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Disappointment With Mass Effect 2? An Open Discussion.


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#3676
Lumikki

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Mesina2 wrote...

Can somebody give me a quick round down and tell me why ME2 sucks and those sucky stuff has nothing to do in compering to ME1?

ME2 did not suck, but there is possiblity improve it.

I agree with iaskus, the ME2 story lines had alot of plot holes, what put player think what hell just happen, like player is forced to invent missing story part by him/her self. I think I would also say main story was left little weak, because so much story was around squad members.

If You go technical way as gameplay design, then the problem could be.

I did not like how I wasn't able to customize my squad members armors, they all seem to run in battle and every where with same armors/cloths. Also the ability customize the powers your own and squad members was very limited and just combat related. I did not like so much picking clips from ground and there was way too many cover places every where in missions. I would have liked more natural cover possibilities, than so obvious design. Of course there was the mineral scanning, what could have done better, it feeled like seperated game.

Okey that's what come to my mind at the moment.

Modifié par Lumikki, 01 juin 2010 - 07:55 .


#3677
finnithe

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bjdbwea wrote...


Yeah. But a better comparison would be any random shooter. The ME 2 main story is very similar to the classic "not important let's get to shooting" story line. Yeah, you can click on some different dialogue choices, but nothing you say matters and neither Shepard nor TIM care at all about what you click on.

In fact, after the bad main story this totally uncaring Shepard is probably the second most annoying thing in my opinion. There's no character, and no character development. His only reaction to almost everything is :mellow:. Since this is the non-spoiler forum, I can't give the most blatant examples, but everything who's played the game should know what I mean. There are a few exceptions, but it never feels like part of a whole person. This is similar to the whole game: It feels like a lot of different bits and pieces thrown together without any consideration for the whole.


Shepard has no character because you gave him no character. After all, Shepard's character is shaped by your own decisions. If Shepard has no character in this game it's because you were not able to shape him during conversation with ME2's various characters.

Also, smudboy, you never addressed the points I made about your plot analysis. 

finnithe wrote...

Here's my response to this vid, just some things I found wrong with it that I posted in the other forum.

finnithe wrote...

There's a few other flaws with the analysis. Unlike ME1, there is no cackling overlord who rambles on about his plans to destroy everything you know and love, which I'm thinking too many of you are taking issue with.

1. The beauty of the collectors is the threat they represent is exemplified by the end boss. As Protheans twisted beyond recognition, they represent the danger presented by the creation of a Human Reaper. It is my opinion that the Reapers plan in creating the Human reaper was not to open the gateway for the rest of them, but to begin the creation of many more Human Reapers, who would together serve as the new vanguard. EDIT: It could also be a proof of concept, as Harbinger means "a sign of things to come".

2. Shepard is a symbol. Tell me, do we know of anyone as important as Shepard in the humanity's short history in the galactic community? No, and the point of recruiting Shepard was being able to recruit all these specialists in the first place.

3. The Collectors obviously want Shepard. This creates a plot hole however, as the Collectors obviously want Shepard in Mass Effect: Redemption. However, they destroyed the Normandy despite this. It's very weird that they would risk completely killing Shepard while right after showing interest in capturing him to use in the creation of the Human Reapers (Harbinger even hints that this is his plan in his many quotes, even in the video where he says "We are your genetic destiny". He is quite literally stating that it is the humans' destiny to become the next generation of Reapers, as they are the only genetically compatible race in the galaxy at the time).'

4. The stuff about selecting team leaders and how your team doesn't really react any differently. Don't you think it'd be sort of revealing if immediately after choosing Grunt as your second Fire Team Leader, the game scolded you and slapped you on the wrist? I would even go as far to guess that the party members do not themselves know how dangerous the mission is (I don't any of them have faced a mission as tough as going into an unknown part of the galaxy filled with Reaper-spawn). Also, Jacob complaining at being assigned to help protect Garrus was all the way in the beginning of the game. He's probably grown a lot more since then. Shepard is a good role model after all.

I should add that a significant theme in ME2, as well as ME1, is self-determination. You have the chance to advance humanity significantly at the end, though you do so at the risk of making yourself vulnerable against the Reapers. Legion talks at length about this, as he says this was the one reason his group of Geth rejected Sovereign's offers to the Geth. I sometimes think I am playing a completely different game than you guys, but that's the best part of fiction isn't it? The part where you come up with your own theories about the themes and concepts presented? Not everything should be beaten into your skull like it was with Sovereign's speech on Virmire.


finnithe wrote...

About the 3rd part, isn't it implied that TIM used his Alliance connections to get those turrets on Horizon? And he got the ex-squaddie assigned to the planet so that Shepard would go to the planet out of self-interest? I'm also pretty sure that the SR-2 would not be able to take Collector Ship at that point, since it was heavily damaged w/o the upgrades in the final mission.

Also why in the hell would TIM tell someone else about the Derelict Reaper?!? Would he really want to give up the tech inside that thing? He had probably salvaged it by the time Shepard got there or his disregard at its destruction is a plot hole.


Also I agree that your team did not really feel like a team. It would have made ME2 a much better game if, after solving their personal quests you saw more and more squad members interact. Perhaps the final cutscene was trying to show that, but it was too little, too late. 

#3678
finnithe

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That was a really bad post to double post. 

Modifié par finnithe, 01 juin 2010 - 07:41 .


#3679
bjdbwea

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finnithe wrote...

Shepard has no character because you gave him no character. After all, Shepard's character is shaped by your own decisions. If Shepard has no character in this game it's because you were not able to shape him during conversation with ME2's various characters.


That's what I said. The game doesn't allow me to do so. It doesn't offer the dialogue choices. Just one blatant example: The ME 1 LI reunion. Hi there, LI. :mellow: So glad you weren't abducted. :mellow: What, you accuse me of working for Cerberus? :mellow: You think I'm evil now? :mellow: Oh well, just leave me on this planet. :mellow: It was only two years after all. :mellow:

Oh, there are different choices in dialogue alright, but they make no difference. Shepard acts like a robot that doesn't care. And this happens way too often, especially during the main story. It's bad and lazy writing.

#3680
Lumikki

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bjdbwea wrote...

Oh, there are different choices in dialogue alright, but they make no difference. Shepard acts like a robot that doesn't care. And this happens way too often, especially during the main story. It's bad and lazy writing.

Hehe, this is one thing what I haven't figure yet in ME series. Why to have so many dialog choises when all choises are exact same. Other hand when there is real choise, it's like choose between two and has no other possibilities.

I think when they have three main path, they should uphold those path in every dialogs when it's possible and needed. Like, I can be compasion and persuade other to my side  or be logical with reason and neutral as not taking sides or be ruthless and force other to do what I want. How ever sometimes all choises are totaly same or one of them is missing.

Modifié par Lumikki, 01 juin 2010 - 08:12 .


#3681
CroGamer002

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Except for story, do you guys have any problem with gameplay? You know most importing thing in video games?!





I don't count planet scanning.

#3682
finnithe

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bjdbwea wrote...

finnithe wrote...

Shepard has no character because you gave him no character. After all, Shepard's character is shaped by your own decisions. If Shepard has no character in this game it's because you were not able to shape him during conversation with ME2's various characters.


That's what I said. The game doesn't allow me to do so. It doesn't offer the dialogue choices. Just one blatant example: The ME 1 LI reunion. Hi there, LI. :mellow: So glad you weren't abducted. :mellow: What, you accuse me of working for Cerberus? :mellow: You think I'm evil now? :mellow: Oh well, just leave me on this planet. :mellow: It was only two years after all. :mellow:

Oh, there are different choices in dialogue alright, but they make no difference. Shepard acts like a robot that doesn't care. And this happens way too often, especially during the main story. It's bad and lazy writing.


I don't really understand. It gives you the option of telling her that your work is only a temporary thing required by the gravity of the situation, or that you believe that Cerberus does good things too. I'm not sure what else you would have said. Do you think that if you met someone you knew really well and he or she worked for some terrorist organization that they would be able to persuade you that what they were doing was right?

What about comforting Tali after she found out her father died? Or comforting the mother of the woman who was killed by Morinth? 

#3683
Iakus

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bjdbwea wrote...

That's what I said. The game doesn't allow me to do so. It doesn't offer the dialogue choices. Just one blatant example: The ME 1 LI reunion. Hi there, LI. :mellow: So glad you weren't abducted. :mellow: What, you accuse me of working for Cerberus? :mellow: You think I'm evil now? :mellow: Oh well, just leave me on this planet. :mellow: It was only two years after all. :mellow:

Oh, there are different choices in dialogue alright, but they make no difference. Shepard acts like a robot that doesn't care. And this happens way too often, especially during the main story. It's bad and lazy writing.


Yeah, Garrus shows more emotion if you bring him along than Shepard does.

#3684
finnithe

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iakus wrote...

bjdbwea wrote...

That's what I said. The game doesn't allow me to do so. It doesn't offer the dialogue choices. Just one blatant example: The ME 1 LI reunion. Hi there, LI. :mellow: So glad you weren't abducted. :mellow: What, you accuse me of working for Cerberus? :mellow: You think I'm evil now? :mellow: Oh well, just leave me on this planet. :mellow: It was only two years after all. :mellow:

Oh, there are different choices in dialogue alright, but they make no difference. Shepard acts like a robot that doesn't care. And this happens way too often, especially during the main story. It's bad and lazy writing.


Yeah, Garrus shows more emotion if you bring him along than Shepard does.


Do you mean the VA?

#3685
Iakus

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Mesina2 wrote...

Except for story, do you guys have any problem with gameplay? You know most importing thing in video games?!


I don't count planet scanning.


Me, not really.  Like I said, there's some details I would tweak, but nothing really major.  (I do miss the Mako though)

To me Story = Gameplay in importance.  A game without a story is boring.  A story without good gameplay is a waste

Bioware has traditionally been the best of the best at making games with great stories.  They dropped the ball this time, which I still find to be a real shock.

#3686
Lumikki

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iakus wrote...

(I do miss the Mako though)

*Sniff* me too. It gives variety..
I allready did give my report :-)

Modifié par Lumikki, 01 juin 2010 - 08:31 .


#3687
CroGamer002

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iakus wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Except for story, do you guys have any problem with gameplay? You know most importing thing in video games?!


I don't count planet scanning.


Me, not really.  Like I said, there's some details I would tweak, but nothing really major.  (I do miss the Mako though)

To me Story = Gameplay in importance.  A game without a story is boring.  A story without good gameplay is a waste

Bioware has traditionally been the best of the best at making games with great stories.  They dropped the ball this time, which I still find to be a real shock.


I have to disagree that they drop the ball on ME2.
They did with Bioshock 2.
But that's whole diffrent story.

#3688
bjdbwea

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finnithe wrote...

I don't really understand. It gives you the option of telling her that your work is only a temporary thing required by the gravity of the situation, or that you believe that Cerberus does good things too. I'm not sure what else you would have said. Do you think that if you met someone you knew really well and he or she worked for some terrorist organization that they would be able to persuade you that what they were doing was right?


What I expect is that Shepard cares! Is that so hard to understand? This is the person he loves, and he meets her again after two years. Would you not be happy? But then she acts strange and cold, almost hostile. Would you not be disappointed? Would you not be angry? Would you not expect they listen to you? Would you not try to convince them? But nothing, just :mellow:. Yeah, a realistic response would have required more dialogue. Of course. But that could have been expected.

And before you say I'm just disappointed about the ME 1 LI situation. I am. But situations like that happen throughout the game, especially during the main story.

finnithe wrote...

What about comforting Tali after she found out her father died? Or comforting the mother of the woman who was killed by Morinth?


As I said, there are exceptions. Sudenly Shepard cares. Cares more about random people he just met than about the person he loves, or himself. But it's all bits and pieces, he doesn't have a coherent personality, just like the game is different bits and pieces and not a coherent whole.

#3689
CroGamer002

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Lumikki wrote...

iakus wrote...

(I do miss the Mako though)

*Sniff* me too. It gives variety..
I allready did give my report :-)


I didn't.
I still play ME1( since only recently I got PC that can play ME1).
And every time I have to drive Mako...Ugh.<_<

#3690
Iakus

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Lumikki wrote...

iakus wrote...

(I do miss the Mako though)

*Sniff* me too. It gives variety..
I allready did give my report :-)


Yeah the outfits bug me too a bit.  Though I chalk that up to aesthetics more than gameplay.  I wish there was an armor mod to get them some real uniforms

#3691
CroGamer002

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bjdbwea wrote...

finnithe wrote...

I don't really understand. It gives you the option of telling her that your work is only a temporary thing required by the gravity of the situation, or that you believe that Cerberus does good things too. I'm not sure what else you would have said. Do you think that if you met someone you knew really well and he or she worked for some terrorist organization that they would be able to persuade you that what they were doing was right?


What I expect is that Shepard cares! Is that so hard to understand? This is the person he loves, and he meets her again after two years. Would you not be happy? But then she acts strange and cold, almost hostile. Would you not be disappointed? Would you not be angry? Would you not expect they listen to you? Would you not try to convince them? But nothing, just :mellow:. Yeah, a realistic response would have required more dialogue. Of course. But that could have been expected.

And before you say I'm just disappointed about the ME 1 LI situation. I am. But situations like that happen throughout the game, especially during the main story.

finnithe wrote...

What about comforting Tali after she found out her father died? Or comforting the mother of the woman who was killed by Morinth?


As I said, there are exceptions. Sudenly Shepard cares. Cares more about random people he just met than about the person he loves, or himself. But it's all bits and pieces, he doesn't have a coherent personality, just like the game is different bits and pieces and not a coherent whole.


I have solution.
Don't romance anyone in ME1 and problem solved.


Oh and when exactly Shepherd had emotions in ME1 then?

Modifié par Mesina2, 01 juin 2010 - 08:40 .


#3692
Brayton

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I have another solution...everyone is like that....circumstance dictates what a person will do. The idea of personality is only the basis, its what that personality does during different situations that defines it. And really...this is WHY I base my Shepard off myself...so it does have a personality instead of being just...serious face.

#3693
Darth Drago

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Alex_SM wrote...

P3G4SU5 wrote...

Plot holes/lack of explanations aside, what did people think about the switch to thermal clip weaponry? Apparently the switch to a clip system is thanks to an advancement in weaponry from studying Geth weaponry, but it means you have a limited number of shots and your rate of fire is interrupted with constant reloading. Originally a good heat sink could allow infinite firing. How is the thermal clip system an advancement in technology?

I can appreciate the need to include some kind of ammo system because the concept in ME1 meant that guns should have eventually run out of ammo. Couldn't this have been tacked onto the existing ME1 thermal system so that overheating is still the main factor in combat, but in additon to this the metal clip from which bullets are shaved off has to be replaced occasionally with a new one?


Actually the thermal clip system allows better fire rate, so it is an advance. 

From the ME1 Codex
“The ammo magazine is a simple block of metal. The gun's internal computer calculates the mass needed to reach the target based on distance, gravity, and atmospheric pressure, then shears off an appropriate sized slug from the block. A single block can supply thousands of rounds, making ammo a non-issue during any engagement.”

Thermal Clip Codex
“It was long thought that personal weapons had plateaued in performance, but the geth proved all theories wrong. Mathematically reviewing their combat logs, the geth found that in an age of kinetic barriers, the weapon with the most rounds down-range the fastest wins. Combatants were forced to deliberately shoot slower to manage waste heat or pause as their weapons vented.

To eliminate this inefficiency, the geth adopted detachable heat sinks known as thermal clips. While organic arms manufacturers were initially doubtful this would produce a net gain, a well-trained soldier can eject and swap thermal clips in under a second. Faced with superior enemy firepower, organic armies soon followed the geth's lead and today's battlefields are littered with these thermal clips.”

So lets see what would you choose..

-That I can choose a weapon that with a single ammo block can shoot thousands of rounds regardless of weapon type I choose.
-That this weapon will only overheat to an unusable point under normal usage if I shoot it like an untrained soldier or action movie style by holding the trigger down instead of controlled bursts.
-That when it does overheat that it will only take a few seconds (about 10) for it to be usable again and that any secondary back up weapon can still be used and swapped out as fast as changing a thermal clip.
-I can also if needed, carry at least 8 of these ammo blocks on me with ease to be used in any weapon that may need reloading.
-That with a simple mod to the weapon I can change ammo types for effective use against any enemy I may encounter. I can also use simple mods to change the performance of each of my weapons I may carry to suit my own needs.

Or:

-I choose a weapon that has very limited ammo capacity and that the new thermal clip system really has no effect on overheating. (that element has been removed from the game)
-That if I run out of ammo in a firefight that I’ll be forced to put myself at risk to rummage the area to find new clips.
-These “thermal clips” also have a 1 to 1 ratio when fired so in such they are just fancy named ammo. They are not interchangeable between all my weapons I may carry since they apparently automatically modify themselves to fill the ammo capacity of each weapon.
-I can not carry more thermal clips than what my weapons maximum capacity can hold and even if I could, that would require me to carry dozens of these “D” battery sized clips on me.
-That even though I, as a well trained soldier can swap out a clip in seconds it doesn’t change the fact that I now have to conserve ammo and make sure every shot counts defeating the whole idea of increased rate of fire.
-That as I use this new technology my enemies do not, they will not run out of ammo even in the longest of firefights.
-That I have to rely on squad mate “powers” to use different ammo mods to effectively fight against any enemies I may encounter.

#3694
Iakus

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Mesina2 wrote...

iakus wrote...

Me, not really.  Like I said, there's some details I would tweak, but nothing really major.  (I do miss the Mako though)

To me Story = Gameplay in importance.  A game without a story is boring.  A story without good gameplay is a waste

Bioware has traditionally been the best of the best at making games with great stories.  They dropped the ball this time, which I still find to be a real shock.


I have to disagree that they drop the ball on ME2.
They did with Bioshock 2.
But that's whole diffrent story.


Not familiar with Bioshock games.  But I do not believe they are Bioware.

#3695
IoCaster

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Mesina2 wrote...

Except for story, do you guys have any problem with gameplay? You know most importing thing in video games?!


I don't count planet scanning.


Not really. I'm interested in the series because of the story, but I definitely enjoy the gameplay. I've done 12+ complete runs and EA/BioWare or more specifically Christina Norman and her squad of gameplay design wizards are awesome. I enjoy the combat and most of the level design that much. I may not think it's a very good sequel, but as a stand alone action game it's a top tier effort. If they can match the quality of the gameplay with the writing in ME3 it'll be the best game ever. *crossed fingers*

#3696
bjdbwea

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Mesina2 wrote...

I have solution.
Don't romance anyone in ME1 and problem solved.


Then I take it you didn't romance anyone in ME 2 either? No? That's right, you fully expect your continuation of the Tali romance in ME 3, don't you. How would you like it if Shepard reacted to her that way? But I digress. It was actually not my intention to bring the romance issue into this discussion, that's a whole new topic. The LI reunion was only one example.

Mesina2 wrote...

Oh and when exactly Shepherd had emotions in ME1 then?


Oh, just very often. Might want to play the game, maybe you'll notice.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 01 juin 2010 - 08:48 .


#3697
Iakus

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Mesina2 wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

iakus wrote...

(I do miss the Mako though)

*Sniff* me too. It gives variety..
I allready did give my report :-)


I didn't.
I still play ME1( since only recently I got PC that can play ME1).
And every time I have to drive Mako...Ugh.<_<



To me Mako:  good.  Impassable mountain peaks: not so good.  But I'm willing to deal with one for the other. Posted Image

#3698
chzr

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finnithe wrote...

What about comforting Tali after she found out her father died? Or comforting the mother of the woman who was killed by Morinth? 


let's say we both made completely different shepards in me1, one of our shepard is complete ass and the other one is like an angel (ie: one of us have full prgnshep and the other one rngdshep, but we are talking about personality of each shep).
Now, we made both a shepard with different personality. What happens in me2? The whole "personality" of both sheps is completely erased, there is NO difference in the character of both. The game simply forces us, regardless of what shepard we made, to join Cerberus and be TIMS "slave" whole game. It's not about that me/you/someone else didn't made shep with personality, it's about that the game completely ignores anything what you was and did and railroads your shepard through the "story".

#3699
CroGamer002

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Darth Drago wrote...

Alex_SM wrote...

P3G4SU5 wrote...

Plot holes/lack of explanations aside, what did people think about the switch to thermal clip weaponry? Apparently the switch to a clip system is thanks to an advancement in weaponry from studying Geth weaponry, but it means you have a limited number of shots and your rate of fire is interrupted with constant reloading. Originally a good heat sink could allow infinite firing. How is the thermal clip system an advancement in technology?

I can appreciate the need to include some kind of ammo system because the concept in ME1 meant that guns should have eventually run out of ammo. Couldn't this have been tacked onto the existing ME1 thermal system so that overheating is still the main factor in combat, but in additon to this the metal clip from which bullets are shaved off has to be replaced occasionally with a new one?


Actually the thermal clip system allows better fire rate, so it is an advance. 

From the ME1 Codex
“The ammo magazine is a simple block of metal. The gun's internal computer calculates the mass needed to reach the target based on distance, gravity, and atmospheric pressure, then shears off an appropriate sized slug from the block. A single block can supply thousands of rounds, making ammo a non-issue during any engagement.”

Thermal Clip Codex
“It was long thought that personal weapons had plateaued in performance, but the geth proved all theories wrong. Mathematically reviewing their combat logs, the geth found that in an age of kinetic barriers, the weapon with the most rounds down-range the fastest wins. Combatants were forced to deliberately shoot slower to manage waste heat or pause as their weapons vented.

To eliminate this inefficiency, the geth adopted detachable heat sinks known as thermal clips. While organic arms manufacturers were initially doubtful this would produce a net gain, a well-trained soldier can eject and swap thermal clips in under a second. Faced with superior enemy firepower, organic armies soon followed the geth's lead and today's battlefields are littered with these thermal clips.”

So lets see what would you choose..

-That I can choose a weapon that with a single ammo block can shoot thousands of rounds regardless of weapon type I choose.
-That this weapon will only overheat to an unusable point under normal usage if I shoot it like an untrained soldier or action movie style by holding the trigger down instead of controlled bursts.
-That when it does overheat that it will only take a few seconds (about 10) for it to be usable again and that any secondary back up weapon can still be used and swapped out as fast as changing a thermal clip.
-I can also if needed, carry at least 8 of these ammo blocks on me with ease to be used in any weapon that may need reloading.
-That with a simple mod to the weapon I can change ammo types for effective use against any enemy I may encounter. I can also use simple mods to change the performance of each of my weapons I may carry to suit my own needs.

Or:

-I choose a weapon that has very limited ammo capacity and that the new thermal clip system really has no effect on overheating. (that element has been removed from the game)
-That if I run out of ammo in a firefight that I’ll be forced to put myself at risk to rummage the area to find new clips.
-These “thermal clips” also have a 1 to 1 ratio when fired so in such they are just fancy named ammo. They are not interchangeable between all my weapons I may carry since they apparently automatically modify themselves to fill the ammo capacity of each weapon.
-I can not carry more thermal clips than what my weapons maximum capacity can hold and even if I could, that would require me to carry dozens of these “D” battery sized clips on me.
-That even though I, as a well trained soldier can swap out a clip in seconds it doesn’t change the fact that I now have to conserve ammo and make sure every shot counts defeating the whole idea of increased rate of fire.
-That as I use this new technology my enemies do not, they will not run out of ammo even in the longest of firefights.
-That I have to rely on squad mate “powers” to use different ammo mods to effectively fight against any enemies I may encounter.


Or just say screw Codex and say it's just diffrent game mechanic.

#3700
CroGamer002

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bjdbwea wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Oh and when exactly Shepherd had emotions in ME1 then?


Oh, just very often. Might want to play the game, maybe you'll notice.


I already passed ME1 5 times and by YOUR logic Shepherd doesn't have emotions in neither games.

Modifié par Mesina2, 01 juin 2010 - 08:54 .