10273 réponses à ce sujet

[Homebound]

I hate resource hunting...I finished the game like 7 times now and every time I had to mine planets for resources..Its a pain.

[Pocketgb]

Tempest wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

7a7ec wrote...
 the RPG elements of the game were dumbed down to a kindergarden level,

What do people mean when they say "RPG elements," anyway? Is it "things that other CRPGs typically have"?

Seriously? Have you not been reading what people have been saying repeatedly over the last five months?

Thing is, RPG is so broad of a term nowadays that its very hard to pinpoint.  On one hand you have the abillity to manipulate where you want to focus your strengths on, like what was seen on ME1.  On the other end the points are put on for you like FF.   Both are considered RPG elements but people can be doubtful.  Some games have a massive inventory like RPG's (Action/Adventure games do this often).
I just see it now as, well to be frank I can't pinpoint it as well as I used to.  Tomb Raider had an okay story and a massive inventory, but was not an RPG because it lacked "lvling up".   So....to make a game an RPG you need a lvl up system than?  I mean, if you took lvling up out of FF and ME it would be an Action/Adventure game than?
I just keep thinking that and it seems that the games would be classified in that fashion.

It's more to do with the mechanics that existed in ME1. Here's how I see it:
ME1 - RPG/Shooter hybrid with poor RPG mechanics
ME2 - RPG/Shooter hybrid with few RPG mechanics

The route they've gone with ME2 isn't a bad one. People are ticked off with what Bioware's done, this is completely true, but people would also be ticked off if ME2 wasn't what it was.

We're all Mass Effect fans here, we just all wanted something different out of it. It's been having a rocky road with its fans since way back when it was announced. I recall the *very* old forums having quite a lot of people upset at the fact that it was going to be introducing shooting and aiming into the mix.

Modifié par Pocketgb, 14 juin 2010 - 06:12 .

[AlanC9]

Sure, I've been reading. But I'm still looking for a definition because the term doesn't seem to have any actual meaning. except the one I just gave.



Why is inventory and loot any more important for an RPG than, say, drawing your own map on graph paper?

[KitsuneRommel]

AlanC9 wrote...

Why is inventory and loot any more important for an RPG than, say, drawing your own map on graph paper?

"Ok. Joe, you'll be the map maker this time. Mark, you'll take care of the party inventory and Jill gets the honor of bringing us coffee."


I remember making huge hand drawn maps for games like Saboteur 2, Dungeon Master and Chaos Strikes Back. Now if I need a map I just google it.

[Terror_K]

Well, when I personally say it dumbed down and lacked RPG elements I'm referring to several things that are lost, such as the following:-



* Stats no longer determining your ability to shoot a weapon whatsoever.

* The complete scrapping of any non-combat stats. Even persuasion is incorporated into a combat-skill now.

* Half as many skills overall, with less variation in class builds.

* The weapons system basically being reduced to a standard shooter one, with little variety in the items department and said items being governed entirely by their "feel" now and completely lacking in any statistical data/attributes to summarise and define them, or to compare them to similar items.

* The completely linear items system, where each and every item is in the same exact place every time and getting every item is pretty much inevitable, with no challenge or variation whatsoever. There's no incentive and no reward, the stuff is just thrown at you. Its about as deep as playing single-player Quake and finding each weapon as you progress. No... I lie actually: Quake was deeper because sometimes they were actually in hidden locations and harder to find. Everything just falls on your lap in ME2.

* The loss of weapons modding.

* The loss of armour modding.

* The loss of armour classes.

* Armour being mostly cosmetic now, with no statistical attributes at all. It doesn't really even act like armour: more just like a thing to have with a bonus attribute. Meaningless and shallow when it performs no other function. It's nice that it's split up now instead of always just being one piece, but the individual parts have no real identity. Its less armour and more like just wearing a bunch of Rings or Necklaces in a Fantasy RPG.

* The loss of decryption and hacking ability being determined by a statistical skill/attribute, or even a class.

* That XP is almost meaningless now with no context beyond the overall mission. XP may as well be a random arbitrary number in the current system, as we're given no indication as to what we're actually getting XP for directly. To compare it to something, its like the difference between getting back a fifty-question multi choice exam you did with each question individually marked as to whether its correct or incorrect and being given one with only an overall grade on it and no indication where one was right or wrong. It also doesn't help that the amount you get is exactly the same no matter what you do or how you accomplish the quest.

* Omni-tools and Biotic Amps are gone completely, let alone reduced to shooter models with no stats. They simply don't exist and no longer factor.

* Regenerating health. A standard modern shooter convention that takes away the need to have a vitality or healing-based skill, as well as items related to this.

* Exploration pretty much gone.

* A far more linear approach to... well, pretty much everything. Far fewer variations on going about a quest, with pretty much everything reduced to getting from A to B with combat. Few non-combat solutions. Pretty much no alternatives or branching out in levels, with everything pretty much a straight line.

* Shallow leveling system that goes for instant gratification rather than gradual improvement.

* The loss of new abilities opening up as you progress a skill. Split up at 4th skill level is nice, but doesn't change much or provide two completely different paths; generally just a trade-off between more damage over more time, more damage over more defense, or more damage to one target over wider damage to more, etc.

* Certain classes no longer needed. Companions less crucial, meaning you can pretty much take anybody with you rather than needing somebody who compliments and offsets your class. No need for a tech character at all any more, since non-combat tech requirements no longer an issue.

[Pocketgb]

Yet so much of that can also be argued to be applicable to ME1 as well, not to mention how some systems can be stepping stones for something far more interesting (personally I see that in the armor system).
It's all going to come down to perspective. The fact that this thread is still going strong, with decent points from both sides of the field, really highlights Bioware's predicament with the Mass Effect series.

Modifié par Pocketgb, 14 juin 2010 - 07:13 .

[Tempest]

Terror_K wrote...

Well, when I personally say it dumbed down and lacked RPG elements I'm referring to several things that are lost, such as the following:-

* Stats no longer determining your ability to shoot a weapon whatsoever.
* The complete scrapping of any non-combat stats. Even persuasion is incorporated into a combat-skill now.
* Half as many skills overall, with less variation in class builds.
* The weapons system basically being reduced to a standard shooter one, with little variety in the items department and said items being governed entirely by their "feel" now and completely lacking in any statistical data/attributes to summarise and define them, or to compare them to similar items.
* The completely linear items system, where each and every item is in the same exact place every time and getting every item is pretty much inevitable, with no challenge or variation whatsoever. There's no incentive and no reward, the stuff is just thrown at you. Its about as deep as playing single-player Quake and finding each weapon as you progress. No... I lie actually: Quake was deeper because sometimes they were actually in hidden locations and harder to find. Everything just falls on your lap in ME2.
* The loss of weapons modding.
* The loss of armour modding.
* The loss of armour classes.
* Armour being mostly cosmetic now, with no statistical attributes at all. It doesn't really even act like armour: more just like a thing to have with a bonus attribute. Meaningless and shallow when it performs no other function. It's nice that it's split up now instead of always just being one piece, but the individual parts have no real identity. Its less armour and more like just wearing a bunch of Rings or Necklaces in a Fantasy RPG.
* The loss of decryption and hacking ability being determined by a statistical skill/attribute, or even a class.
* That XP is almost meaningless now with no context beyond the overall mission. XP may as well be a random arbitrary number in the current system, as we're given no indication as to what we're actually getting XP for directly. To compare it to something, its like the difference between getting back a fifty-question multi choice exam you did with each question individually marked as to whether its correct or incorrect and being given one with only an overall grade on it and no indication where one was right or wrong. It also doesn't help that the amount you get is exactly the same no matter what you do or how you accomplish the quest.
* Omni-tools and Biotic Amps are gone completely, let alone reduced to shooter models with no stats. They simply don't exist and no longer factor.
* Regenerating health. A standard modern shooter convention that takes away the need to have a vitality or healing-based skill, as well as items related to this.
* Exploration pretty much gone.
* A far more linear approach to... well, pretty much everything. Far fewer variations on going about a quest, with pretty much everything reduced to getting from A to B with combat. Few non-combat solutions. Pretty much no alternatives or branching out in levels, with everything pretty much a straight line.
* Shallow leveling system that goes for instant gratification rather than gradual improvement.
* The loss of new abilities opening up as you progress a skill. Split up at 4th skill level is nice, but doesn't change much or provide two completely different paths; generally just a trade-off between more damage over more time, more damage over more defense, or more damage to one target over wider damage to more, etc.
* Certain classes no longer needed. Companions less crucial, meaning you can pretty much take anybody with you rather than needing somebody who compliments and offsets your class. No need for a tech character at all any more, since non-combat tech requirements no longer an issue.

As said before all the elements you mentioned found in Action/Adventure game. (

• weapon modding -Megaman Legends
• Exploration-Metroid
• Using items to heal-classic casltevania
• Shallow lvl system-Final Fantasy.  All the xp does is bring up one lvl.  You don't even get a choice of where to place the points in earlier versions.
• Non Liniar-Metroid
• Armor modding- Mega-man classic.  yeah it don't get no crazier than that.
• Regenerating Health-In quite a few Action/Adventure games you get a single item that regenerates your health automaticly.
• classes no longer needed-I give you a point there.  That I was hoping would be fixed.
• Branching abilities-  This was a toughy.  Infamous is the most recent at the moment.  Maybe Force Unleashed.  I'd say Magic Sword as well.  Some Airplane games have branching abilities.
• Omni-tools/biotic amps-  Actually I am quite happy that everyone had it.  I would have been happy that you would do something with them gameplay wise than being omitted.
• Stats determining ability to shoot a weapon-  Do you have any idea how rediculous it would be to see an officer with the title of "Commander" being inept with a current firing weapon at anytime?  "Commander Shepard why is your aim off?" "Oh, because I need to practice more/lvl up with the weapon"  "How did you become a commander again?"
• Non combat skills-  yeah I was hurt by that too.

I am not saying that it lacked ALOT of what it originally had.  I just can't agree that it lacked "RPG" based elements.

[7a7ec]

Terror_K wrote perfectly the things that were "dumbed" down , you can all argue what "RPG" even means but it wont change that all this things are still missing from the game...

[Terror_K]

Just because many of these things can be found in other genres doesn't mean they aren't RPG elements. After all, shooting can be found in many games that aren't shooters. Punching in games that aren't beaters. Leveling abilities can be found in games that aren't RPGs. Many games sometimes have RPG elements in them but aren't strictly RPGs.

[Jebel Krong]

terror_k i'd just like to say 2 things:



'magical healing vases' or 'spells' are just as annoying and unbelievable as auto-regenerating health.



linearity: unlikely to change given the current technology. given the strive for a steady framerate you will necessarily see smaller hubs, for instance, but packed with much more detail. barren 'UNC' worlds in me1 had nice sky-boxes but not much else, the N7 missions offer a better alternative, if they could be expanded and improved.

[Terror_K]

Jebel Krong wrote...

terror_k i'd just like to say 2 things:

'magical healing vases' or 'spells' are just as annoying and unbelievable as auto-regenerating health.

So... its more unrealistic to use a med-kit or apply a healing agent (which already exists in-universe and is used in a different manner) than to just magically hug your back to an object and feel fine in five seconds after being drilled with bullets?

Also, being "annoying" to a degree is somewhat the point. The ability to heal should be restricted somewhat. At the moment one can simply duck behind something out of harms way for a few seconds and all is fine... it makes combat too easy-going. I'll bet people would be far more careful in combat if they had a limited ability to heal themselves.

linearity: unlikely to change given the current technology. given the strive for a steady framerate you will necessarily see smaller hubs, for instance, but packed with much more detail. barren 'UNC' worlds in me1 had nice sky-boxes but not much else, the N7 missions offer a better alternative, if they could be expanded and improved.

First of all, I don't recall Oblivion and Fallout 3 having too many issues regarding this. For a more recent example, look at Red Dead Redemption. All big open areas and things run fine.

Secondly, I wasn't referring to UNC worlds so much as Noveria, Feros, Virmore, etc. not just being a line from A to B and having little alternate paths and branch-offs. As well as the actual structure of the missions allowing you to take them on multiple ways, with sub-quests within main quests, etc. Noveria was particularly good at this, and it wasn't exactly a big area. Heck, a lot of it was empty space in Port Hanshan, so there's no reason not to go for a similar approach in a more confined area. Alpha Protocol uses the UE3 engine too and managed to have some varied levels, but then its not as visually impressive as ME2 by quite a margin.

Finally, given what you said, I'm interested to see how Overlord handles exploration in just over a day, considering its apparently a little more akin to a UNC planet from the sounds of it, albeit more detailed like an N7 one.

[Pocketgb]

7a7ec wrote...

Terror_K wrote perfectly the things that were "dumbed" down , you can all argue what "RPG" even means but it wont change that all this things are still missing from the game...

We're not denying anything, we're fully acknowledging what's missing from the game (or at least we *should* be). But that's not the point.

The point is that both games presented interesting ideas, both games have plenty of faults. It all comes down to whether you prefer cherry or blueberry.

[KitsuneRommel]

Terror_K wrote...

Also, being "annoying" to a degree is somewhat the point. The ability to heal should be restricted somewhat. At the moment one can simply duck behind something out of harms way for a few seconds and all is fine... it makes combat too easy-going. I'll bet people would be far more careful in combat if they had a limited ability to heal themselves

In ME1 I just equipped every non-soldier with those medical armor mods. There were only few times where I needed to use medi-gel. If you want people to be more careful in combat make the combat more lethal. I don't remember running around like Rambo in Operation Flashpoint games.

Noveria was particularly good at this, and it wasn't exactly a big area.

Noveria was the ONLY one. Rest of the missions aside from UNCs were extremely linear.

[Orchomene]

Being an RPG is also to have a story that can be written differently.

In ME2, whatever the choices given to you, the story remains exactly the same with the exception of minor details (some deaths, some skipped missions).

ME1 was already poor at that.



About possible plot that would be better than the actual one of ME2 and is very adapted to a second part of the sequel, especially here is : in chasing the reapers, you are "used" by someone manipulated by the reapers. You learn it at about 80% of the game/story and either go further/follow this way or try to correct your mistake. It gives a pretty adapted climax for a second part giving some things to do in the third part of the trilogy.

[tonnactus]

Pocketgb wrote...

Yet so much of that can also be argued to be applicable to ME1 as well,

Insanity without a biotic?(starting at level one) I want so see that.

Modifié par tonnactus, 14 juin 2010 - 10:59 .

[tonnactus]

Tempest wrote...

[*]Stats determining ability to shoot a weapon-  Do you have any idea how rediculous it would be to see an officer with the title of "Commander" being inept with a current firing weapon at anytime?  "Commander Shepard why is your aim off?"

Not this again.Why commander shepardt has still to learn biotic or tech abilities? Wouldnt you expect that he/she could do such things from the start because the military have special forces that teach such things?

What is the reason that commander shepardt is to dumb now to inject ammunition of his choice???

Modifié par tonnactus, 14 juin 2010 - 11:05 .

[tonnactus]

KitsuneRommel wrote...
 If you want people to be more careful in combat make the combat more lethal.

Lol. But now not even rockets could kill shepardt with one hit. Enemy snipers dont exists anymore. Not even harbinger and scions could kill the player with one hit on insanity. At least in shooters like Doom saboath could kill you instantly with his bfg.

[kalle90]

Terror_K wrote...

Well, when I personally say it dumbed down and lacked RPG elements I'm referring to several things that are lost, such as the following:-

* Stats no longer determining your ability to shoot a weapon whatsoever.
...
* Certain classes no longer needed. Companions less crucial, meaning you can pretty much take anybody with you rather than needing somebody who compliments and offsets your class. No need for a tech character at all any more, since non-combat tech requirements no longer an issue.

That list is soooo quoted for truth. Lacking those things makes ME2 not so different from Gears of War or many other action games. Like I said in the other thread ME is getting rid of it's RPG elements while most other games whether they're action or sports games are adding them.

That said, I wouldn't want a traditional RPG where I just press the "Attack" button and hope the dice and stats are on my side a la KOTOR. As good as it was ME1 was better. ME2 does some things right but ultimately it's competing with too many games to win.

[Jebel Krong]

[quote]Terror_K wrote...

[quote]Jebel Krong wrote...

terror_k i'd just like to say 2 things:

'magical healing vases' or 'spells' are just as annoying and unbelievable as auto-regenerating health.[/quote]

So... its more unrealistic to use a med-kit or apply a healing agent (which already exists in-universe and is used in a different manner) than to just magically hug your back to an object and feel fine in five seconds after being drilled with bullets?

Also, being "annoying" to a degree is somewhat the point. The ability to heal should be restricted somewhat. At the moment one can simply duck behind something out of harms way for a few seconds and all is fine... it makes combat too easy-going. I'll bet people would be far more careful in combat if they had a limited ability to heal themselves.[/quote]

a healing agent is somewhat different to "oh i just got shot with a railgun, but i'll slap this on and i'll be fine. instantaneously!" plus the me1 system wasn't restrictive at all once you upgraded it a few times - short cooldown and you could pretty much spam it, or have the medical exoskeleton (which simply became standard in me2 - a logical choice).

[quote]Terror_K wrote...
[quote]
linearity: unlikely to change given the current technology. given the strive for a steady framerate you will necessarily see smaller hubs, for instance, but packed with much more detail. barren 'UNC' worlds in me1 had nice sky-boxes but not much else, the N7 missions offer a better alternative, if they could be expanded and improved.[/quote]

First of all, I don't recall Oblivion and Fallout 3 having too many issues regarding this. For a more recent example, look at Red Dead Redemption. All big open areas and things run fine.

Secondly, I wasn't referring to UNC worlds so much as Noveria, Feros, Virmore, etc. not just being a line from A to B and having little alternate paths and branch-offs. As well as the actual structure of the missions allowing you to take them on multiple ways, with sub-quests within main quests, etc. Noveria was particularly good at this, and it wasn't exactly a big area. Heck, a lot of it was empty space in Port Hanshan, so there's no reason not to go for a similar approach in a more confined area. Alpha Protocol uses the UE3 engine too and managed to have some varied levels, but then its not as visually impressive as ME2 by quite a margin.

Finally, given what you said, I'm interested to see how Overlord handles exploration in just over a day, considering its apparently a little more akin to a UNC planet from the sounds of it, albeit more detailed like an N7 one.[/quote][/quote]

oblivion and fallout also use completely different engines, and - disregarding oblivion as it's much older - fallout looks a lot worse than me2 - currently it's a tradeoff between looks and content, maybe by next-gen it will have changed. also some linearity does help with pushing the storytelling along. i don't really have a problem with the linearity on most of the main missions - even the plethora of warehouse settings, although i'd prefer more imaginitive ones, obviously - obviously they reduced the sizes of the main worlds for a reason. i would like to see the N7 ones opened up to be more than a 5-minute diversion though, and making them larger - with slightly less detail if needed - would be a cool way to add-in some of the "exploration" that was missing in me2.

i don't expect much from the "exploration" in overlord - the hammerhead is so arcadey - i'm actually dreading that. i'd prefer to trudge around on foot in a smaller, more detailed location(s) - visiting a couple of bases through a jungle, or through snow-capped mountains or whatever.

edit: btw alpha protocol does not use ue3 as far as i'm aware - they certainly never mentioned it in the preview videos.

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 14 juin 2010 - 11:21 .

[Lumikki]

7a7ec wrote...

Terror_K wrote perfectly the things that were "dumbed" down , you can all argue what "RPG" even means but it wont change that all this things are still missing from the game...

Yes, some of those are missing the game, but are they missed by players is other thing.

I mean, I miss some of those stuff, but some other stuff are actually good thing that they get rid of it. A few of the good stuff get rid are stats/skills affecting the gameplay. Yeah, those RPG stuff, because those did not make gameplay better, they did make it worst.

Examples:

Decrypction skill determined players ability get access to decryption. Totally waste of time skill, because it just forces players to put point there if player wants to do decryption. Because in the end it was player based skill anyway.

Weapons skills affecting accuracy. Oh my good how bad design. Actually trying to prevent player to make the shot. Hole aiming is player skill and now character skill trying to make it harder for player. So, that player has to counter affect the negative situation with player skill. Think about sniper rifle.

What about weapon skills like marksman what totally destroyed hole weapon combat balance and also make pistol feel totally different than pistols are. More like submachine gun. Totally bad game design there.

Persuade and intimidate skills. 100% uselless skills because it only meaned if you want the addional dialog option, you where forced to put one of them points when it was possible. This is hell of lot better done in ME2, even if most of players here don't even understand why. Because it's now about players gameplay choises in dialog chat what determines the option, not just general character progression.

My point here is that what the Terror_K wrote aren't all good thing. She/he just think so. Also many of them are just illusion and did not really make the game better. Example huge variety of items, when most the itmes where same items just different names.

Also some stuff are her/his self biased opinions. Example companions not needed. WTF, I never needed companions in both games. So, how is one better than other? That's what I, mean biased opinions.

Modifié par Lumikki, 14 juin 2010 - 11:30 .

[KitsuneRommel]

tonnactus wrote...

Pocketgb wrote...

Yet so much of that can also be argued to be applicable to ME1 as well,

Insanity without a biotic?(starting at level one) I want so see that.

A soldier with Ashley and Tali? Why not.

[tonnactus]

KitsuneRommel wrote...


Noveria was the ONLY one. Rest of the missions aside from UNCs were extremely linear.

Definetly not.Virmire have an alternative path too where you could avoid to fight two geth destroyers and a juggernaut.

[tonnactus]

KitsuneRommel wrote...

A soldier with Ashley and Tali? Why not.

Surviving krogan melee attacks without colossus heavy armor and master immunity? I doubt that.

[kalle90]

tonnactus wrote...

Tempest wrote...

[*]Stats determining ability to shoot a weapon-  Do you have any idea how rediculous it would be to see an officer with the title of "Commander" being inept with a current firing weapon at anytime?  "Commander Shepard why is your aim off?"

Not this again.Why commander shepardt has still to learn biotic or tech abilities? Wouldnt you expect that he/she could do such things from the start because the military have special forces that teach such things?

What is the reason that commander shepardt is to dumb now to inject ammunition of his choice???

Also true. That applies to every single RPG and some other games too. Why are Cloud, Revan and even Batman so weak? Commander Shepard should have all his skills atleast halfway to the max from the start if look at it from the realism standpoint.

The save migration does some good, but it's still pathetic. I do think that it would be nice if we could migrate all our stats in ME, place up to ~20 skill points when we create a character or start some Final Fantasy game with a level 30+ character.

[tonnactus]

Jebel Krong wrote...


edit: btw alpha protocol does not use ue3 as far as i'm aware - they certainly never mentioned it in the preview videos.

http://www.techcentral.co.za/alpha-protocol-choose-your-weapon/14794/