10273 réponses à ce sujet

[drunkenposter]

"Vigil's story actually illustrates what a waste ME 2 was.  Here was a golden opportunity to explore the final days of the Protheans, and show just how horriblle a threat the Reapers are."


Yep. 

[AlanC9]

Terror_K wrote...
\\This is just an example, but the same pretty much applies to most of the changes made in ME2. Looking back players didn't want the formula to change so much, and mostly wanted more of the same but simply done better, with perhaps a few additions here and there, some of which they got (armour design, interrupts back, no texture-pop, etc.). So whether the changes were received well or not, they weren't what the player base was asking for.

That's probably true. i was asking for inventory to be yanked back when they were designing KotOR, but I'm an oddball  -- and besides, I knew that it was hopeless, since no WotC-licensed product would ever go that route.

[drunkenposter]

On a side note, how do you quote someone else with those handy little boxes around the part you want to quote?

[Iakus]

Pocketgb wrote...

iakus wrote...

Part of the problem with this is the whole point of ME 2 has been Shepard forming personal bonds with the crew.  The whole recruitment and loyalty being the thrust of the story pretty much demands interpersonal and, yes, emotional contact.  ME 1 would skate by without that, since everyone on the team was already focused on bringing Saren down.  ME 1 was one big mystery/chase.  ME 2 is supposed to be about preparing for a suicide mission.  A little more emotional intensity is demanded there.

There was a lot of emotional connection, but spread albeit thinly due to the massive number of party members. DA didn't fail in this regards but suffered from a "meh" story.

It'll be interesting to see what they'll do for ME3. I wouldn't be opposed to having another big number of squadmates like ME2 since I love looking at a variety of faces, but seeing things a bit more personally connected would be sweet to see as well.

We will have to see, but ME 2 has me really worried.  This worry could be baseless and ME 3 will be the "best of both worlds"  But somehow I have the impression that Bioware is willing to sacrifice story for action.

Pocketgb wrote...

iakus wrote...

Ironically, it's is ME 1 that had more intensity, at least for me. Matriarch Benezia's final words to Liara  still gives me a lump in my throat.that nothing In ME2 can match (no not even the interrupt in Tali's loyalty mission, though that is a good one)

I dunno, that part always struck me as corny for some reason. Looks like I'll have to fit in another playthrough of ME1, eh?

"You have always made me proud, Liara"  while Liara is urging Benezia to fight the indoctrination.  She loses that fight and you are forced to kill her.  The whole scene was so tragic to me; the end result of good intentions gone horribly horribly wrong.

Modifié par iakus, 16 juin 2010 - 05:05 .

[ShakeZoohla]

drunkenposter wrote...
For me, there was nothing in ME2 with the emotional, immersive heft of, for example, the following moments in ME:

1) Convincing Saren to comit suicide.
2) The conversation with Sovereign.
3) And, especially, the conversation with Vigil. The sad story of the demise of the Protheans was filled with more pathos than anything I've encountered in any other videogame.

Agreed, the second two are for me the greatest moments of Mass Effect, and by far any other game I've played.  ME2's best moments just lack the weight that these had.  This is probably because ME2's best moments happen in loyalty quests, which really just feel like sidequests, and also because ME2 hardly has a plot.

Oh and to quote you just hit the "quote" button above a post.

Modifié par ShakeZoohla, 16 juin 2010 - 04:56 .

[sausageson]

Personally I think I am the few people here that think ME1 worlds look better than 2 and im talking about the planets which have no main or sidequests on them just a few enemies and mines to explore. Added so much immersion, I will try to reinstall ME1 and post some screens. But they got rid of those worlds instead of adding something to do on them, bad choice.

[drunkenposter]

[quote]ShakeZoohla wrote...
Agreed, the second two are for me the greatest moments of Mass Effect, and by far any other game I've played.  ME2's best moments just lack the weight that these had.  This is probably because ME2's best moments happen in loyalty quests, which really just feel like sidequests, and also because ME2 hardly has a plot

Agreed. The best moments in ME2 come in the loyalty quests, but those moments feel so disconnected from .... well, everything. They're these little short stories. interesting on their own terms. In the grand scheme of things, however, they're almost kind of silly. I mean, the entire galaxy is at stake, and these people can't do a good job onless they first resolve their daddy issues? What a bunch of pansies!]

[drunkenposter]

So, I managed to quote you, but my own response to your quote was also include in the handy little box. I'm missing something.

[ShakeZoohla]

drunkenposter wrote...

So, I managed to quote you, but my own response to your quote was also include in the handy little box. I'm missing something.

Haha. You must have deleted the /quote at the end of what I said.

[AlanC9]

Terror_K wrote...
Like I said though, they'll conveniently ignore the clashes between gameplay and narrative when it suits them. It only becomes an issue when the factor gets in their way.

Perhaps, but I don't know why what "they" think is of interest to us. I'm bothered when gameplay doesn't support the narrative, period. You, apparently, aren't bothered at all.

For example, having a greater selection of weapons in each type with visible stats and the ability to mod them gives me far more variety and customisation. How can you say this isn't a good thing in an RPG? Having more weapons of each type gives me more choices, having visible stats and abilities with them gives me a clear indication as to how each one performs and where their strengths and weaknesses are (many have complained that they have to go to the ME wiki just to find this currently with ME2) and thus gives me a choice in which type I'd prefer, while modding allows me to upgrade my gun in a meaningful way, making it more personal while also forcing me to pick and choose between various options so I can have a weapon that suits my playstyle. Items being randomised means I don't always know where they are, and forces me to perhaps put up with a lesser weapon for a while until I can find a better, as well as giving me a "thrill of the hunt" and sense of surprise when coming across stuff, which is much like the difference between opening an Xmas present and just seeing what it is as it lies beneath the tree unwrapped. I fail to see how all these factors can't be considered better than ME2's  complete lack of weapon variety, with items always in the same place every time, a completely linear progression system and no ability to modify your weapons, customise them or make them personal in any way, shape or form.

First, random vs. defined item locations is something of a side issue. My RPG experience is that fixed locations for important loot is much more common than random loot; you only see random loot when the loot isn't important in the first place, because the designers don't want to blow up game balance. ME1 is very much an outlier here, especially for Bioware (though I believe DA loot is semirandom). A lot of players prefer the fixed loot because they can plan character development around it.. I've seen those arguments pop up before, but I don't really have a dog in that fight.

As for the substance, I should be clearer.  I don't have any problem with weapon variet as a way to make gameplay choices. What I'm objecting to is the specialness of  particular weapons and the escalating treadmill of weapon powers. I object to this both as a matter of general RPG design -- the character should be special, not his stuff -- and because this mechanism is in direct conflict with the ME setting.

I also have no faith in Bio's designers being able to balance multiple types of a single weapon. But then again, I don't have any faith in their ability to balance any other combat factor.

No, that's by your definition. By my definition people should get over this and just ignore it.Otherwise RPGs will be limited to only ever being about farmboys becoming "the chosen ones" or heroes with amnesia. If somebody were to play as Shepard and run around like an idiot shooting at the walls and ground and never hitting an enemy, constantly running into the wall and dying every two minutes because they never hit anybody then the game is clearly flawed because you're not automatically a badass. Same principle, since Shepard is now only as good as a player's skill. If a player sucks, does that mean the game is broken because it automatically doesn't make them win?

.

 RPGs don't have to be about heroes with amnesia or chosen ones if you don't force RPGs to always start players at level 1. Unless RPG simply means starting weak, full stop. That's why it's your definition of an RPG that's at issue here. By my definition of an RPG starting a character very powerful wouldn't stop it from being an RPG. 

And players sucking is the sort of strawman you're normally better than. Even a poor FPS player can get through the SP mode of a game. If his character makes it through, his character is that good. Reloads and such don't matter.

[SkullandBonesmember]

Pocketgb wrote...

Based on what?

[sarcasm]Based on absolutely nothing. The members here make up such a minute percentage of the Mass Effect fanbase after all. NOBODY knows how to do a Google search for their favorite developer's websites. We make up such an obscure bunch, not even amounting to 5 percent of the players, right? Of course.[/sarcasm]

Pocketgb wrote...

bjdbwea wrote...

1. For shooter players, the game is amazing...

Too bad all that dialog is in the way for them

When you get down to it, as I've said, dialogue is practically optional. All one has to do is keep pressing the A/X button or whatever the equivalent on the PC is. You're forgetting(or ignoring) MOST dialogue is optional. Nobody is forced to speak with the crew. The excessive combat ISN'T optional though. Oh, and there's the whole feeling of entitlement to all games with guns that most shooter fans possess. Mass Effect NEEDS to play like a shooter. Despite you all have countless games released every year that cater to your tastes and we don't.

[AlanC9]

Why is it I only agree with SaBM when he's joking?

[Massadonious1]

Man, I'm sick and tired of you perpetuating the notion that developers are somehow spiting you for "not making the games I want...they all make shooterz......waaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!"



As you've said in another thread some time ago, there is a market for it. Those particular developers that made Alan Wake, Heavy Rain, Indigo Prophecy, etc. clearly didn't do it out of the goodness of their hearts. They clearly knew they had people to sell their products to.



However, some developers are clearly just niche developers. Do you really expect companies like Bungie or Infinity Ward to go completely off the reservation and start making squad/story based RPG's, not based on any of their current IP's, just for the heck of it, or just to gain credibility with the story/RPG kiddies? They have a stable and reliable fanbase that will consistently buy their games/expansions and spend ridiculous amounts of cash on equally ridiculous things like map packs and weapons. Why on earth would they do anything to jeopardize that?



I don't know what you're expecting out of the industry, but gaming isn't a essential life service, nor is it a charity. Video game developers are going to put out products that they feel will make them a profit or at least keep them in business, regardless if it's your prefered genre or not.



Get over it. Seriously.

[Darth Drago]

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

When you get down to it, as I've said, dialogue is practically optional. All one has to do is keep pressing the A/X button or whatever the equivalent on the PC is. You're forgetting(or ignoring) MOST dialogue is optional. Nobody is forced to speak with the crew. The excessive combat ISN'T optional though. Oh, and there's the whole feeling of entitlement to all games with guns that most shooter fans possess. Mass Effect NEEDS to play like a shooter. Despite you all have countless games released every year that cater to your tastes and we don't.

-That’s the thing that bugs me most, the shooter aspect in non fantasy RPG’s. Its like a role playing game set in a modern or sci-fi setting must use some other means for combat or something? To quote a line from one of my fave films Aliens: “Frost: What do you expect us to use man, harsh language?”

In today’s mentality if a game has guns its considered a shooter over anything else in most cases, shooter/RPG. for example. Yes, Mass Effect games have and require a shooter game mechanic to play the game but I consider them RPG’s rather than shooters. That shooter game mechanic shouldn’t take center stage over the rest of the game and that’s whats happened with ME2. The proof is in the forums with how many people want to see or suggest the idea of multiplayer or co-op added into ME3. Its even being suggested for Dragon Age 2.

[7a7ec]

I suppose I can understand that people just didn't like Kaiden/Ash/Liara, but I don't see how anyone could argue that the nuts and bolts of the romances were handled better in ME2. One of the first things that broke the immersion of ME2 for me was when my Femshep, in basically her first conversation with Jacob, lustily leaned back against a table and in an extremely flirty voice asked to get to know him better. No, my Shepard just wouldn't do that. She sure as hell didn't in the first game. Just felt like a different character ...

iakus :
More disturbing is maleShep, while sounding more casualand not so flirty sits in the exact same position.  It looks really, really awkward.  I hope Ashely, my Shep's "babe with a boomstick" doesn't find out

So true, I often cringed when my male Shepard was seducing Miranda, He talked and acted like a rapist...

Modifié par 7a7ec, 16 juin 2010 - 07:58 .

[SkullandBonesmember]

Massadonious1 wrote...

Man, I'm sick and tired of you perpetuating the notion that developers are somehow spiting you for "not making the games I want...they all make shooterz......waaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!"

As you've said in another thread some time ago, there is a market for it. Those particular developers that made Alan Wake, Heavy Rain, Indigo Prophecy, etc. clearly didn't do it out of the goodness of their hearts. They clearly knew they had people to sell their products to.

However, some developers are clearly just niche developers. Do you really expect companies like Bungie or Infinity Ward to go completely off the reservation and start making squad/story based RPG's, not based on any of their current IP's, just for the heck of it, or just to gain credibility with the story/RPG kiddies? They have a stable and reliable fanbase that will consistently buy their games/expansions and spend ridiculous amounts of cash on equally ridiculous things like map packs and weapons. Why on earth would they do anything to jeopardize that?

I don't know what you're expecting out of the industry, but gaming isn't a essential life service, nor is it a charity. Video game developers are going to put out products that they feel will make them a profit or at least keep them in business, regardless if it's your prefered genre or not.

Get over it. Seriously.

Oh, of course. Get over it elitist.

Well, if you remember that post of mine, you should remember me saying there's not a lack of different kinds movie/TV/and book genres. There's enough for everybody. So if you admit games like Heavy Rain AND Mass Effect 1 can make a profit, why the hell are so little titles like them released compared to the plethora of shooters?

[Pocketgb]

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

[sarcasm]Based on absolutely nothing. The members here make up such a minute percentage of the Mass Effect fanbase after all. NOBODY knows how to do a Google search for their favorite developer's websites. We make up such an obscure bunch, not even amounting to 5 percent of the players, right? Of course.[/sarcasm]

I've never said that what you've been saying has been insignificant. I've been saying that you need to stop pulling numbers out of no where. Cut the attitude.

I'm not saying that this thread is pointless, rather that the appearance of a few vocal players is only representative of those players. Speak for yourselves, not for others.

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

When you get down to it, as I've said, dialogue is practically optional. All one has to do is keep pressing the A/X button or whatever the equivalent on the PC is.

Like this?

7a7ec wrote...

So true, I often cringed when my male
Shepard was seducing Miranda, He talked and acted like a rapist...

But the priiiize...

Modifié par Pocketgb, 16 juin 2010 - 08:11 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

Mass Effect 1 is nothing like Indigo Prophecy. Mass Effect 1 is like KOTOR. And Jade Empire, and Dragon Age to an extent.

[SkullandBonesmember]

Pocketgb wrote...

Like this?

That's in Zelda, that's never been in either Mass Effect.

[cachx]

SkullandBonesmember wrote...
The members here make up such a minute percentage of the Mass Effect fanbase

Well... yeah... most normal people play a game and then let it go... we're just still arguing here because of masochism 

SkullandBonesmember wrote...
Oh, and there's the whole feeling of entitlement to all games with guns that most shooter fans possess. Mass Effect NEEDS to play like a shooter. Despite you all have countless games released every year that cater to your tastes and we don't.

I don't really see other games with good story, characters, setting, decisions, or dialogue out there. The fact that the main gameplay mechanic is shooting is completly irrelevant to me. From the videos I have been seeing of this year's E3, you could show me a picture of Crysis 2, Gears 3, Killzone 3 or the new MoH and I probably could not tell the difference.

By the way, amazing how you keep hanging to the "everybody disagreeing with me is a crazed shooter fan", and how they are "destroying the opressed poor RPG-people". talk about false senses of entitlement.

Also, some people may wan to get through David Gaider's stages of grief (originally written on the DAO forums)

Stage 1: Denial
Posts of "no,it can't be true!" and "maybe they didn't mean what we think it means!"

Stage 2: Anger
As the truth sinks in, posts of "Bioware, you have betrayed all that is good and righteous!" and furious predictions of financial collapse and boycotts, etc. etc.

Stage 3: Bargaining
Hopeful posts of "Well, if we don't get X will we still get Y?" and "Well, since there's still Z maybe X won't seem that bad" or even "Will we be able to change X ourselves?"

Stage 4: Depression
"Bioware is dead", "RPG's are dead", etc. ad nauseum as that glorious, scintillating might-have-been is now really gone.

and finally Stage 5: Acceptance
You see whatever game it is for what it actually is and enjoy it on its own terms.

or, alternatively Stage 5: Acceptance
You realize it's not the game for you, but might be for other people. You move on.

or,if you really must, you go back to Stage 1: Denial
You refuse to accept the presence of X in your beloved game, or any game for that matter, and begin a bitter campaign to convince everyone else that it is the travesty you think it is. If you play the game, you are determined to hate it-- and voila! You do! Possibly you hang out on RPG Codex.

Edits: fixing formatting.

Modifié par cachx, 16 juin 2010 - 08:20 .

[Pocketgb]

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

Pocketgb wrote...

Like this?

That's in Zelda, that's never been in either Mass Effect.

<_<

*swoosh*

[SkullandBonesmember]

Pocketgb wrote...

*swoosh*

Sure it went over my head. Because Zelda is totally relevant to Mass Effect.

[Onyx Jaguar]

I got it. For what that is worth.

[darkshadow136]

The new DLC Overlord was released today. I just finished my first
playthrough of this long awaited DLC content My full review is below.
BEWARE MAY BE SPOLIERS.

The DLC on a overall is poor I would rateit a 3 out of 10. You again get to control the Hammerhead tank for most
of this mission, or as I like to call it the Wussytank. As in the
Firewalker Pack the Hammerhead tank is very weak you get hit once your
dead, you get scratched your dead, and let us not forget when you are in
the tank you cannot save your game anywhere. This was a great annoyance
in the Firewalker pack, and continues in this DLC as well.

Thereis not much content in this DLC you spend most of your time resuming
your last save after getting blown up in the Hammerhead tank versus
actual game content. There are few rewards for going through this DLC
you get one armor upgrade heavy skin weave 6 of 6 and thats it. There is
no new abilities, weapons, armor, squadmates, or any other upgrades.

This is pretty much a DLC with lack of content and it is only lengthy
because of the Wussyhead Tank. On a more positive note though the story
was decent, and the voice acting as always is top knotch. The bottom
line though is this DLC worth the $7.50 for MP's, No it is not. Kasumi
stolen memories was a much better DLC and it cost less and you got more
armor upgrades, a new weapon, and a new squadmate.

It is a real shame Bioware seems to be nickle and diming us for lackluster content.
Although most of the Hammerhead tank combat is optional in this DLC, if
youare a completionist gamer like myself you have to complete it. Also
atsome points Hammerhead tank combat is not avoidable and unlike the Mako
from ME1 where you can survive a half dozen shot till you find some
cover in order to do repairs. In the Hammerhead tank you even get hit with
one glancing shot and you blow up.

For a tank of any type that is unrealistic to get taken out with one shot. they should fix that
in a patch, and also make it possible for you to save you game at anytime
you are not in combat inside the tank.

On an overall minus the DLC's though. I liked Mass effect 2 although I believe they took to much away that was good in ME1. Like looting,  long explorations of cities. They made ME2 to linear when it comes to exploring cities and areas. Like the Citidel for example they have most of it closed off and there is very little to explore.

Another thing that is missing is a variety of side quests. Most of the game is built around  mainly building your team. Admiril Hackett for instance is very much missing from the Normandy requesting your assitance. Not to mention many other Npc's that could give you more quests if you could explore more of the cities.

There are more I could add but I hit some of the main points that I find room for improvement or just a plain disappointment.

Modifié par darkshadow136, 16 juin 2010 - 08:26 .