10273 réponses à ce sujet

[SithLordExarKun]

bjdbwea wrote...

Common sense and knowledge of how this industry works. You want to believe EA is a charity, feel free to do so.

Truth is, EA owns BioWare, you actually can't separate them. Whether the people who called the shots are technically employed by "BioWare" or "EA" doesn't matter anyway as far as the result is concerned. Most likely it was both.

I'm actually giving the good people from BioWare credit here, as I for one don't believe for a second that ME 2 was initially planned to be like this, when they outlined the trilogy once. These are still the same people who created so many milestones in gaming history after all. If they could do as they wanted, I am very sure ME 2 would have been very different.

Again how is this solid concrete evidence that EA was responsible for ME2 turning out the way it is? First off about thew watered down romance, that wasn't EA's decision, that was bioware's considering that EA's other game(the saboteur) shows full frontal nudity.

They DID do as they wanted, seeing there is absolutely no evidence to even point at EA making the decisions, do you remember the large thread in the original forum where they(bioware, not EA) asked for ME2 suggestions?  Many people complained that the inventory system and barren worlds were tedious, and guess what, they removed it. Hmm was EA the one telling them to do that? No, they didn't.

Don't pull assumptions out of your ass just because the game didn't turn out the way you wanted it to be.  Hell with your constant nit picking and "constructive critisicm", why don't you try to make a better game, or better yet pop the ME1 disc into your console and enjoy it?

[uberdowzen]

bjdbwea wrote...

For your information: DA has been in development for years before EA took over. A great game indeed. Still mostly developed by what I would call the "old" BioWare. But yes, even there it is obvious some changes were enforced later. And if you look at Awakening now, it has lost a lot of what made DA great. Similar to what happened with ME 2. Coincidence?

Firstly, I really don't get the Awakening Hate. I have heard a lot of people saying it's buggy, I can't really comment on this because I only experienced one bug but I do take it into account when deciding whether it's a good expanison and I've decided it is. It did what it said on the packet, it was a 30 hour long Dragon Age adventure which I had a good time with.

Secondly, you're saying that the inventory and the plot structure are what made ME1 a game great? I'm talking from experience here, but what I loved about the game was the engaging story, the art direction, the OK-quite-fun combat and the choices. ME2 preserves all of those and improves on them.

And if EA only let Bioware finish Dragon Age (I assume your reasoning is that EA figured now that it was close to being done they might as well let them finish before turning them into slaves) why did they allow Bioware to make an expansion, a second unannouced DA project (I'm guessing a second expansion, possibly finishing the Warden's story) and a sequel?

[uberdowzen]

SithLordExarKun wrote...

Again how is this solid concrete evidence that EA was responsible for ME2 turning out the way it is? First off about thew watered down romance, that wasn't EA's decision, that was bioware's considering that EA's other game(the saboteur) shows full frontal nudity.

They DID do as they wanted, seeing there is absolutely no evidence to even point at EA making the decisions, do you remember the large thread in the original forum where they(bioware, not EA) asked for ME2 suggestions?  Many people complained that the inventory system and barren worlds were tedious, and guess what, they removed it. Hmm was EA the one telling them to do that? No, they didn't.

Don't pull assumptions out of your ass just because the game didn't turn out the way you wanted it to be.  Hell with your constant nit picking and "constructive critisicm", why don't you try to make a better game, or better yet pop the ME1 disc into your console and enjoy it?

This.

[Ecael]

bjdbwea wrote...

For your information: DA has been in development for years before EA took over. A great game indeed. Still mostly developed by what I would call the "old" BioWare. But yes, even there it is obvious some changes were enforced later. And if you look at Awakening now, it has lost a lot of what made DA great. Similar to what happened with ME 2. Coincidence?

The final boss of ME1 and the original unmodified mind-meld CGI scene hinted at the Collectors' origins as well as the origin of a Reaper in ME2. Thus, the main plot for ME2 was decided before EA or even Microsoft took over to publish the game.

Coincidence?

Jestina wrote...

You forgot about gear, ME2 has next to nothing. You forgot about condensed character stats. You forgot that ME is way more open ended than ME2. To me, it seemed like there was way more to do in ME...I can get through ME2 in probably just a day compared to 3 for ME.

Using equivalent minutes worth of goodyatheart's and padawanmage71's ME1 and ME2 playthrough videos:

http://www.youtube.c...er/goodyatheart

49 - Eden Prime
44 - Therum (Liara)
60.5 - Virmire
40 - Ilos
31 - Final Mission (Cit-Saren)

Total: 224.5 minutes

28 - Lazarus
24.5 - Freedom's Progress
44 - Horizon
38 - Derelict Ship
42 - IFF/Normandy
66.5 - Final Mission

Total: 243 minutes

Those missions combined are approximately the same amount of minutes. With the leftover main missions we have:

Feros (without side missions), Noveria (without side missions)
vs.

8 recruitment missions and 12 loyalty missions (without side missions at hub worlds)

Feros/Noveria vs. 20 recruitment/loyalty missions.

Unless you "explored" some side planets by driving around the same square mile of empty terrain for 30 minutes every time, there's no way Mass Effect 1 could be longer than Mass Effect 2.

Mass Effect 1 can't be more open-ended than Mass Effect 2 either. To unlock Virmire, you were forced to complete two missions, and then complete the next two to unlock Ilos.

In Mass Effect 2, you were forced to complete four missions to unlock Horizon. After, you recruit any 8 squadmates minimum and do any 5 missions (side, loyalty or remaining recruitment) to unlock the Vessel. After the Vessel, you are free to do the IFF mission at any time, and even after the events that unfold with 2 missions after that, you're still free to do whatever you want - but with consequences.

For gear, you'd have to count the number of weapons that actually differed in more than just retexture and changes to accuracy/heat generation in order to say that Mass Effect 2 had "no gear".

5 playthroughs of ME1 as an Engineer and my pistol (which is the only weapon I can use proficiently other than grenades) still sounds and behaves the same as one I got when I first started.

Modifié par Ecael, 31 mai 2010 - 09:59 .

[uberdowzen]

Jestina wrote...

I would think PC games would be their market. Consoles have gotten way too expensive. I'm a second gen console player and I haven't even got a seventh gen system yet. The main shift is with companies catering to casual gamers. ME at least had some elements of RPG's and more freedom, but traditional RPGs are becoming harder and harder to find.

We're sinking back into the days of button mashing.

www.spiderwebsoftware.com/

dragonage.bioware.com/

risen.deepsilver.com

www.drakensang.com/

fallout.bethsoft.com

www.alphaprotocol.com

Yep, traditional RPGs are dying.

[Ecael]

Jestina wrote...

I would think PC games would be their market. Consoles have gotten way too expensive. I'm a second gen console player and I haven't even got a seventh gen system yet. The main shift is with companies catering to casual gamers. ME at least had some elements of RPG's and more freedom, but traditional RPGs are becoming harder and harder to find.

We're sinking back into the days of button mashing.

And someone who hates RPGs and finds out that Gears of War 3 is going to have RPG elements would say:

"We're sinking back into the days of auto-attacking and attack menus!"

[bjdbwea]

So first you say the complaining against ME 1 was okay, but then you tell me to make my own game if I don't like ME 2? Yeah, no double standards there.



Oh, and are you sure people who complained about the clumsy inventory wanted to have it removed completely? Or the Mako? You don't think maybe, just maybe, people just wanted better controls and more diverse worlds? Let's face it, most complaints were a convenient excuse to do the dumbing down and cutting corners that was planned anyway.



And as I said before, I couldn't care less if it was "EA" or "BioWare" who made the decisions. I have any reason to suspect it was mainly EA's influence, but it doesn't matter. The end result is a mediocre story and writing (which is my main complaint) and a dumbed down gameplay (which I could live with if the rest were on par with ME 1).

[Ecael]

bjdbwea wrote...

So first you say the complaining against ME 1 was okay, but then you tell me to make my own game if I don't like ME 2? Yeah, no double standards there.

Oh, and are you sure people who complained about the clumsy inventory wanted to have it removed completely? Or the Mako? You don't think maybe, just maybe, people just wanted better controls and more diverse worlds? Let's face it, most complaints were a convenient excuse to do the dumbing down and cutting corners that was planned anyway.

And as I said before, I couldn't care less if it was "EA" or "BioWare" who made the decisions. I have any reason to suspect it was mainly EA's influence, but it doesn't matter. The end result is a mediocre story and writing (which is my main complaint) and a dumbed down gameplay (which I could live with if the rest were on par with ME 1).

So... you say that BioWare listened too closely to the negative feedback from ME1, and now you're giving feedback to BioWare that they shouldn't listen to too much feedback while giving negative feedback about ME2?



EDIT: BioWare seems to be listening to the first part - they don't seem to show up here anymore to collect new feedback.

Modifié par Ecael, 31 mai 2010 - 04:22 .

[AZ RUSH]

Jestina wrote...

You forgot about gear, ME2 has next to nothing. You forgot about condensed character stats. You forgot that ME is way more open ended than ME2. To me, it seemed like there was way more to do in ME...I can get through ME2 in probably just a day compared to 3 for ME.

You forgot that the majority of ME players (the forums are the minority) like ME2 more than ME1.

[SithLordExarKun]

bjdbwea wrote...

So first you say the complaining against ME 1 was okay, but then you tell me to make my own game if I don't like ME 2? Yeah, no double standards there.

Considering the rabid fanboyism of most ME1 fanboys(one of them including you), theres hardly anything for them to complain about the first game.

So yes, no double standards.

bjdbwea wrote...
Oh, and are you sure people who complained about the clumsy inventory wanted to have it removed completely? Or the Mako? You don't think maybe, just maybe, people just wanted better controls and more diverse worlds? Let's face it, most complaints were a convenient excuse to do the dumbing down and cutting corners that was planned anyway.

Again prove they have planned it already. Prove up or shut up which you have yet to do either. Obviously nobody wanted it removed, i didn't want the inventory system removed but most of us wanted it improved, they asked for our feed back, we gave it.

Yes, bioware did make a few mistakes, but trying to pin point EA as the sole cause of this without any proof is idiotic. And they did give more diverse worlds, most "worlds" on ME1 were hardly populated and most of the colonies felt empty and the galaxy felt lifeless, that changed in ME2.

bjdbwea wrote...
And as I said before, I couldn't care less if it was "EA" or "BioWare" who made the decisions. I have any reason to suspect it was mainly EA's influence, but it doesn't matter. The end result is a mediocre story and writing (which is my main complaint) and a dumbed down gameplay (which I could live with if the rest were on par with ME 1).

Yes, "dumbed" down gameplay indeed considering that i don't have enemies that charge at me like zombies in the first game as well as a much stronger shooter mechanic.

I just didn't like the decision to remove an inventory system rather than redesign it(still prefer ME2's lack of inventory to ME1's trash vendor).

ME1's story isn't really fanatstic either considering more than half the game you are just running around looking for saren.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Jestina wrote...

I would think PC games would be their market. Consoles have gotten way too expensive. I'm a second gen console player and I haven't even got a seventh gen system yet. The main shift is with companies catering to casual gamers. ME at least had some elements of RPG's and more freedom, but traditional RPGs are becoming harder and harder to find.

We're sinking back into the days of button mashing.

200 bucks for an Xbox isn't that expensive, considering some high end graphics cards can go for that price. 

Also companies catering to Casual gamers ins't necessarily true, they have tried to emulate Popcap and Nintendo but very rarely do any companies have success.  I would have loved to see how this conversation would have went over, about 10 years ago, with much of what is implied on this board.

[uberdowzen]

bjdbwea wrote...

So first you say the complaining against ME 1 was okay, but then you tell me to make my own game if I don't like ME 2? Yeah, no double standards there.

Oh, and are you sure people who complained about the clumsy inventory wanted to have it removed completely? Or the Mako? You don't think maybe, just maybe, people just wanted better controls and more diverse worlds? Let's face it, most complaints were a convenient excuse to do the dumbing down and cutting corners that was planned anyway.

And as I said before, I couldn't care less if it was "EA" or "BioWare" who made the decisions. I have any reason to suspect it was mainly EA's influence, but it doesn't matter. The end result is a mediocre story and writing (which is my main complaint) and a dumbed down gameplay (which I could live with if the rest were on par with ME 1).

I don't play games on console, but I doubt there was any easy way to fix the inventory on 360. And I've asked before, I'll ask again, what does sifting through hundreds of useless items add to Shepherd's epic struggle against the Reapers?

I'll admit that the story is not quite as good as ME1's but it's not bad. And how can you say the writing is bad? ME2 has better writing than ME1 by a long shot.

[bjdbwea]

Oh please, not the fanboy "argument". What are you then, constantly defending your favourite game? I actually didn't do that when people complained about ME 1, because I trusted BioWare. Don't you? Do you fear they will listen to those annoying RPG fans this time? Don't worry, that's unfortunately very unlikely.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 31 mai 2010 - 04:27 .

[AZ RUSH]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

200 bucks for an Xbox isn't that expensive, considering some high end graphics cards can go for that price. 

Also companies catering to Casual gamers ins't necessarily true, they have tried to emulate Popcap and Nintendo but very rarely do any companies have success.  I would have loved to see how this conversation would have went over, about 10 years ago, with much of what is implied on this board.

Please don't start a console war Onyx.  I look up to you, and I know you're better than that.

[Onyx Jaguar]

I don't care what they do with ME 3, it won't negate ME 2's existence.



rofl, mutlitasking, Playing Mass Effect 1 while defending Mass Effect 2

[Onyx Jaguar]

AZ RUSH wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

200 bucks for an Xbox isn't that expensive, considering some high end graphics cards can go for that price. 

Also companies catering to Casual gamers ins't necessarily true, they have tried to emulate Popcap and Nintendo but very rarely do any companies have success.  I would have loved to see how this conversation would have went over, about 10 years ago, with much of what is implied on this board.

Please don't start a console war Onyx.  I look up to you, and I know you're better than that.

I just want to tell everyone that they should play Peggle regardless of console

See I said PopCap, that is the key word, PopCap, not my failings in trying to upgrade my old ass computer

[Ecael]

worm_burner wrote...

uberdowzen wrote...

Secondly, you're saying that the inventory and the plot structure are what made ME1 a game great? I'm talking from experience here, but what I loved about the game was the engaging story, the art direction, the OK-quite-fun combat and the choices. ME2 preserves all of those and improves on them.

How in any way does ME2 improve on the plot.  ME2's plot was almost non-existent.  The combat itself was better in the second, but I'd rather have slower combat than if that means having a better story.  ME2's plot was garbage compared to what ME1 set up.  Its almost as if they forgot they made ME1 when making ME2.

ME1 set up several storylines in the galaxy, one of which - as I mentioned above - was the origins of the Collectors along with the origins of a Reaper. What happened to Saren and the mind-meld visions we saw hinted at this (even without the modification made in one of the N7 missions).

So if ME2's plot was garbage, then ME1's ability to set up a plot was garbage as well.

Modifié par Ecael, 31 mai 2010 - 04:30 .

[Iakus]

Ecael wrote...

bjdbwea wrote...

So first you say the complaining against ME 1 was okay, but then you tell me to make my own game if I don't like ME 2? Yeah, no double standards there.

Oh, and are you sure people who complained about the clumsy inventory wanted to have it removed completely? Or the Mako? You don't think maybe, just maybe, people just wanted better controls and more diverse worlds? Let's face it, most complaints were a convenient excuse to do the dumbing down and cutting corners that was planned anyway.

And as I said before, I couldn't care less if it was "EA" or "BioWare" who made the decisions. I have any reason to suspect it was mainly EA's influence, but it doesn't matter. The end result is a mediocre story and writing (which is my main complaint) and a dumbed down gameplay (which I could live with if the rest were on par with ME 1).

So... you say that BioWare listened too closely to the negative feedback from ME1, and now you're giving feedback to BioWare that they shouldn't listen too much feedback while giving negative feedback about ME2?

I wasn't around for the old ME 1 boards, so I don't knwo what exactly was being complained about, but I think te problem was:  Bioware performed surgery with a chainsaw.  Problems with the Mako?  Don't bother to refine it, cut it out completely!  Too much inventory, with poor sorting mechanics?  Throw it all out!  Clearly people aren't interesed in considering how to improve thier guns, it's cutting into shooting time!

No that's not what I think happened, but it sure gives that impression. 

Plus I cannot for the life of me understand how anyone could compare the two games side by side and not see how different they are.  ME 2 is supposed to be a continuation of ME 1 but it clearly isn't.  I can't explain why, but even with the writing credits, I find it hard to believe it was the same team. 

Man I wish there was a customer satisfaction survey I could fill out.

[uberdowzen]

worm_burner wrote...

How in any way does ME2 improve on the plot.  ME2's plot was almost non-existent.  The combat itself was better in the second, but I'd rather have slower combat than if that means having a better story.  ME2's plot was garbage compared to what ME1 set up.  Its almost as if they forgot they made ME1 when making ME2.

I didn't say the story, I said the story-telling. Story is what happens, story-telling is how it's told. ME2 made major strides in digital acting. And the plot wasn't garbage. It wasn't as good as ME1's and (I don't consider this a bad thing) there's a different pace to the story.

To people who didn't like ME2's story, ponder this: What actually happened in The Empire Strikes Back? You learnt that ***SPOILER***Darth Vader is Luke's Father***SPOILER***, Han got imprisoned and, um, I guess that was it. Not a lot, is it?

[AZ RUSH]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

I just want to tell everyone that they should play Peggle regardless of console

See I said PopCap, that is the key word, PopCap, not my failings in trying to upgrade my old ass computer

OK just remember PC and Xbox can get along.

[FieryDove]

ME2 vs ME1? What a heated debate.



Many people say the combat is better...maybe, IF this was a solo shooter.



Squadmates-

The squad constantly getting in front of me when I'm trying to pew-pew, jumping out of cover to in front of the cover to die, running across the map to shoot enemies etc.(Me1 wins)



Cover system-

I have seen many complaints about walking on air. If this is when Shepard gets stuck on TOP of objects then it's just a game-breaker for me. Too many times when the game snaps you to cover it seems to snap to the Top/middle of very tall objects and no way to get back down. This needs to be corrected asap. Imho (Me1 wins)



Power Balance or lack of.

Well Biotics finally became toned down a lot from ME1, not sure if people enjoy that or not. I rarely played them due to extreme OP. The Engineer could once again use a buff. Heh, how about they can by-pass all mini-games. I miss the bit about hacking genius...sigh



Next is power options...ammunition types as power choices? What? I can see why it had to be done, take that away and every class is left with what...two powers. The people saying dumbed-down would have even more fuel for the fire. (Me1 wins)



Some things just seems like we are going backwards in tech/lore/gameplay-wise. Thermal clips/ammo runs out now, fuel for ship now, ammo types are *powers* etc. (Me1 wins)



Mandatory mini-games are just the pits. You didn't think one is enough? I really hate these above everything else.They are time-padding the game and all become tedious and boring even if they are halfway decent. I want my omni-gel back to avoid them thanks. (Or a on/off toggle PLEASE) Planet scanning...holy cow...ugh (Me1 wins)



ME1 vs ME2 inventory. Well yes, there were complaints about the inventory and loot. But do you really throw the baby out with the bath water rather than try and tweak/fix it? List inventories are the pits, yes but having no inventory kind of well...It's just not right for an action/RPG/shooter/RPG whatever.



Customization

I really perferred choosing ammo types/mods to go into my weapons/armor. Some people complain about OP shooting all day and no over-heating with the right mods...so??? If that really was the issue wouldn't it stand to reason tweak the amount of buffs the mods gave to items rather than just abandon it all? Not everyone is an expert shooter and hunting about for clips/ammo is not my idea of *fun*.



I do like the armor customzation in ME2. Finally some color choices and a very nice variety too...thank you! Is that enough to outweigh the rest? Sadly no.



The new and returning companions are all excellent additions to the game. I like all of them very much, and was very happy to see Garrus and Tali again as team members.



The original game just had a more epic feel and more RPG qualities. ME2 just seems like...less on everything except pew-pew.



All of the above is my opinion, if yours differs no need to flame. Your opinion is not any more valid than mine or anyone elses.



I wonder if Bio even reads a huge thread like this to gather feedback...

[Ecael]

iakus wrote...

I wasn't around for the old ME 1 boards, so I don't knwo what exactly was being complained about, but I think te problem was:  Bioware performed surgery with a chainsaw.  Problems with the Mako?  Don't bother to refine it, cut it out completely!  Too much inventory, with poor sorting mechanics?  Throw it all out!  Clearly people aren't interesed in considering how to improve thier guns, it's cutting into shooting time!

No that's not what I think happened, but it sure gives that impression. 

Plus I cannot for the life of me understand how anyone could compare the two games side by side and not see how different they are.  ME 2 is supposed to be a continuation of ME 1 but it clearly isn't.  I can't explain why, but even with the writing credits, I find it hard to believe it was the same team. 

Man I wish there was a customer satisfaction survey I could fill out.

And now BioWare's using a chainsaw to cut through the feedback since people are complaining about their overreaction to feedback.

I've played both games 7-8 times through and I could compare every aspect and still see it as the same. And that doesn't include the playthroughs where I try to skip all the combat as much as possible to get to the dialogue.

[Iakus]

worm_burner wrote...

uberdowzen wrote...

Secondly, you're saying that the inventory and the plot structure are what made ME1 a game great? I'm talking from experience here, but what I loved about the game was the engaging story, the art direction, the OK-quite-fun combat and the choices. ME2 preserves all of those and improves on them.

How in any way does ME2 improve on the plot.  ME2's plot was almost non-existent.  The combat itself was better in the second, but I'd rather have slower combat than if that means having a better story.  ME2's plot was garbage compared to what ME1 set up.  Its almost as if they forgot they made ME1 when making ME2.

Qualified this.  Some fo the recruitment/loyalty missions were quite good.  But overall, yeah they forgot about linking ME 1 to ME 2 until the last moment and shoehorned that disappearing colonies thing to justfy Why Shepard's jaunt around the Terminus Systems.  Well, that's the impression I got anyway.