10273 réponses à ce sujet

[Christmas Ape]

Darth Drago wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...
Ally AI stupidity in ME2 isn't rare, but in ME1 OH-HO! God is it ridicilous.

I’ll take my ME1 AI over the ME2 one any day of the week. There have been more than a few times where I’m left alone because the crappy ME2 AI has my 2 squad mates move to some stupid location, usually not even close to the fight.

I'm compelled to disagree with your preference, for my own sake. Never once in ME2 have I found myself shouting at the screen with the same complaint I had every other mission in ME1, that it would be a whole lot easier to snipe this mercenary from 200m if Wrex would just stop SHOTGUNNING ME IN THE BACK OF THE HEAD.

[Ecael]

Darth Drago wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...
Ally AI stupidity in ME2 isn't rare, but in ME1 OH-HO! God is it ridicilous.

I’ll take my ME1 AI over the ME2 one any day of the week. There have been more than a few times where I’m left alone because the crappy ME2 AI has my 2 squad mates move to some stupid location, usually not even close to the fight.

Don't forget squadmates pulling Abominations and FENRIS mechs toward you to explode on top of your squad.

The AI wasn't exactly an improvement, but it's not like Mass Effect 1 was any better. It's not a priority in BioWare games.

[superimposed]

Aye. Bioware make excellent... err... "gambit" (FFXII) systems, but their NPC AI is a little lacking.

[bjdbwea]

Ecael wrote...

The AI wasn't exactly an improvement, but it's not like Mass Effect 1 was any better. It's not a priority in BioWare games.

It's not a priority in most games, with it being very hard to program.

But you're of course right, BioWare games never had particularly good AI. And it was absolutely right not to make it a priority. However, when you start to put so much focus on combat, you better also invest into the AI part. You can of course cheat and give the enemies unlimited ammo, and you can dumb down the required "thinking processes" by enforcing cover-based combat (reducing the possible movements and tactics the AI has to react to). But chances are you'll still end up with cannon fodder enemies and have to start spamming respawning enemies to make it any challenge at all. And that's what happened in ME 2.

Bottom line: BioWare should just concentrate on their strengths (RPG and story telling), then no one will really care about mediocre shooting parts or bad AI.

[CroGamer002]

Ecael wrote...

Darth Drago wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...
Ally AI stupidity in ME2 isn't rare, but in ME1 OH-HO! God is it ridicilous.

I’ll take my ME1 AI over the ME2 one any day of the week. There have been more than a few times where I’m left alone because the crappy ME2 AI has my 2 squad mates move to some stupid location, usually not even close to the fight.

Don't forget squadmates pulling Abominations and FENRIS mechs toward you to explode on top of your squad.

The AI wasn't exactly an improvement, but it's not like Mass Effect 1 was any better. It's not a priority in BioWare games.

Never happend to me eather( mainly because I rearly use Jacob and never upgrade other Biotics with Pull).

[Lumikki]

bjdbwea wrote...

Bottom line: BioWare should just concentrate on their strengths (RPG and story telling), then no one will really care about mediocre shooting parts or bad AI.

That's not really true. If this game would have been pure RPG, I would never had played it. Dont' get me wrong, I actually like RPG more than some shooters. But that's not why I did choose this game. Most important is the impression and feeling player gets from game, like does the game pull your interest in it. The cinematic voice acting with good enough graphics and sound did the job well.

When I did choose Mass Effect 2, what I buyed first. It was because the cinematic action playing style while telling story.  If the shooter side would been worst, I don't think I would have buyed Mass Effect 1 at all. Mostly because over 50% of both Mass Effects content is about combat.

As for AI, I think it got the job done. There where small differences between ME1 and ME2, but not anything really major. Squad members where little more aggressive in ME2 and enemy npcs where trying to close combat more in ME1. If someone is complayning AI, I can only say it was good enough on both games to get job done.

Modifié par Lumikki, 30 mai 2010 - 12:15 .

[Darth Drago]

Mesina2 wrote...

Darth Drago wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...
Ally AI stupidity in ME2 isn't rare, but in ME1 OH-HO! God is it ridicilous.

I’ll take my ME1 AI over the ME2 one any day of the week. There have been more than a few times where I’m left alone because the crappy ME2 AI has my 2 squad mates move to some stupid location, usually not even close to the fight.

-Jack’s loyalty mission when you run into the pack of Varren is one such place. My so called squad went toward the door we came in at.
-Thane’s recruiting mission is another. On one level my squad went down the ramp we just came up.

*mild spoiler below*


Its bad enough half the time they seem to have a death wish by running towards the enemy. Got to love Kasumi using her Shadow Strike outside the protection bubble during the mission you bring a biotic in the final battles.

1st better that they are all over the place then in your aim like in ME1
2nd never happend to me on ME2, but similiar on ME1
3rd you don't die when you leave buble same second and that's not AI problem

1. That’s why you use Squad Orders to put them out of the way.

2. Must have a different version of the game than you because in the 4 runs through the game the Jacks loyalty one happened 3 times. The Thane one happened in my last game and I had one on Mordin’s loyalty mission where something similar happened.

3. Maybe not an AI problem granted but it sure looks stupid to see her sneak out to attack someone way out of the shield and then get pestered by the bugs as she works her way back.

Christmas Ape wrote...
I'm compelled to disagree with your preference, for my own sake. Never once in ME2 have I found myself shouting at the screen with the same complaint I had every other mission in ME1, that it would be a whole lot easier to snipe this mercenary from 200m if Wrex would just stop SHOTGUNNING ME IN THE BACK OF THE HEAD.

-See no. 1 above. I never had a problem with someone getting in my way because I positioned them out of the way, usually over 20 feet and sometimes directly into the line of fire to draw attention from me.

I find myself wondering at times if my squad mates got the maniac AI programming from ME1. You know the one I’m talking about, where a enemy runs up to you with a sniper rifle and cant decide to shoot at you or beat you with it. Grunt I can understand charging into the enemy fire, he’s a Krogan and that’s almost genetically imprinted on them. But the rest of them doing stupid things?

Ecael wrote...

Don't forget squadmates pulling Abominations and FENRIS mechs toward you to explode on top of your squad.

The AI wasn't exactly an improvement, but it's not like Mass Effect 1 was any better. It's not a priority in BioWare games.

-How true. I learned after my first game after having a squad mate use that stupid power while I was behind cover with a fraction of health left. As you can guess whatever it was he pulled landed right next to me and killed me. I have never leveled that power since.

Who came up wit that power anyway? It seems like the worst one to use in any combat situation.

“Hey, there is some more mercs over there! I’ll pull them right over here on our side so we can hopefully kill them all before they land on us or at least swap health insurance info. Oh and if they are mech’s watch out because it may explode on you.”

Modifié par Darth Drago, 30 mai 2010 - 12:17 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

Pull reacts differently depending on the angle it hits the target. If you angle it over an obstacle it pretty much is lift, around it brings them to the side. Straight line no angle brings them right at you.

However it does suck for a squadmate because it always reacts as a straight line.

Modifié par Onyx Jaguar, 30 mai 2010 - 12:19 .

[Darth Drago]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Pull reacts differently depending on the angle it hits the target. If you angle it over an obstacle it pretty much is lift, around it brings them to the side. Straight line no angle brings them right at you.

However it does suck for a squadmate because it always reacts as a straight line.

I personally have never used it for Shepard. It just seems like a bad power to use in combat where guns are used. If this was a spell for Dragon Age it wouldn’t be so bad actually.

If I was a developer for ME2 I would have rigged some of the mechs with a large explosive that would go off in about 10 seconds (a quick guess since I haven’t paid attention to how long it takes for them to hover towards you) after getting lifted off the ground a few feet and moved without using their legs. Now that I think on it and after seeing the flaming husks I wonder why no one thought of that? Its a simple anti biotic weapon.


 

[CroGamer002]

Darth Drago wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Darth Drago wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...
Ally AI stupidity in ME2 isn't rare, but in ME1 OH-HO! God is it ridicilous.

I’ll take my ME1 AI over the ME2 one any day of the week. There have been more than a few times where I’m left alone because the crappy ME2 AI has my 2 squad mates move to some stupid location, usually not even close to the fight.

-Jack’s loyalty mission when you run into the pack of Varren is one such place. My so called squad went toward the door we came in at.
-Thane’s recruiting mission is another. On one level my squad went down the ramp we just came up.

*mild spoiler below*


Its bad enough half the time they seem to have a death wish by running towards the enemy. Got to love Kasumi using her Shadow Strike outside the protection bubble during the mission you bring a biotic in the final battles.

1st better that they are all over the place then in your aim like in ME1
2nd never happend to me on ME2, but similiar on ME1
3rd you don't die when you leave buble same second and that's not AI problem

1. That’s why you use Squad Orders to put them out of the way.

2. Must have a different version of the game than you because in the 4 runs through the game the Jacks loyalty one happened 3 times. The Thane one happened in my last game and I had one on Mordin’s loyalty mission where something similar happened.

3. Maybe not an AI problem granted but it sure looks stupid to see her sneak out to attack someone way out of the shield and then get pestered by the bugs as she works her way back.

1st it's still a problem!
2nd Did you patch the game?
3rd well if is that so big problem to you just don't use her.

[tonnactus]

bjdbwea wrote...
 But as you said, Oblivion had a proper inventory, Fallout 3 too. They even presented a proper combination of RPG and action combat. And both apparently sold well on consoles too, plus the DLCs were successful too. So if there's a significant number of console players who can appreciate proper RPG elements and combat beyond pew-pew, then why did BioWare/EA feel the need to dumb the game down so much in the first place?

I dont know.Fallout and Oblivion have better sales then the Mass Effect series.(even on the xbox)

When i remeber it right,those games also sold better on consoles then pcs.

[tonnactus]

uberdowzen wrote...


You really need to stop complaining about the protection system. You're implying that as a biotic character you never needed to use a gun in ME1.

No,i want that a biotic could do what his role is-work as one that controls the crowd.Is able to take dangerous enemies out of the fight for some time.Like in the first game.I dont want to kill enemies with powers only,i want to control the battlefield. That is just a  fair trade because combat classes get very high weapon damage with acess to weapons like the revenant and adrenalin rush.

And should I also remind you that most RPGs (including ME1, I think, don't quote me on that) have some sort of resistance system meaning that spells don't always work.

You are righ about Mass Effect.Krogan warlords and battlemasters have resistances against biotics that reduces for example their lift duration.However, there is a difference between resistence and a nearly complete immunity to powers like in the "sequel".

And Harbinger isn't the main boss, he's just a tough enemy you fight throughout the game.

He is boss/sub-boss,like the geth prime or the heavy mech. Resistences are ok.A nearly completly immunity(dont bother me with the little reduction of armor and shields) isnt it.

[tonnactus]

uberdowzen wrote...

tonnactus wrote...

Well,at least rockets and snipers could still kill you.
Rockets in MAss Effect 2.Sit in cover for 2 seconds.

Because it's amazingly fun losing 10 minutes of progress because you make one tiny mistake.

Thats the sense of higher difficulties.

[tonnactus]

[quote]KitsuneRommel wrote...

[quote]tonnactus wrote...

Ah, yes. "AI". They are going to need a LOT of support.
[/quote]

This never happen in my game.But i didnt use ashley very often anyways.


[quote]
You just have to be faster than them. I'm not sure when was the last time I got hit by a sabotage or dampening. Last biotic was in Noveria and I ended up stuck in a stairway. That's because you don't even have to be in LOS to pull half of the enemies with singularity.[/quote]

You didnt have "Bringing down the sky"?Because there it is next to impossible not to be getting hit by damping,sabotage and neural shock.

[tonnactus]

Darth Drago wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...
Ally AI stupidity in ME2 isn't rare, but in ME1 OH-HO! God is it ridicilous.

I’ll take my ME1 AI over the ME2 one any day of the week. There have been more than a few times where I’m left alone because the crappy ME2 AI has my 2 squad mates move to some stupid location, usually not even close to the fight.

-Jack’s loyalty mission when you run into the pack of Varren is one such place. My so called squad went toward the door we came in at.
-Thane’s recruiting mission is another. On one level my squad went down the ramp we just came up.

*mild spoiler below*


Its bad enough half the time they seem to have a death wish by running towards the enemy. Got to love Kasumi using her Shadow Strike outside the protection bubble during the mission you bring a biotic in the final battles.

I just add the mission on the planet with the fog and the klixxen.Squadmates like to run run like 100 m forward.

[tonnactus]

Christmas Ape wrote...

Darth Drago wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...
Ally AI stupidity in ME2 isn't rare, but in ME1 OH-HO! God is it ridicilous.

I’ll take my ME1 AI over the ME2 one any day of the week. There have been more than a few times where I’m left alone because the crappy ME2 AI has my 2 squad mates move to some stupid location, usually not even close to the fight.

I'm compelled to disagree with your preference, for my own sake. Never once in ME2 have I found myself shouting at the screen with the same complaint I had every other mission in ME1, that it would be a whole lot easier to snipe this mercenary from 200m if Wrex would just stop SHOTGUNNING ME IN THE BACK OF THE HEAD.

Use some squad commands like hold.

[MassEffect762]

[/quote]tonnactus  wrote...


I just add the mission on the planet with the fog and the klixxen.Squadmates like to run run like 100 m forward.

[/quote]

I can verify that too, played it last night.

Modifié par MassEffect762, 30 mai 2010 - 06:09 .

[KitsuneRommel]

tonnactus wrote...

This never happen in my game.But i didnt use ashley very often anyways.

I didn't use the squad commands that often because I generally only paused to change weapons. ME1 could really have used the squad command system from ME2. In that particular case Ashley didn't even change target after I tried to make her shoot that Husk.

You didnt have "Bringing down the sky"?Because there it is next to impossible not to be getting hit by damping,sabotage and neural shock.

I own both DLCs (even the *shudder* Pinnacle Station), but I completed it before Noveria anyway. I have to say it was a lot easier with Adept than with Vanguard.

[uberdowzen]

tonnactus wrote...

No,i want that a biotic could do what his role is-work as one that controls the crowd.Is able to take dangerous enemies out of the fight for some time.Like in the first game.I dont want to kill enemies with powers only,i want to control the battlefield. That is just a  fair trade because combat classes get very high weapon damage with acess to weapons like the revenant and adrenalin rush.

Since when has crowd control beeen the job of biotics? It's not what I used them for in ME1.

You are righ about Mass Effect.Krogan warlords and battlemasters have resistances against biotics that reduces for example their lift duration.However, there is a difference between resistence and a nearly complete immunity to powers like in the "sequel".

Why does it matter? It's not like the game becomes wildly unbalanced because of this. ME2 has a completely different combat system to ME1, mechanics from the first game probably aren't going to work in the new game.

He is boss/sub-boss,like the geth prime or the heavy mech. Resistences are ok.A nearly completly immunity(dont bother me with the little reduction of armor and shields) isnt it.

No I disagreee, he's just a slightly tougher Collector enemy. You're implying he's hard to kill. And as an Adept you can use warp on him so what's the problem.

[uberdowzen]

tonnactus wrote...

Thats the sense of higher difficulties.

Yeah, but this happens at every difficulty except perhaps casual.

[uberdowzen]

I was thinking about how some people say that there were heaps of people on the old forum complaining about how the game wasn't shootery enough. Even if this did happen how are there opinions any less valid than yours? They're obviously fans of the game as they've taken their time to create a Bioware forum account and state their point of view. How come your opinion is so much more important than their's?

[Pocketgb]

Darth Drago wrote...

Who came up wit that power anyway? It seems like the worst one to use in any combat situation...

It's decent to help get some bad guys out of cover, or to help you get a clearer shot. Rarely has there been a time where I've pulled and not easily killed someone.

uberdowzen wrote...

Because it's amazingly fun losing 10 minutes of progress because you make one tiny mistake.

That's less an issue of the actual difficulty and more the fact that a game has a lame-ass checkpoint system. I miss my days of being able to quicksave whenever and wherever I want People are calling Bayonetta awesome for the fact that it has mid-boss checkpoints, when Doom freaking had that YEARS ago with quicksave + quickload.

Modifié par Pocketgb, 30 mai 2010 - 08:51 .

[Shockwave81]

How quickly I forget how wonderful ME1 was. This sequence contains more awesome than anything I can remember from ME2:



The ME2 debris field cutscene has absolutely nothing on that.

[bjdbwea]

uberdowzen wrote...

I was thinking about how some people say that there were heaps of people on the old forum complaining about how the game wasn't shootery enough. Even if this did happen how are there opinions any less valid than yours?

Yes, they are. There are dozens of shooters every year, including many good ones, but good RPGs are very rare. So if they want shooter gameplay, just pick up one of the dozens of shooters. Don't go and try to take over another gaming series. Do I go to any FPS forums and demand more RPG elements? No, I do not. The developers would laugh about the notion anyway, just like BioWare should have resisted the demands.

But of course the reason an FPS developer would reject the demand, is because adding RPG elements would mean more work for them, whereas removing RPG elements meant less work for BioWare. And in effect lower costs and an earlier release date.

uberdowzen wrote...

They're obviously fans of the game as they've taken their time to create a Bioware forum account and state their point of view. How come your opinion is so much more important than their's?

A fan of what made ME 1 great would not demand BioWare sacrifice everything else for "better" combat. Only people who aren't actually fans of the game - and its content - but of shooting stuff would do that.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 30 mai 2010 - 09:00 .

[Ecael]

[quote]bjdbwea wrote...

[quote]uberdowzen wrote...

I was thinking about how some people say that there were heaps of people on the old forum complaining about how the game wasn't shootery enough. Even if this did happen how are there opinions any less valid than yours?[/quote]

Yes, they are. There are dozens of shooters every year, including many good ones, but good RPGs are very rare. So if they want shooter gameplay, just pick up one of the dozens of shooters. Don't go and try to take over another gaming series. Do I go to any FPS forums and demand more RPG elements? No, I do not. The developers would laugh about the notion anyway, just like BioWare should have resisted the demands.[/quote]
Isn't saying that there are many good shooters and not many good RPGs also an opinion reliant on having played all these games, though?

Saying that there are no good RPGs outside of past BioWare games would be a dangerous thing for an RPG fan. If that were the case, BioWare would have no incentive to keep their RPGs "pure" of other genres. With no real competition, there's no need to appeal only to RPG fans, because they don't have a choice but to buy it to get their RPG fix.

That's what confuses me about those who say that BioWare shouldn't be like EA and care about money, but then threaten not to give them their money by boycotting their games. It's counter-intuitive in two ways:

1. It makes the statement that all the consumer cares about is money, and thus the business should as well

2. If there aren't any alternatives out there, why would BioWare believe that the one boycotting would just walk away from all RPGs?

[quote]But of course the reason an FPS developer would reject the demand, is because adding RPG elements would mean more work for them, whereas removing RPG elements meant less work for BioWare. And in effect lower costs and an earlier release date.[/quote]
Light RPG elements for Gears of War 3

"The thing that was cool was that Mass Effect is kind of an RPG for me, with the cover-based shooting. I think there's a reason why it's been successful. Because gamers love Gears"

The only thing Epic Games - the makers of the Unreal Engine - needs to define a game as a shooter is cover, shooting, and the use of the Unreal Engine. That's a very broad generalization that would include both Mass Effect 1 and Mass Effect 2. However, there are some very broad generalizations on Mass Effect 2 that are made on this forum in the first place.

[quote]uberdowzen wrote...

They're obviously fans of the game as they've taken their time to create a Bioware forum account and state their point of view. How come your opinion is so much more important than their's?[/quote]

A fan of what made ME 1 great would not demand BioWare sacrifice everything else for "better" combat. Only people who aren't actually fans of the game - and its content - but of shooting stuff would do that.[/quote]
So people aren't true BioWare fans because they don't like the direction BioWare is taking with one series? They still have Dragon Age and The Old Republic.

But - as I mentioned above - if BioWare really was the only company that made great RPGs, then there's no need to cater just to RPG fans.

Modifié par Ecael, 30 mai 2010 - 09:25 .