shooting and reloading with heatsinks - SHOOTER! LAME PLAY!

Plot:
ME1 - Several different storylines started with an indoctrinated Saren working for Reapers - RPG! GENIUS!
ME2 - Several different storylines continued with an indoctrinated Collector working for Reapers - SHOOTER! PLOTLESS!

Hostiles:
ME1 - Having to kill every hostile outside the Mako to get full XP - RPG! FLAWLESS!
ME2 - Respawning enemies in a few missions to prevent turtling and not sacrifice XP - SHOOTER! BRAINLESS!

Plot or character driven missions with no gameplay combat required:
ME1 - WHERE?
ME2 - ???????

I'll make signatures of my own then...

For those who are tired of people bashing BioWare and think both games are equally great:

(Add brackets to the ends)

img]http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/8614/caela1a.jpg[/img
img]http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/2764/caela1b.jpg[/img

For those who either like all the romances or think they're all equally shallow:

(Add brackets to the ends)

img]http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/3899/caela2a.jpg[/img
img]http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/9921/caela2b.jpg[/img

I'll make one for 'splosions if you admit that both ME1 and ME2 have more 'splosions and shooting than lines of dialogue.

Oh man, you're the best thing that ever happened to this thread. I'd put your awesome sig in mine except I think I'd have to ditch mine to fit it in.

[CroGamer002]

KitsuneRommel wrote...

finnithe wrote...

tonnactus wrote...
Overload is so pointless to have for squadmates.

On the other hand, I prefer using Squad A/P ammo because it also has bonuses against Health while using Miranda's Area Overload and my squad's submachine guns to take out shields.

Overload is NOT useless.

Wiki quotes following:
Overload:
It shuts down an enemy's shields, rendering them vulnerable to attack.
Overload is typically used to take down shields or synthetics, but will
also cause any unshielded enemies using flamethrowers to explode.
Starting at rank 3, Overload will cause enemy weapons to overheat,
making them unable to fire for a brief period. It also does double
damage versus shields. It can also be used on explosive containers to
make them denonate more violently for added damage.


Disruptor Ammo:
When activated, the player's weapon is empowered and causes additional damage
to shields and synthetic enemies, and has a chance
of temporarily disabling synthetic enemies and overheating enemy
weapons.

I used overload( squad mates or my engineer Shep)  and distruptor ammo( my soldier Shep) most of the game since most enemies have sheilds on Hardcore/Insanity.

[uberdowzen]

tonnactus wrote...

And how is this different from the current system??

Um, how does this have any relevance to the current system? And if it's the same, how come ME2 is apparently so much worse than ME1?

I cant rely on squadmembers because in this game they have absurd long cooldown times. The most extreme example is the one for the combat drone of Legion and Tali.Which idiot decide that this was a good idea??
And with the global cooldown it blocks the other usefull abilities for 30 s.Great.

But the combat drone is very useful, you have to think about whether to use it or not.

Really?The best specialists in the galaxy shouldnt be nearly equal compared with shepardt.

Pretty much.

[tonnactus]

finnithe wrote...

On the other hand, I prefer using Squad A/P ammo because it also has bonuses against Health while using Miranda's Area Overload and my squad's submachine guns to take out shields.

If you prefer somthing against health shredder and cyro ammo would be better.But this is the first time i hear that someone prefer ammo against health.Ap didnt even stop the insane high health regenration of enemy krogans.In that case inferno ammo is better.

Okay, but does that damage protection absorb 15% of any damage directed towards the user? Or is it 15 points of hard damage per hit? Similarly, is biotic/tech protection percentage or damage based? I ask this because there were no units expressed on the damage/biotic/tech protection.

Percentage based.
I know that a high biotics/tech protection lowers the amount of overheat of a weapon.Wrex with his geth armor could still fire his shotgun after an enemy batarian engineer used sabotage on him.( the armor has a 50 tech/biotic protection)

[tonnactus]

KitsuneRommel wrote...

finnithe wrote...

tonnactus wrote...
Overload is so pointless to have for squadmates.

On the other hand, I prefer using Squad A/P ammo because it also has bonuses against Health while using Miranda's Area Overload and my squad's submachine guns to take out shields.

Overload is NOT useless.

Wiki quotes following:
Overload:
It shuts down an enemy's shields, rendering them vulnerable to attack.
Overload is typically used to take down shields or synthetics, but will
also cause any unshielded enemies using flamethrowers to explode.
Starting at rank 3, Overload will cause enemy weapons to overheat,
making them unable to fire for a brief period. It also does double
damage versus shields. It can also be used on explosive containers to
make them denonate more violently for added damage.


Disruptor Ammo:
When activated, the player's weapon is empowered and causes additional damage
to shields and synthetic enemies, and has a chance
of temporarily disabling synthetic enemies and overheating enemy
weapons.

And in practice,it works as good as overload(even better because of no reload time),except that it doesnt detonate explosive containers.(only good for killing husks anyway)