10273 réponses à ce sujet

[CroGamer002]

WilliamShatner wrote...

Here's a review that puts forth many of the flaws in an abrasive, comedic way. www.youtube.com/watch

Warning includes very strong language.

That's not a review, that's just bit-ching.

Modifié par Mesina2, 27 mai 2010 - 08:20 .

[uberdowzen]

uberdowzen wrote...

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

So say if there's a DLC that's released. Dialogue DLC. 2 hours of nothing but chattin' with your LI for example. Would you download it? Not just to say you played it, but would you/could you actually enjoy 2 hours straight of a game without your thumb getting twitchy for shooting and *that word*?

Yes, I'd enjoy that. And why would my thumbs be getting twitchy, I use my thumb to take cover and interact.

Actually, I've been thinking about this and I have to change my viewpoint a bit. I would be interested in this as long as it either a) had interesting character progression (e.g. not dialogue for the sake of dialogue) or interesting choices or c) an interesting plot. This isn't because I'm obssessed with headshots though, as I wouldn't be interested in DLC which was just combat for the sake of combat.

[ShakeZoohla]

Ecael wrote...
...
I'd say their opinion is slightly more valid than the ones who are dissatisfied here...

I'd say that sounds like sheep-ism, and that no one's opinion is any more valid than anyone elses.

[uberdowzen]

WilliamShatner wrote...

Here's a review that puts forth many of the flaws in an abrasive, comedic way. www.youtube.com/watch

Warning includes very strong language.

A few points about this:

* Even though I'm usually a fan of excessive swearing for comedy (big fan of The Thick of It and In The Loop) this video just came across as crude.

* You'll notice that despite the fact that he didn't like the game, he did admit that it was probably a stop gap between ME1 and ME3 and didn't completely write off the series.

* How on earth could he complain about the new crew in ME2 when ME1 had the incredibly annoying Liara?

[tonnactus]

uberdowzen wrote...


Actually, I've been thinking about this and I have to change my viewpoint a bit. I would be interested in this as long as it either a) had interesting character progression (e.g. not dialogue for the sake of dialogue) or interesting choices or c) an interesting plot. This isn't because I'm obssessed with headshots though, as I wouldn't be interested in DLC which was just combat for the sake of combat.

It is possible to make a Dlc that is interesting in story and combat.Like Bringing Down the Sky with all those batarian engineers that sabotage your weapon every five seconds(in addtion to that damping,overload and neuralshock).Well,some enemies in Kasumis Mission used flash bang grenades.This is better then nothing but not really satisfying.

And that is a reason why i am dissapointed by Mass Effect 2 "great combat".

[uberdowzen]

tonnactus wrote...

It is possible to make a Dlc that is interesting in story and combat.Like Bringing Down the Sky with all those batarian engineers that sabotage your weapon every five seconds(in addtion to that damping,overload and neuralshock).Well,some enemies in Kasumis Mission used flash bang grenades.This is better then nothing but not really satisfying.

And that is a reason why i am dissapointed by Mass Effect 2 "great combat".

Um...and that relates to my post how?

[tonnactus]

uberdowzen wrote...

tonnactus wrote...

It is possible to make a Dlc that is interesting in story and combat.Like Bringing Down the Sky with all those batarian engineers that sabotage your weapon every five seconds(in addtion to that damping,overload and neuralshock).Well,some enemies in Kasumis Mission used flash bang grenades.This is better then nothing but not really satisfying.

And that is a reason why i am dissapointed by Mass Effect 2 "great combat".

Um...and that relates to my post how?

I just want to point out that is possible to Dlc that is intersting in both,combat and story,and give an example for it.Balak even confront shepardts with its background when he was "ruthless".More then a sole survior shepardt could do with cerberus in Mass Effect 2...

[Iakus]

Kaylord wrote...

Very nice summary, could be expanded a bit, of course. But I am positively surprised how overall maturely  and serious this topic has been discussed past the last 100+ pages. Many things have already been discussed, but anyway... here my add-ins:

Good idea: New romance options.
Bad idea1: Handly the old ones very poorly.
Bad idea2: Kissing through helmets, bed scenes in uniforms.

Good idea: New loot system.
Bad idea: Heat sink searching remains by fact the same loot system, but even more boring.

Good idea: Free exploration
Bad idea: Mining reticule, scanning.

Good idea: Remove stupid Mako behaviour and boring exploration maps
Bad idea: Remove vehicular exploration/combat altogether
(Good idea: Reintroduce vehicular exploration/combat with DCL)
(Bad idea: Transform it into jump&run game)

Good idea: Improve minigames
Bad idea: Remove choice to bypass minigames with omnigel

Good idea: Streamline skill system
Bad idea1: Oversimplify.
Bad idea2: couple persuasion ability with quantity of good/evil decisionmaking

...and so on....

Yeah I thought of a couple more after posting, like

Good Idea:  New romance options
Bad idea:  Kicking the old LIs to the curb

Good idea;  Interrupt options

But overall, people can fill in more as they fit.  Just trying to demonstrate that there ARE good things about ME 2.  And I'm not just a "hater"  I genuinely find ME 2 to be lacking.

[Ecael]

ShakeZoohla wrote...

Ecael wrote...
...
I'd say their opinion is slightly more valid than the ones who are dissatisfied here...

I'd say that sounds like sheep-ism, and that no one's opinion is any more valid than anyone elses.

Sheep-ism is when everyone makes the same complaints over and over even using the same exact phrases and talking points. Not only are people not presenting any original solutions, but they aren't coming up with any original complaints either. Just saying the same things over and over again, and grasping at the same straws.

Do a Google search on ME2 planet-scanning or ME2 "daddy issues" to see what I mean.

Also, BioWare's opinion is the one that matters in the end, considering they make the game.

[MassEffect762]

WilliamShatner wrote...

Here's a review that puts forth many of the flaws in an abrasive, comedic way. www.youtube.com/watch

Warning includes very strong language.

LOL.

[uberdowzen]

tonnactus wrote...

I just want to point out that is possible to Dlc that is intersting in both,combat and story,and give an example for it.Balak even confront shepardts with its background when he was "ruthless".More then a sole survior shepardt could do with cerberus in Mass Effect 2...

I never said they couldn't, I just said that I'd be just as down on a "combat for the sake of combat" DLC as I would be on a "dialogue for the sake of dialogue" DLC.

[Terror_K]

Ecael wrote...

ShakeZoohla wrote...

Ecael wrote...
...
I'd say their opinion is slightly more valid than the ones who are dissatisfied here...

I'd say that sounds like sheep-ism, and that no one's opinion is any more valid than anyone elses.

Sheep-ism is when everyone makes the same complaints over and over even using the same exact phrases and talking points. Not only are people not presenting any original solutions, but they aren't coming up with any original complaints either. Just saying the same things over and over again, and grasping at the same straws.

Do a Google search on ME2 planet-scanning or ME2 "daddy issues" to see what I mean.

Also, BioWare's opinion is the one that matters in the end, considering they make the game.

That doesn't mean the points are any less valid. What... so there has to be lots of new concerns and problems with ME2 coming up every day or two for these concerns to be legit? And just because people use similar or samey terms when illustrating the problems they're just doing it to follow the crowd for no reason? They're not doing it because they feel its a good term for describing the issue that should be commonly used so the issue can be nailed down and defined by a common term (which is no different than terms like "Femshep" or "Talimance" becoming commonplace over time here)? They're just doing it to follow... it has nothing to do with them actually feeling that this is a problem?

I would say that the more people that agree fully with a problem and adopt it themselves, the more legitimate the problem actually is. It's quite hard for people to agree on things a lot of the time as it is, so when you get people agreeing on an issue fully to the point of directly adopting the term (or terms) commonly associated with it. Many people can have many different feelings about a game and its various elements, but when there's a large consensus that agrees on a particular point then it should at least be explored as a possible issue to address.

One could just as easily say the official reviewers who all gave ME2 9's and 10's are exhibiting sheep-ism as well.

[Dudeman315]

Ecael wrote...

ShakeZoohla wrote...

Ecael wrote...
...
I'd say their opinion is slightly more valid than the ones who are dissatisfied here...

I'd say that sounds like sheep-ism, and that no one's opinion is any more valid than anyone elses.

Sheep-ism is when everyone makes the same complaints over and over even using the same exact phrases and talking points. Not only are people not presenting any original solutions, but they aren't coming up with any original complaints either. Just saying the same things over and over again, and grasping at the same straws.

Do a Google search on ME2 planet-scanning or ME2 "daddy issues" to see what I mean.

Also, BioWare's opinion is the one that matters in the end, considering they make the game.

I know it's like BP had an oil spill taht's lasted over a week get over it and Iran may be trying to gain nuclear weapons but stop bringing it up it's been done to death . . .Or you know maybe people have valid points and keep bring them up because they noticed the same problems over and over again.

[Ecael]

Terror_K wrote...

That doesn't mean the points are any less valid. What... so there has to be lots of new concerns and problems with ME2 coming up every day or two for these concerns to be legit? And just because people use similar or samey terms when illustrating the problems they're just doing it to follow the crowd for no reason? They're not doing it because they feel its a good term for describing the issue that should be commonly used so the issue can be nailed down and defined by a common term (which is no different than terms like "Femshep" or "Talimance" becoming commonplace over time here)? They're just doing it to follow... it has nothing to do with them actually feeling that this is a problem?

I would say that the more people that agree fully with a problem and adopt it themselves, the more legitimate the problem actually is. It's quite hard for people to agree on things a lot of the time as it is, so when you get people agreeing on an issue fully to the point of directly adopting the term (or terms) commonly associated with it. Many people can have many different feelings about a game and its various elements, but when there's a large consensus that agrees on a particular point then it should at least be explored as a possible issue to address.

Particular point, but not a particular solution. If you can get everyone to agree to a solution, then BioWare will certainly take it into consideration. However, since us BioWare forumgoers only represent a small minority, any kind of disagreement will nix the idea.

I posted this in another thread as an example:

For example: There's a lot of complaining about planet-scanning. A very small amount of people like planet-scanning (including some critics, I don't why), but they say it could be faster. What does BioWare do?

1. Release a patch to make planet-scanning much faster
2. Announce that they're keeping planet-scanning in ME3

Who do you think they're listening to at this point?

One could just as easily say the official reviewers who all gave ME2 9's and 10's are exhibiting sheep-ism as well.

You could easily say that about any game that gets high ratings.

Super Mario Galaxy 2 is currently at 97.37% with Super Mario Galaxy 1 at 97.25%.

Is it a different genre? Yes.

Why am I bringing that game up? Because people on some MG2 forums are complaining that Super Mario Galaxy 2 shouldn't be considered better than 1 because it's too linear and doesn't have enough exploration as most "platformer element" games do.

...I'm not even joking.

[Pocketgb]

Terror_K wrote...

That doesn't mean the points are any less valid.

I don't think that's what she meant.

[Ecael]

Dudeman315 wrote...

Ecael wrote...

ShakeZoohla wrote...

Ecael wrote...
...
I'd say their opinion is slightly more valid than the ones who are dissatisfied here...

I'd say that sounds like sheep-ism, and that no one's opinion is any more valid than anyone elses.

Sheep-ism is when everyone makes the same complaints over and over even using the same exact phrases and talking points. Not only are people not presenting any original solutions, but they aren't coming up with any original complaints either. Just saying the same things over and over again, and grasping at the same straws.

Do a Google search on ME2 planet-scanning or ME2 "daddy issues" to see what I mean.

Also, BioWare's opinion is the one that matters in the end, considering they make the game.

I know it's like BP had an oil spill taht's lasted over a week get over it and Iran may be trying to gain nuclear weapons but stop bringing it up it's been done to death . . .Or you know maybe people have valid points and keep bring them up because they noticed the same problems over and over again.

I know quite a few people who love watching Fox News for its commentary. When I ask them what solutions Fox News presents amidst all that whining that their commentators do, they remain silent.

Why? Because that channel is dedicated to complaining about everything, but when someone asks what they think on how to solve the problem, they start berating those people and labeling them as loyalists to some other political faction.

Or their solution is "DO THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF WHAT YOU'RE DOING!", and the moment someone actually listens to that, they criticize them again for doing the opposite.

Since you mentioned the oil spill:
If the President reacted quickly, he'll get criticized for pushing big government onto the oil market
If the President reacted slowly, he'll get criticized for not doing enough using government resources
If the President doesn't do anything, he'll get criticized for not caring about the environment
If the President does EVERYTHING, he'll get criticized for being a pushy environmentalist who doesn't care about people

This is the exact situation that BioWare is in. No matter what they do, someone will complain without ever coming up with an idea on how to change it. So what does BioWare actually do as a result? Nothing. They have their own creative process, and they don't need people's complaints on how to change things.

Modifié par Ecael, 28 mai 2010 - 01:11 .

[Terror_K]

Ecael wrote...

Particular point, but not a particular solution. If you can get everyone to agree to a solution, then BioWare will certainly take it into consideration. However, since us BioWare forumgoers only represent a small minority, any kind of disagreement will nix the idea.

Well, while there may not be definite solutions people agree on, there are a lot of people out there who believe the answers to many issues lie somewhere in the middle of how both games approached things. And there's always going to be somebody who comes along and disagrees with something, even if it is one person in a million. I've seen it happen here before: somebody presents a solution to a problem, there's about twenty people who post agreement and sometimes offer little suggestions, and then poster number 21 comes along and says they hate it and it would ruin Mass Effect 3 for them.

I posted this in another thread as an example:

For example: There's a lot of complaining about planet-scanning. A very small amount of people like planet-scanning (including some critics, I don't why), but they say it could be faster. What does BioWare do?

1. Release a patch to make planet-scanning much faster
2. Announce that they're keeping planet-scanning in ME3

Who do you think they're listening to at this point?

I'd like to think the answer to that is "all the people who complained that BioWare simply threw out problems in ME1 rather than fix them" in this case.

[Ecael]

Terror_K wrote...

I'd like to think the answer to that is "all the people who complained that BioWare simply threw out problems in ME1 rather than fix them" in this case.

Except many of the people on this forum would want to see it gone, not just changed. That wasn't the case in ME1.

Modifié par Ecael, 28 mai 2010 - 01:14 .

[MassEffect762]

ME1 fans disappointed with ME2.(joking)

www.youtube.com/watch

ME2 fans upset with the whining.(joking)

www.youtube.com/watch

:happy:<_<

[Terror_K]

Ecael wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

I'd like to think the answer to that is "all the people who complained that BioWare simply threw out problems in ME1 rather than fix them" in this case.

Except many of the people on this forum would want to see it gone, not just changed. That wasn't the case in ME1.

Yes, I do kind of find that ironic: when the fans want something gone, it stays and changes. When they want something to stay but be changed, it goes.

Personally I'd rather the planet scanning be fixed, but I'd rather see it go if it becomes far too simple to the point of becoming an instant gimme. And I still think the best mini-game in any Mass Effect was the circular frogger from the ME1 PC conversion: it was short, simple and yet well balanced according to the difficulty of the lock and your tech skill and could be failed. The ME2 minigames are either just grindy (planet scanning) or too easy (the hacking and decryption games).

[Ecael]

Terror_K wrote...

Ecael wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

I'd like to think the answer to that is "all the people who complained that BioWare simply threw out problems in ME1 rather than fix them" in this case.

Except many of the people on this forum would want to see it gone, not just changed. That wasn't the case in ME1.

Yes, I do kind of find that ironic: when the fans want something gone, it stays and changes. When they want something to stay but be changed, it goes.

You also have to compare what the critics say in the reviews - a lot of them hated something, and it was gone. Whatever they liked ended up staying.

BioWare will give more weight to those critics unless the forum can unanimously agree on something. Like this, for example:

http://social.biowar...5/index/2656020

It's a simple solution, yes, but it needed to be illustrated in a manner that everyone will like.

Personally I'd rather the planet scanning be fixed, but I'd rather see it go if it becomes far too simple to the point of becoming an instant gimme. And I still think the best mini-game in any Mass Effect was the circular frogger from the ME1 PC conversion: it was short, simple and yet well balanced according to the difficulty of the lock and your tech skill and could be failed. The ME2 minigames are either just grindy (planet scanning) or too easy (the hacking and decryption games).

I've never liked any of the mini-games in western RPGs - the ones from some JRPGs (Final Fantasy VIII and Final Fantasy X) were extremely addictive, though.

[A_y0ner_]

I think ME2 was just missing NPC citizens.

I feel like ME1 was more immersive because it had citizens approach you with their problems, have you fly out across the galaxy and eventually meet other NPCs and have you make a decision on their lives.

It felt like a real galaxy and it let the player actually meet citizens of this galaxy and impact their lives.

ME2 was totally lacking that. It felt like a huge universe with a population of 10 people.



Just one reason why I believe ME1 was more immersive than ME2

[Ecael]

A_y0ner_ wrote...

I think ME2 was just missing NPC citizens.
I feel like ME1 was more immersive because it had citizens approach you with their problems, have you fly out across the galaxy and eventually meet other NPCs and have you make a decision on their lives.
It felt like a real galaxy and it let the player actually meet citizens of this galaxy and impact their lives.
ME2 was totally lacking that. It felt like a huge universe with a population of 10 people.

Just one reason why I believe ME1 was more immersive than ME2

Since your avatar is Wrex - find me a krogan in ME1 other than Wrex with as much personality as these krogan:

Wrex - Smiles and is overjoyed to see Shepard
YouTube Link (should have hugged Shepard!)

Grunt - Acts like a 5 year old who is proud to have learned the alphabet
YouTube Link 1
YouTube Link 2 (his comment on holding the line)

Urdnot Darg, the krogan badass:
YouTube Link (RAAAAH!)

Charr, the krogan poet:
YouTube Link (includes Tuchanka scene)

Kargesh, as the happiest Krogan ever:
YouTube Link

Kargesh, as the saddest Krogan ever:
YouTube Link

The Patriarch, Aria's aging pet:
YouTube Link 1 (Paragon)
YouTube Link 2 (Renegade)

Mr. Thax's Bodyguard, the krogan gentleman:
YouTube Link

Tank-Grown Krogan:
YouTube Link (you are damaged?)

Urdnot Father, yearning to see his son (quite a sentimental moment):
YouTube Link - Part 1
YouTube Link - Part 2

Urdnot Fortack, after Wrex took away his toys:
YouTube Link

Urdnot Shaman, the epic stare, and the epic laugh:
YouTube Link

Urdnot Mechanic, his sunny disposition, Quarians, and Wrex:
YouTube Link 1
YouTube Link 2

Even a Varren is made adorable:
YouTube Link

Modifié par Ecael, 28 mai 2010 - 02:06 .

[Terror_K]

Ecael wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

Yes, I do kind of find that ironic: when the fans want something gone, it stays and changes. When they want something to stay but be changed, it goes.

You also have to compare what the critics say in the reviews - a lot of them hated something, and it was gone. Whatever they liked ended up staying.

Exactly. Which just proved that while BioWare claims to listen to its fans, it listens to professional generic critics much, much more. Which is why they seemed to have missed the points entirely about the real issues regarding elevators and The Mako in the original game. The loading screens and Hammerhead just prove this even moreso.

[Ecael]

Terror_K wrote...

Ecael wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

Yes, I do kind of find that ironic: when the fans want something gone, it stays and changes. When they want something to stay but be changed, it goes.

You also have to compare what the critics say in the reviews - a lot of them hated something, and it was gone. Whatever they liked ended up staying.

Exactly. Which just proved that while BioWare claims to listen to its fans, it listens to professional generic critics much, much more. Which is why they seemed to have missed the points entirely about the real issues regarding elevators and The Mako in the original game. The loading screens and Hammerhead just prove this even moreso.

BioWare listens to complaints from critics, because it affects their score.

BioWare listens to ideas from players, because it's good feedback and leaves room for improvement.

This forum doesn't need more critics.