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Disappointment With Mass Effect 2? An Open Discussion.


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#5176
AlanC9

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Terror_K wrote...
Some of them were, some of them weren't. Some of them would have been if they hadn't been taken too far. Others are pretty bad ideas in the first place. ME1 tended to have good ideas with bad execution, while ME2 tended to just have bad ideas, or at least bad ideas regarding an RPG; in a pure shooter they may work, but in an RPG, even a hybrid one, not so much.


That's obviously dependent on what you think an RPG is -- and more importantly, what it should be

I actually personally have more problems with the apparent mindset of the devs and the direction they seemed to want to take ME2 overall than I do with the individual changes themselves.


So you're more concerned about what you think the developers think than you are about the game they actually made, the game you're actually playing? Seriously?

#5177
Lumikki

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What was the real difference between ME1 and ME2.



In the end I did come conclusion that the big difference is MAKO. Because it's only thing what really used alot of players time and what ME2 is totally missing. Think about it, maybe 5-15% of gameplay was driving that mako and it's not heavy combat, so more like non-combat side. It created alot of variety to break the dialog <-> combat relation. In ME2 it's only dialogs or combat, those are the major gameplay time consumers. In ME1 it was also Mako. Rpg side did not really affect out side the combat side alot. Sure there is maybe few non-combat missions more in ME1, but the difference isn't that big, compared what Mako did cause.

#5178
spacehamsterZH

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StodgyFrost98 wrote...

Its hard for the ME3 team to take which notes specifically. Some notes are false claims while other are legitimate claims. 


Yeah, same as with his plot analysis. Some really good points unfortunately lost in a sea of irrelevant nitpicks, completely unjustified remarks ("no you di'n, haw haw") and flat-out false claims.

I'm getting kind of a hankering to type up my list of grievances with ME2, just to see if it'll make certain people's heads explode.

#5179
AlanC9

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Which I guess brings me to this...

Terror_K wrote...
.... And I think they did it intentionally in order to reach a new audience more than they did to make a better, richer game. I don't care what the reviews said or how many people preferred the changes made, the game is shallower and simpler.


If what the ME1 audience thought of the changes isn't relevant, why is what the developers thought they were doing relevant? If you want to talk about the game itself, then do that.

There are hundreds of RPG's out there, both cRPG and Pen+Paper based, all with different systems that usually work well. Just do some research and work it out.


My favorite PnP RPG systems don't involve loot and inventory. Maybe they did  "do some research and work it out."

Modifié par AlanC9, 08 juin 2010 - 04:39 .


#5180
AlanC9

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Mesina2 wrote...
RPG elements: fail. I do agree that lowering character level from 60 to 30 is lame and removing great powers like stasis and damping is really stupid.


More levels = better RPG elements???

#5181
CroGamer002

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AlanC9 wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...
RPG elements: fail. I do agree that lowering character level from 60 to 30 is lame and removing great powers like stasis and damping is really stupid.


More levels = better RPG elements???



I said lowering is lame. I didn't say it's better with more levels.
I ment by it they were lazy with it.

#5182
AlanC9

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That makes even less sense.

#5183
Onyx Jaguar

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Well its really ascetic due to the mission layout. They could easily rewrite the skills and the level system to how it is presented in ME 1 and it would take you to the same place as ME 2 (instead going up by smaller increments). WIthout the lost skills of course. Granted I liked Damping but Stasis was extremely... useless?

#5184
CroGamer002

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AlanC9 wrote...

That makes even less sense.


How?
Please explain.

#5185
CroGamer002

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Onyx Jaguar wrote...
Granted I liked Damping but Stasis was extremely... useless?


Stasis, stop charging enemies.
Damping, disable biotic powers from enemies.
Very usefull.

Modifié par Mesina2, 08 juin 2010 - 04:46 .


#5186
Onyx Jaguar

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60 is a number that ME has that requires multiple playthroughs, The number in ME 2 is more related to how many missions you do. And it takes you to thirty. With more skills perhaps you could have more levels but it really doesn't make a huge difference. They could chop it up into 60 with the same skillset in ME 2 just at smaller increments.

#5187
Onyx Jaguar

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Mesina2 wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...
Granted I liked Damping but Stasis was extremely... useless?


Stasis, stop charging enemies.
Damping, disable biotic powers from enemies.
Very usefull.


Stasis does indeed do that, but you have a myriad of skills that are better suited.  Grenades, ammo types, Lift, Throw, SIngularity. etc.

Damping is very nice

Immunity I could go either way on.  However with ME 2's system Immunity doesn't make much sense, also it is frustrating when an enemy uses it.

Modifié par Onyx Jaguar, 08 juin 2010 - 04:49 .


#5188
CroGamer002

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Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...
Granted I liked Damping but Stasis was extremely... useless?


Stasis, stop charging enemies.
Damping, disable biotic powers from enemies.
Very usefull.


Stasis does indeed do that, but you have a myriad of skills that are better suited.  Grenades, ammo types, Lift, Throw, SIngularity. etc.

Damping is very nice

Immunity I could go either way on.  However with ME 2's system Immunity doesn't make much sense, also it is frustrating when an enemy uses it.


I didn't mention Immunity. We do agree on that one.

#5189
AlanC9

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Mesina2 wrote...


How?
Please explain.


Sure. I was the one being lazy there.

You said " lowering is lame. I didn't say it's better with more levels.
I ment by it they were lazy with it."

But 30 or 60 is just a number. It's not like they took ME1 and chopped half the levels off -- they completely rebuilt the system. Rebuilding around 30 points or 60 points isn't any different.

#5190
CroGamer002

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AlanC9 wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...


How?
Please explain.


Sure. I was the one being lazy there.

You said " lowering is lame. I didn't say it's better with more levels.
I ment by it they were lazy with it."

But 30 or 60 is just a number. It's not like they took ME1 and chopped half the levels off -- they completely rebuilt the system. Rebuilding around 30 points or 60 points isn't any different.


True, but they did cut out powers and weapon skills from ME1.

#5191
Siegdrifa

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Hello, i wanted to give my point of view... since it's a forum :D
But in advance, i'm sorry for my poor english.

ME2 is more focused on game play :
ME1 has some unclear fight, sometimes hidding behind somerthing, sometimes running and shoot at every moving things.
ME2 is clear; find a good spot, hid then shoot, take a few shot and you could die. And i love this way of playing so i'm not desapointed for this aspect.

The  skills in ME2 is a part of the gun fight but more appropriate then ME1 :
In ME1 it was more a matter a quantity, not quality. So having your squad unleashing lot of crowd control could take away all the difficulty / strategy of every encounter that's why i think their use is more appropriate in ME2 because they need to be used smartly.
The bad side is, they cutted too much, from 12/13 skils with 12 ranks, now we have 5/6 with 4 ranks.

The inventory in ME2 took a hard it too :
But ME1 inventory is far from being perfect, we have many choice yes, but there was so many mod and item that i get bored when i have to equip my squad with the most appropriate weapon/mods and armor/mods.
In ME2 i like for the armor the idea to purchase new parts with their own bonus to build your own armor adapted for you carreer, but there is not enough part IMO.
I Like the ME2 mods +10% that gives you other bonus to the weapon but i'm no sure it is better than controling the firepower, firerate, etc, either way it's fine by me.
I don't like the amunition being a skill in ME2. Sure it is a pain to change so often in ME1 but they should use a quick menu allowing the player to switch the amunition type quicly in the middle of the fight.

The ME2 level designe is totaly build for the gameplay and you can play on the map in different ways.
I find it totaly awsome. The only problem is, because ME2 is so focused on gameplay, all the map appear to have an "unnatural construction" and just by the looks, you know you will have a fight here.
ME1 level design seemed more natural toward his surounding environement.

No mako in ME2.
To be honest, i don't mind, because exploring with the mako is fun at the beggining but it's boring quikly, especialy on none flat ground.
Plus, the control and the "emptyness" of the planets would have made a bad look to ME2.
I mean, in ME1 after you play a misson like feros then spend time on 10 planets with the mako... looking for 1 bunker (always the same!) to kill a fews guys, spending 20 minutes to find ressources, it BORING !
A SF RPG need a way to explor planet and other worlds, but the mako way in ME1 was not well made, we could discover only empty planets anyway.

The plot !
For this part, i say ME1 is better all the way !
In ME1, there is a main plot (pursue Saren), then we discover a bigger threat with a unknowne purpuse
(giving the main plot a more dramatic aspect). And for the protheans,
from what we know about them at the beggning of the story, it changes
totaly at the end of the game (evolution) and the change is linked to
the discovery of the bigger threat. Plus, every time we go on a maine
mission we discover a little more of what Saren plans to do, his purpuse (and everything he try to do is a smart move to achieve his goal).
ME2 plot is just a compil of mini story, and for the main plot... "hi! i m the elusive man and you will build your team of badass guys to kick the collectors" nothing more. We spend most of our time in ME2 playing sub-scenary that have no link to the main plot of mass effect.
Anyway, Bioware have lot of experience and know how to make any sub-story intresing.
But still, the main plot is THE big fail of ME2, no surprise, nothing new (or near), no evolution, no traitor, no conspiracy, no depth, no creativity (i'm still talking of the main plot of ME2).

The game lenght.
For this part i say ME2 all the way.
I need at least 35 hours everytime i want to finish ME2 (insanity) and i don't get bored at all.
For ME1 i need a little more then 30 hours and i spend more than 60% in the mako exploring the empty planets.
ME1 is definitly too short if i keep only the real game, between 12 and 15 hours. The mako is a good way to play more but i'm not this kind of player who enjoy wasting time in repeatitiv task that doesn't serve a real intrest for the game. For me there is a big difference between "spending your time playing" and "wasting your time playing".
No offence for the mako fan, if they enjoy playing with the mako exploring planets they are lucky, because they enjoy everything ME1 can offer, me i enjoy only the main missions.


Well that's all, congratulation if you read all this :P

If i have to make a conclusion, i would say that ME2 have a really polished gameplay in compar of ME1, Some sacrifice was a need to achieve that goal, but at some point, they sacrified too much (amunition, only 4rank etc).
The RPG style is still here, the RTC are well made and Bioware know how to make any story intresting, but the non explorable planet plus a bad main plot cut the "magic touch" of ME1.
Lets hope that ME3 will keep the gameplay of ME2 but will introduce a new way to explore planets more appropriate than the mako and for a better main plot !

But i fear that the main plot of ME3 will be "hey! we need to kick the reapers, so lets go gather alies among all species and fight the reapers !"
You will need to solve their problem before they agree to follow you to war, exemple: turian don't have anymore toilet paper in their battle ship, you will have to find new toilet paper dealer with the volus to provide the turian fleet "thanks Shepard, you saved our ASS! we can go to war now !

I play on pc.
And i got ME2 before ME1 if it can help understand my point of view.

#5192
Onyx Jaguar

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Well the weapon skills often were tied with accuracy. and in ME 2 you can consider your characters accuracy maxed.

#5193
Onyx Jaguar

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@Siegdrifa I think Bioware have written themselves into a hole in regards to the plot in order to keep this going as a trilogy. ME 1 did a good job with this but it pretty much exhausted much of its story potential in regards to the Reapers. ME 2 on the other hand tried to do a straight path approach but it really didn't have any impactful moments until the final mission. Sure there was a bit of menace but no real drive. I do not see how if they tie ME 3 again with the Reapers as they did with ME 2 how they will reconcile this as in regards to ME 1 the Reapers were a plot twist and not the main focus at first.

#5194
Orchomene

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SithLordExarKun wrote...


Ok Einstein, where did i say Ecaels arguments were the universal law of facts? Can you do me a favour? Follow these instructions.

1) Find a quote where i said Ecaels arguments was facts
2)Post it here where everybody can see
3)Stop being an idiot.

Let me translate this into idiot speech so you can understand it
1) Err plz find wher i say ecalz arGumentZ r farcts
2) put heRe wer ppl can c it
3)Omg u shUd st0p b#ing stupid BAW BAW BAW!!!!

Orchomene wrote...
Oh, btw, you write proofs, of course. What do you think do mathematicians ? Do you think they write reviews ? No, they write proof (after finding such proof, of course, else there is no point).

And just how exactly do mathematicians "write proof"? Is there even a term? Let me correct you, its called "writing down evidence".


If you want, I can show you some extracts of what you said stating that Ecael's arguments are proofs.

SithLordExarKun wrote...

Kalf, you're a disgrace
seriously, people actually prove you wrong and you absolutely refuse to
accept it and still try to argue like you're the end be all. [...]

Really,
ecael made VERY logical points, but you, simply being the arrogant
individual you are w, simply chooses to ignore it because you cannot
accept being wrong and is simple way to arrogant to do so.

You
ask for people to make logical arguments and provide evidence, yet when
people do so, you refuse it and accuse them of trolling instead and on
the other hand, you yourself has yet to even offer a single shred of
proof other than your own deluded opinions which always get proven
wrong.


SithLordExarKun wrote...

Dismissed? As in disproven? A few
individuals who voiced out why they disagree with ecael is far from
actually destroying and disproving ecaels claims.


About mathematics, I'll pass on your apparent ignorance. Yes, mathematicians write proofs. I'm well placed to know it, I am a mathematician.
But overall, your insulting and superior attitude is going too far. I have no reason to accept being insulted in a moderated forum.

#5195
Onyx Jaguar

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Oh I see what you did there

#5196
Lumikki

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Orchomene wrote...

If you want, I can show you some extracts of what you said stating that Ecael's arguments are proofs.

SithLordExarKun wrote...

Kalf, you're a disgrace
seriously, people actually prove you wrong and you absolutely refuse to
accept it and still try to argue like you're the end be all. [...]

Really,
ecael made VERY logical points, but you, simply being the arrogant
individual you are w, simply chooses to ignore it because you cannot
accept being wrong and is simple way to arrogant to do so.

You
ask for people to make logical arguments and provide evidence, yet when
people do so, you refuse it and accuse them of trolling instead and on
the other hand, you yourself has yet to even offer a single shred of
proof other than your own deluded opinions which always get proven
wrong.

Those did not say anything about fact. They just say Ecael makes very logical arguments and people should not just ignore them. There is different what's writen and how someone wants to understand what's writen. This is because someone wants to understand writen text on one way, because it's easyer to accept than what's really sayed. Like assumption what's writen, when it's not even writen. Human mind is good content filter, it skips the unpleasent parts and only takes what it wants. Good way to look at is, go to forum where you quated someone only partly way. Ask you self, why you quoted this part and did you skip the unquoted part for purpose. That's filtering of mind. Not just because you wanted to quote sertain stuff, but because it fits your personal goal. Not sure, if I can say this for others well.

Modifié par Lumikki, 08 juin 2010 - 05:33 .


#5197
Siegdrifa

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Onyx Jaguar wrote...

@Siegdrifa I think Bioware have written themselves into a hole in regards to the plot in order to keep this going as a trilogy. ME 1 did a good job with this but it pretty much exhausted much of its story potential in regards to the Reapers. ME 2 on the other hand tried to do a straight path approach but it really didn't have any impactful moments until the final mission. Sure there was a bit of menace but no real drive. I do not see how if they tie ME 3 again with the Reapers as they did with ME 2 how they will reconcile this as in regards to ME 1 the Reapers were a plot twist and not the main focus at first.


I agree.
But there is still lot to tell about the reapers, since they are the big menace of the mass effect univers, they are pulling the strings in the dark for a unknown purpuse.
And from what we know of the reapers in ME1, it would be appropriate to think there is something above them (since they are machine).
I just hope it won't turn like a Dragon Age like scenario...

#5198
Max Legend

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Mesina2 wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...
Granted I liked Damping but Stasis was extremely... useless?


Stasis, stop charging enemies.
Damping, disable biotic powers from enemies.
Very usefull.


I missed those CC powers.They could've put them in the second game but accompanied with a svere penalty just to make it a double edged sword.Kinda like the higher you upgrade them in duration and power the higher the cooldown effect will be.

#5199
Max Legend

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Siegdrifa wrote...

I just hope it won't turn like a Dragon Age like scenario...


QFT.Still it's way too early for what the story might be.Till then we can only speculate.

#5200
CroGamer002

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Max Legend wrote...

QFT


Off topic.
What QFT means?!