10273 réponses à ce sujet

[Arwyl]

tonnactus wrote...

SkullandBonesmember wrote...


In ME1 the combat/character interaction ratio was even and sometimes it actually favored character interaction.

I also want to add that the player gained a lot of levels only with talking. Like6-8 levels for the citadel quests alone.
Now you get 50 xp for it.(except two loyality missions)

True, very true. Good point.

[Jebel Krong]

Arwyl wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

Arwyl wrote...

Yeah, reminiscing and perhaps, you know, role-playing.

role-playing what? if there's no reason to be on the presidium, why would you go there? especially when that disc-space can be used for other, more exciting locations where you can actually, y'know "role-play".

My Shepard had more than enough reasons to want to take a stroll in the presidium. Role-playing as I understand it goes beyond the functional: it is an emotional involvement.

that's lovely: should i write a note to bioware to tailor the game exclusively for you in the future? because other people might like another location to be included on the disc rather than somewhere we've already exhausted before....
in an ideal world, sure, why wouldn't you go back to places you've been before - not just the citadel, but all the planets, but this isn't real-life and DVD-9 disc-space is very restrictive.

[Ecael]

Arwyl wrote...

tonnactus wrote...

SkullandBonesmember wrote...


In ME1 the combat/character interaction ratio was even and sometimes it actually favored character interaction.

I also want to add that the player gained a lot of levels only with talking. Like6-8 levels for the citadel quests alone.
Now you get 50 xp for it.(except two loyality missions)

True, very true. Good point.

That's because the experience gained is based on mission rather than objectives completed.

Name 5 missions in Mass Effect 1 and/or 2 (aside from mineral collecting and planet scanning) where there is no combat whatsoever.

Modifié par Ecael, 03 juin 2010 - 02:05 .

[Jebel Krong]

bjdbwea wrote...

Ecael wrote...

That's very opinionated, especially since the missions in ME1 start at hub worlds rather than use them as intermediates.

It's not opinionated, it's the truth. You can't deny that in the ME 1 main story missions you have lots of interaction between the shooting. And you have lots of different actors during the cutscenes before and after the missions. You do not have that in ME 2. You can argue all day how you like that better, but facts are facts.

Ecael wrote...

Mass Effect 2 also has approximately 13,000 more lines than Mass Effect 1, and clearly many more actors and interactions before, during and after each mission.

Apart from the number, which may or may not be true: Nonsense. Not even if you count the companions, who don't have much to say about the missions, if at all.

you have lots of interactions in me2, too - i really don't get where you are coming from here? the only thing you don't have is crewmates randomly saying a few lines round certain locations, and thats a memory constraint for that many possible party-members if ever there was one - you can talk to them at specific points though, so it's not like that was ignored, and the loyalty missions alone have a lot more grade A content/conversations to get to know the squad than me1 ever had, plus the normandy interactions.

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 03 juin 2010 - 02:11 .

[Ecael]

Orchomene wrote...

Of course it's subjective. I mean, this topic is about disappointment, that is a feeling and not a rational and mechanical study of behaviours of ME2 versus ME1. I don't like the "hub world" concept of ME2 since it's unconnected to the main missions. In Noveria and Feros, there is a specific reason linked to the main plot to go to those worlds. Whereas is ME2 you go to the Citadel, Omega and Ilium for what reason ? Recruitment auditions after having received a CV. Sorry, but I've done that during my project leader job for several years and don't need a game where the main topic is recruitment.
In the main missions of ME2, you go to places with more or less only fights : Freedom's progress, Horizon, Collector ship, IFF and the final one (but with some originality in this one).

While there are specific reasons why you need to go there (as there is with every mission), most of the characters in Feros and Noveria couldn't care less about what Saren and Matriarch Benezia are doing. Thus, they are also unconnected to the "real threat" in the galaxy.

[SkullandBonesmember]

Ecael wrote...

Name 5 missions in Mass Effect 1 and/or 2 (aside from mineral collecting and planet scanning) where there is no combat whatsoever.

You just don't get it. NOBODY IS ASKING FOR NO COMBAT. Many were just sickened by the lack of ratio character interaction between ME1 and ME2 and combat ratio between ME1 and ME2.

[snfonseka]

ME2 is not a disappointment for me. But there are many things that need to improve / change. Specially there should be more story driven approach for the ME2 plots (I love the action, no doubt in that !!! but this is a RPG, so the game should be more story driven rather than action driven).

[Jebel Krong]

Orchomene wrote...

Of course it's subjective. I mean, this topic is about disappointment, that is a feeling and not a rational and mechanical study of behaviours of ME2 versus ME1. I don't like the "hub world" concept of ME2 since it's unconnected to the main missions. In Noveria and Feros, there is a specific reason linked to the main plot to go to those worlds. Whereas is ME2 you go to the Citadel, Omega and Ilium for what reason ? Recruitment auditions after having received a CV. Sorry, but I've done that during my project leader job for several years and don't need a game where the main topic is recruitment.
In the main missions of ME2, you go to places with more or less only fights : Freedom's progress, Horizon, Collector ship, IFF and the final one (but with some originality in this one).

wow you're lucky - i sure wish i had a job where i could fly in a spaceship and recruit exotic aliens on distant worlds in a science-fiction universe....<_<

[Jebel Krong]

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

Ecael wrote...

Name 5 missions in Mass Effect 1 and/or 2 (aside from mineral collecting and planet scanning) where there is no combat whatsoever.

You just don't get it. NOBODY IS ASKING FOR NO COMBAT. Many were just sickened by the lack of ratio character interaction between ME1 and ME2 and combat ratio between ME1 and ME2.

both went up?

[Ecael]

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

Ecael wrote...

Name 5 missions in Mass Effect 1 and/or 2 (aside from mineral collecting and planet scanning) where there is no combat whatsoever.

You just don't get it. NOBODY IS ASKING FOR NO COMBAT. Many were just sickened by the lack of ratio character interaction between ME1 and ME2 and combat ratio between ME1 and ME2.

So what is Shepard doing in Mass Effect 2 when there isn't any combat?

[Lumikki]

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

Ecael wrote...

Name 5 missions in Mass Effect 1 and/or 2 (aside from mineral collecting and planet scanning) where there is no combat whatsoever.

You just don't get it. NOBODY IS ASKING FOR NO COMBAT. Many were just sickened by the lack of ratio character interaction between ME1 and ME2 and combat ratio between ME1 and ME2.

Yeah, I don't get this one. You are saying like ME1 has more interaction with npcs than ME2? WTF are you talking?

I assume that interaction with NPC's you mean talking?

[Orchomene]

Ecael wrote...
While there are specific reasons why you need to go there (as there is with every mission), most of the characters in Feros and Noveria couldn't care less about what Saren and Matriarch Benezia are doing. Thus, they are also unconnected to the "real threat" in the galaxy.

But it's linked to the missions : you can talk to the people in Noveria and ask if they saw Benezia.  In Feros, you find a colony where people react strangely and it's connected to the story somewhere. There is thus some continuity element, you feel that you are advancing the plot.
In ME2, going to the Citadel, Omega or Ilium, you don't feel it at all connected to the collectors.

[Ecael]

Orchomene wrote...

Ecael wrote...
While there are specific reasons why you need to go there (as there is with every mission), most of the characters in Feros and Noveria couldn't care less about what Saren and Matriarch Benezia are doing. Thus, they are also unconnected to the "real threat" in the galaxy.

But it's linked to the missions : you can talk to the people in Noveria and ask if they saw Benezia.  In Feros, you find a colony where people react strangely and it's connected to the story somewhere. There is thus some continuity element, you feel that you are advancing the plot.
In ME2, going to the Citadel, Omega or Ilium, you don't feel it at all connected to the collectors.

You can ask any of the 13 possible squadmates during their recruitment mission or during their time on the Normandy about their opinion on the Collectors. Since they help you chase after and defeat the main villain, they are only ones that matter when talking about Collectors.

The other NPCs are there to expand upon background information about the galaxy, Terminus Systems, or relevant homeworlds.

[bjdbwea]

Ecael wrote...

Name 5 missions in Mass Effect 1 and/or 2 (aside from mineral collecting and planet scanning) where there is no combat whatsoever.

What's your definition of "mission"? Because it's easy for ME 1: The consort, Samesh, the prophet, evidence for the reporter, Rita, Schells, espionage on Noveria, etc, etc, etc. Even more if we count the missions where you can fight, but can also solve the mission peacefully. This is exactly the kind of missions / quests and the kind of choices and interaction that made ME 1 feel alive. That make any proper RPG feel alive. ME 2 has way too little of that. A few occasions of NPCs always sitting at the same place and repeating their "funny" conversations like a broken record can't make up for that.

There are of course also missions in ME 2 that don't involve fighting. Two loyalty missions, and those are good, granted. Apart from that though: Pick up a battery and feed it to a mech? Stroll over a shipwreck? Really? Again, it's not quantity, but quality. ME 1 wins hands down.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 03 juin 2010 - 02:23 .

[Arwyl]

Jebel Krong wrote...

pacing helps with a strong narrative - something you also claim me2 lacks. so which is it that you want? btw you can still play most of me2 like that - you can wander the hub-worlds as much as you like...

I tried that... They felt like a hamster cage . Omega was the only one that felt like a real place.

[Lumikki]

Orchomene wrote...

Ecael wrote...
While there are specific reasons why you need to go there (as there is with every mission), most of the characters in Feros and Noveria couldn't care less about what Saren and Matriarch Benezia are doing. Thus, they are also unconnected to the "real threat" in the galaxy.

But it's linked to the missions : you can talk to the people in Noveria and ask if they saw Benezia.  In Feros, you find a colony where people react strangely and it's connected to the story somewhere. There is thus some continuity element, you feel that you are advancing the plot.
In ME2, going to the Citadel, Omega or Ilium, you don't feel it at all connected to the collectors.

That's because the story is different kind. You allways expect story to follow same kind of design?

In ME1 hole story was about finding Saren and stop him, by finding clues about Saren.
In ME2 hole story was finding way to shop collecter, get stronger enough to do it.

The difference here is that in ME1 you did not know where you main target was, you need to find him. In ME2 you did know it from start where collectors are, you just could not get there and survey. That's the base difference, that why things happens differently. That's why in ME2 squad members played bigger role and making normandy better. In ME1 you where ready for Saren from start, but you just need to find him. You did not need to get stronger, because enemy. You did not need more squad members, because story. It was Saren agaist Shepard (one agaist one), while ME2 was collectors agaist Shepards crew (many agaist many).

Modifié par Lumikki, 03 juin 2010 - 02:50 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

Well the Normandy SR-2 is kind of like its own little hub world now, complete with Quests and loading screens! Lol

[Ecael]

bjdbwea wrote...

Ecael wrote...

Name 5 missions in Mass Effect 1 and/or 2 (aside from mineral collecting and planet scanning) where there is no combat whatsoever.

What's your definition of "mission"? Because it's easy for ME 1: The consort, Samesh, the prophet, evidence for the reporter, Rita, Schells, espionage on Noveria, etc, etc, etc. Even more if we count the missions where you can fight, but can also solve the mission peacefully. This is exactly the kind of missions / quests and the kind of choices and interaction that made ME 1 feel alive. That make any proper RPG feel alive. ME 2 has way too little of that. A few occasions of NPCs always sitting at the same place and repeating their "funny" conversations like a broken record can't make up for that.

There are of course also missions in ME 2 that don't involve fighting. Two loyalty missions, and those are good, granted. Apart from that though: Pick up a battery and feed it to a mech? Stroll over a shipwreck? Really? Again, it's not quantity, but quality. ME 1 wins hands down.

Those are hub world side missions. You can name all of them as non-combat missions located in hub worlds if you like.

Modifié par Ecael, 03 juin 2010 - 02:25 .

[Orchomene]

Ecael wrote...

You can ask any of the 13 possible squadmates during their recruitment mission or during their time on the Normandy about their opinion on the Collectors.

You can ? I only remeber of Mordin having something to say about Collectors different from "yeah, whatever we fight, I'm in because of you/I'm paid".

[Jebel Krong]

Orchomene wrote...

Ecael wrote...
While there are specific reasons why you need to go there (as there is with every mission), most of the characters in Feros and Noveria couldn't care less about what Saren and Matriarch Benezia are doing. Thus, they are also unconnected to the "real threat" in the galaxy.

But it's linked to the missions : you can talk to the people in Noveria and ask if they saw Benezia.  In Feros, you find a colony where people react strangely and it's connected to the story somewhere. There is thus some continuity element, you feel that you are advancing the plot.
In ME2, going to the Citadel, Omega or Ilium, you don't feel it at all connected to the collectors.

again: huh? so on noveria you could ask about benezia, but Illium you couldn't ask about samara/thane? because i know i spoke to several people, including liara. that ties directly into the main plot of the game and is a lot more "in-depth" than me1. hell i even ran into an emissary from the rachni and we got to talk about the reapers, too. Omega was all about the reapers: they were behind the plague, remember? and the vorcha takeover of blue-sun's territory.... did you even play mass effect 2 and pay any attention?

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 03 juin 2010 - 02:30 .

[Ecael]

Orchomene wrote...

Ecael wrote...

You can ask any of the 13 possible squadmates during their recruitment mission or during their time on the Normandy about their opinion on the Collectors.

You can ? I only remeber of Mordin having something to say about Collectors different from "yeah, whatever we fight, I'm in because of you/I'm paid".

• Samara thinks the Collectors are a worthy foe
• Kasumi mentions Collectors immediately during her advertisement and how she'll keep out of sight after discovering that graybox
• Zaeed knows he's taking a suicide mission for the pay and compares how dangerous it is to his past missions
• Thane insists that no one has ever survived the Omega-4 relay and wants to prevent the deaths of more innocents
• Morinth tells Shepard she'll keep herself under control for the Collector mission
• Grunt just loves battle outright, especially with "enemies that threaten galaxies"
• Miranda obviously knows and talks a lot about the Collectors
• Jacob obviously knows and talks a lot about the Collectors
• Mordin obviously knows and talks a lot about the Collectors
• Legion tells you how the Collector Base is important to fighting the Old Machines
• Garrus knows that "the Collectors killed you once, and all it did was pissed you off", and remains somewhat pessimistic
• Tali is the most suspicious about Cerberus, but she is very opinionated about the Collectors (I've listened to a lot of the squadmate dialogue)
• Jack doesn't have much to say unless it's about Cerberus, but if you take her along all the missions, she does admit that what Cerberus is doing is important

Even Joker and most of the Normandy crew has something to say about "The Mission".

Modifié par Ecael, 03 juin 2010 - 02:34 .

[bjdbwea]

Ecael wrote...

Those are hub world side missions. You can name all of them as non-combat missions located in hub worlds if you like.

Still answered your question. But to be fair, come to think of it, there are indeed a few such missions on the hub worlds in ME 2 too. Not enough though, and for the most part they are written and designed worse than in ME 1, and with much less different choices for the player.

The most ridiculous one is perhaps the one with the slave trader on Illium who stands there all day, just waiting for you to talk to the possible buyer... who stands virtually right next to her, of course also with nothing else to do. A prime example of dumbing down and "streamlining" the game. Can't have the player "waste" their time walking a few steps, right? Everything has to be immediate.

[tonnactus]

Ecael wrote...


The Mass Effect trilogy was designed with that purpose. The gun combat (and ground vehicle combat) illustrates this.

Crap.What weapons soldiers should use in a sci fi rpg? Light swords? But even kotor have pistols,so they target the shooter crowd too?
When we talk about progression. Now shepardt could use a sniper rifle but is too dumb to use some type of ammo without points in it?
This made more sense i guess...
Does this progression made sense? Its interesting enough that no one complaint that shepardt has to learn biotic and tech attacks too.
Lost odyssee is also based on the unreal engine.Find better arguments.

Modifié par tonnactus, 03 juin 2010 - 02:45 .

[Orchomene]

Jebel Krong wrote...
again: huh? so on noveria you could ask about benezia, but Illium you couldn't ask about samara/thane? Omega was all about the reapers: they were behind the plague, remember?

Asking about Samara and Thane is not asking about the main mission which is not recruiting people but stoping the collectors. About the plague, it was so well explained that it came from the reapers that I forgot about it.
Of course you can say I'm biased since I don't like ME2 as a game nor as a story. I've lost interest at the story about half way in the game because I didn't find any interest in it. Thus, nothing was really memorable to me in the game and since I also don't think there is any replayability in the game but just trying another class to see how it plays ( and I don't like how the game is played, thus I don't really want to try again), there is no way I remember a lot of tthe overall story. ME1 was ok, ME2 doesn't give me the desire to see how the story will end.

[Ecael]

bjdbwea wrote...

Ecael wrote...

Those are hub world side missions. You can name all of them as non-combat missions located in hub worlds if you like.

Still answered your question. But to be fair, come to think of it, there are indeed a few such missions on the hub worlds in ME 2 too. Not enough though, and for the most part they are written and designed worse than in ME 1, and with much less different choices for the player.

The most ridiculous one is perhaps the one with the slave trader on Illium who stands there all day, just waiting for you to talk to the possible buyer... who stands virtually right next to her, of course also with nothing else to do. A prime example of dumbing down and "streamlining" the game. Can't have the player "waste" their time walking a few steps, right? Everything has to be immediate.

It makes it easier to interact with the characters in the bar, don't you think?

:happy:

I don't see how making it easier for the player to enjoy conversation is dumbing down the game.