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Disappointment With Mass Effect 2? An Open Discussion.


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#5976
Terror_K

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bjdbwea wrote...

Don't worry, I won't, if ME 3 doesn't improve significantly. But our only chance to maybe make that happen is to voice our opinion here. A very small chance, and I do suspect ME 3 will be an even more dumbed down, "streamlined" shooter, but a chance nevertheless. As SkullandBonesmember said, unfortunately there are almost no alternatives. Good RPGs were always rare, but most of the industry have already gone done the route BioWare is on now, so there are even less these days.


Its hard to gauge at the moment, especially Casey Hudson's recent interview. On one hand we have Casey saying that he has no regrets and thought everything in ME2 was done well, yet on the other he also says there are things they'll do differently now and he acknowledges that some fans wanted richer RPG elements, but then goes on to say there is limited time and resources and changes can't be too drastic. He also says that they listen to player feedback and how the players play something and want to play it and adjust accordingly, but... yeah. Then there's Christina Norman who also acknowledges the complaints and says that they're looking at adding some deeper RPG elements, but yet seems to almost turn up her nose at those who were dissatisfied, thinks they're a small minority barely worth notice and is clearly a huge fan of oversimplification given several comments. It doesn't give me confidence, but its really hard to gauge. It doesn't help that in the wake of ME2's release the once ever-present devs are quieter on the forums than I've ever seen them. BioWare was once known for its interaction with its fans, but that seems to have disappeared lately. I suspect that the semi-backlash regarding ME2 may have something to do with it.

#5977
Pocketgb

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[quote]SkullandBonesmember wrote...

THERE WAS MORE DIALOGUE RECORDED FOR ME2. Yeah. More recorded, ultimately less said.[/quote]

That's a pretty strange thing to be upset about. The "quantity" of dialog is nothing compared to the quality of it. BG2 had far more dungeon crawling than conversation (I'd like to say the same for DA:O but maybe that's because I felt like the Deep Roads went on forever :sick:) but the dialog was immensely enjoyable. That's what you should be discussing here.

Sooooo...Is it the quality of the chit-chat that's decreased since the sequel that upsets you?

[quote]SkullandBonesmember wrote...

Wow. Just wow.

Most of the fans that bit**** that the combat sucked in ME1 orgasmed playing ME2.[/quote][/quote]

"OPINIONS
OPINIONS EVERYWHERE"

[quote]iakus wrote...

Bioware
used to be the one company I'd buy any game they made, sight unseen. 
They made rpgs, and good ones.  Still do I guess, what with Dragon Age
and all. Still,  I have to be careful with this company too now,  Ah
well, nothing lasts forever.  [/quote]

I learned that with Jade Empire and ME1, even though ME1 was a pleasent surprise.

Modifié par Pocketgb, 16 juin 2010 - 01:56 .


#5978
Gonzox84

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This is my first posting on this forum so I wouldn't know what people are most disappointed about. As far as the last few posts go, however, I would have to guess that the dialogue is the hot topic of discussion. Personally I have felt that all of the bioware games that have come out have created whole universes bases on the dialogue of their games, and as such, the heart and soul of them comes directly from it. With that in mind, along with the seamless (and obvious) improvements to the combat system, ME2 astounds me in how much of an improved game it is over its predecessor. Its really one of the first games in a long time (since ME1, really) that has me playing it more than twice (on my 8th playthrough as we speak).

What is disappointing about it? Only that there is a limit to how much game there really is on a single playthrough. I really wish that this game went on forever.  There is just a plethora of possibility and character among the game's cast that intrigues me to no end. 

As a side note, it is also the only series that has me actually buying the literary supplementation other than Resident Evil.

Modifié par Gonzox84, 16 juin 2010 - 02:07 .


#5979
Darth Drago

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FlyingWalrus wrote...

Yes, as he said. You will very rarely—almost never—find a game series whose titles haven't had sometimes dramatic changes in between installments. That's simply the nature of game development. I'm willing to bet that the kind of gameplay that's on ME2 would never function on the clunky version of Unreal Engine that ME1 ran on, for example.

And contrary to Onyx's statements, even games within FPS titles often undergo dramatic changes. The shift from limited health to regenerating health in Halo to Halo 2 was a very dramatic game design change, and not one that everyone was entirely happy with. Halo 2 to Halo 3 was mostly the same, though; 3 was mostly a refining of 2's game mechanics. The upcoming Halo Reach, however, plays very differently.

And Call of Duty games are virtually incomparable to one another. The jump between CoD3 to CoD4 is massive.

-Not to burst your bubble but Halo always had regenerating shield/health. What little changes that were made between all 3 Halo games are not even close to drastic ones either, unlike the almost complete overhaul that was given just to ME2.

Just look at the controls and menus for example. After playing the first Halo, I can jump in to any Halo game without looking at the manual and instantly know what the controls are and how it plays. You can not do that by going into either ME game. They have different controls and even their menus are not even the same. How many times have anyone here almost loaded a game they were trying to save?

ME2 is a completely different game from ME1. Doing a complete overhaul like this in a trilogy of games is not common to the gaming community. You don’t see Madden Football change everything from year to year, every Dynasty Warriors (except the first one) plays almost exactly the same, Doom 1-3, Dead or Alive, Street Fighter, even old faves like Zelda, Sonic, Pokemon and a hell of a lot more games I could list all play the same and don’t make drastic changes between each game as much as was made just between ME1 into ME2.

Modifié par Darth Drago, 16 juin 2010 - 02:25 .


#5980
Lumikki

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Darth Drago wrote...

ME2 is a completely different game from ME1.

Can You name any game what is more close to ME1 than ME2?

#5981
Jaron Oberyn

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[quote]Pocketgb wrote...

[quote]SkullandBonesmember wrote...

THERE WAS MORE DIALOGUE RECORDED FOR ME2. Yeah. More recorded, ultimately less said.[/quote]

That's a pretty strange thing to be upset about. The "quantity" of dialog is nothing compared to the quality of it. BG2 had far more dungeon crawling than conversation (I'd like to say the same for DA:O but maybe that's because I felt like the Deep Roads went on forever :sick:) but the dialog was immensely enjoyable. That's what you should be discussing here.

Sooooo...Is it the quality of the chit-chat that's decreased since the sequel that upsets you?

[quote]SkullandBonesmember wrote...

Wow. Just wow.

Most of the fans that bit**** that the combat sucked in ME1 orgasmed playing ME2.[/quote][/quote]

"OPINIONS
OPINIONS EVERYWHERE"

[quote]iakus wrote...

Bioware
used to be the one company I'd buy any game they made, sight unseen. 
They made rpgs, and good ones.  Still do I guess, what with Dragon Age
and all. Still,  I have to be careful with this company too now,  Ah
well, nothing lasts forever.  [/quote]

I learned that with Jade Empire and ME1, even though ME1 was a pleasent surprise.
[/quote]

It seems that once EA got a hold of them, they've went down. Their standards aren't as high. Its a shame, but EA will get it one day. ****** off enough fanboys, and it's game time. ;) Usually how it works lol.

 -Polite

#5982
Orchomene

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Lumikki wrote...

Darth Drago wrote...

ME2 is a completely different game from ME1.

Can You name any game what is more close to ME1 than ME2?


Sure, Kotor.
Close structure, close inventory, close size of crew, close gameplay. The plot is also about investigation of a figure enemy and a big ship that controls the mind.
Thus, Kotor is closer to ME1 than ME2 is.

#5983
kalle90

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Onyx Jaguar wrote...

This happens all the time, in fact outside of Call of Duty and Halo very rarely do you see a sequel that is so similar to its predecessor.  Things needed to be addressed and they were and quite frankly for many of us, for the better. 


Like many reviewers and players have said the problematic mechanics of ME1 were simply cut off instead of even looking for ways to improve.

1. The cluttered inventory - "Lets remove it" - They could have made the interface clearer and faster
2. Clunky action - "Lets make combat the main focus" - They could have made the cover system a bit more responsive and make AI better. Plus make weapon skills better for the soldiers and other fighter-types. Something like *You have sniper skill open from start and adding just 1 point to it makes you quite accurate*. They didn't have to change the entire level design to support fast paced shooting.
3. Elevator scenes - "Lets just use loading screens" - I don't really see the problem. Sure the elevator scenes were long and usually uninteresting but they were still better than a just an empty loading screen. You could say the solution would have been to add more news and dialogue.
4. Useless and tedious skills - "Lets just simplify it and open all skills to everyone" - Again just improving the skill system would have been enough. Make the effects of 1 point a bit more noticeable and fix some of the illogicalities (You need to be this good with rifles to be able to handle snipers). Basically the same applies to upgrades.

Can't think of any other issues, but they probably were simply cut off too.

And I wouldn't care about this either if this was a new game series or a spinoff. But this is ME2 and I expect to be able to play and enjoy ME3 too

#5984
spacehamsterZH

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The God of War games are all nearly identical. Maybe the "true RPG fans" are saying they wish ME was more like God of War.



I mean, I don't understand a word these people say, so this could be it.

#5985
xCirdanx

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spacehamsterZH wrote...

The God of War games are all nearly identical. Maybe the "true RPG fans" are saying they wish ME was more like God of War.

I mean, I don't understand a word these people say, so this could be it.


I agree with you 100%...God of War isn´t even an RPG....it´s a plain simple action game...and they are all the same, oh here..a new combo/weapon...bah...played one played all. (and yes i have played all) GoW3 was the same, fun for some hours than you are done. No real challenge at all, predictable and you can´t even call this story telling.

However these games aren´t meant to be like a crpg. Or a real one. RPGs and GoW have nothing in common.

#5986
Hlista

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im just wondering... but did anyone notice that bioware actually made SPACE the most closterphobic experience in a videogame? the mission success screens at the end made me feel like i was playing an action game more then an RPG, and the fact that they just load you into your mission ruins immersion completely.
Also the fun thing about an RPG is to spend the extra time to get way over powered in combat or w.e you are doing, but it felt like in ME2 that you spend that extra time just to get the perfect ending and end the game the way its supposed to end.

#5987
xCirdanx

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Hlista wrote...

im just wondering... but did anyone notice that bioware actually made SPACE the most closterphobic experience in a videogame? the mission success screens at the end made me feel like i was playing an action game more then an RPG, and the fact that they just load you into your mission ruins immersion completely.
Also the fun thing about an RPG is to spend the extra time to get way over powered in combat or w.e you are doing, but it felt like in ME2 that you spend that extra time just to get the perfect ending and end the game the way its supposed to end.


interesting, now show me please where bioware made a game called SPACE. i though i own every game from them.

no the RPG , has the RolePlaying in the name, overpowered is something that doesn´t fit with that..actualy..in my world :blink:

#5988
Max Legend

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Hlista wrote...

Also the fun thing about an RPG is to spend the extra time to get way over powered in combat or w.e you are doing, but it felt like in ME2 that you spend that extra time just to get the perfect ending and end the game the way its supposed to end.


Sentinel is pretty op even on insanity.I'm all like "Cant touch this".

Well.pretty much every class can be op if you invest your talent points properly.

#5989
Iakus

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Pocketgb wrote...

iakus wrote

Bioware
used to be the one company I'd buy any game they made, sight unseen. 
They made rpgs, and good ones.  Still do I guess, what with Dragon Age
and all. Still,  I have to be careful with this company too now,  Ah
well, nothing lasts forever. 


I learned that with Jade Empire and ME1, even though ME1 was a pleasent surprise.


before ME 2, I figured Jade Empire was the weakest Bioware game.  But even that had its charm, and an interesting story to tell.  After that, I decided even a mediocre Bioware game was better than most other games out there.

Turns out my standards only go so low.

Modifié par iakus, 16 juin 2010 - 08:56 .


#5990
Mx_CN3

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I have the feeling that most of the people that are disappointed with ME2 just want a tweaked ME1. Why are you guys such proponents of the "played one played them all" mindset? That keeps games from evolving. ME2 has its problems, sure, but at least it isn't a more expensive expansion pack to a previous game that so many other developers would call a sequel.

Of course I could be completely wrong about most of you, and I intend no offense to those I have misjudged.

#5991
Iakus

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spacehamsterZH wrote...

The God of War games are all nearly identical. Maybe the "true RPG fans" are saying they wish ME was more like God of War.

I mean, I don't understand a word these people say, so this could be it.


iakus wrote...

I can already hear the protests: "You just want Mass Effect 1 all over again!"  No, I don't.  In fact, Mass Effect 2 might have been a worthy "Mass Effect 1" on its own.  There was little enough indication that anything had happened beforehand.     What  I wanted (and still want) is a continuation, not a wholly separate game that happened to be set in the same universe. In effect, I wanted" Mass Effect 2", not "Mass Effect Too"



#5992
Orchomene

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At least about my feelings, you are wrong. I didn't feel ME1 was a very good game. But at least it had some story whereas ME2 is just an accumulation of quests. An action/adventure game with a scenario of the level of command & conquer.

TIM : "Shepard, go there, kill the enemies and report."

Shepard : "Sir, yes sir !"

#5993
tonnactus

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Massadonious1 wrote...

However, some developers are clearly just niche developers. Do you really expect companies like Bungie or Infinity Ward to go completely off the reservation and start making squad/story based RPG's, not based on any of their current IP's, just for the heck of it, or just to gain credibility with the story/RPG kiddies?


Why not based on current IPS??

Microsoft decided to make Halo Wars.A rts based on halo.Epic include light rpg elements in their next game .Cliffy B. said in some interviews that he saw the future of shooters in rpgs.

#5994
tonnactus

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FlyingWalrus wrote...
 I'm willing to bet that the kind of gameplay that's on ME2 would never function on the clunky version of Unreal Engine that ME1 ran on, for example.


Never played Gears of War...
It justs that the bioware team failed at this time.

#5995
FlyingWalrus

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Darth Drago wrote...

FlyingWalrus wrote...

Yes, as he said. You will very rarely—almost never—find a game series whose titles haven't had sometimes dramatic changes in between installments. That's simply the nature of game development. I'm willing to bet that the kind of gameplay that's on ME2 would never function on the clunky version of Unreal Engine that ME1 ran on, for example.

And contrary to Onyx's statements, even games within FPS titles often undergo dramatic changes. The shift from limited health to regenerating health in Halo to Halo 2 was a very dramatic game design change, and not one that everyone was entirely happy with. Halo 2 to Halo 3 was mostly the same, though; 3 was mostly a refining of 2's game mechanics. The upcoming Halo Reach, however, plays very differently.

And Call of Duty games are virtually incomparable to one another. The jump between CoD3 to CoD4 is massive.

-Not to burst your bubble but Halo always had regenerating shield/health. What little changes that were made between all 3 Halo games are not even close to drastic ones either, unlike the almost complete overhaul that was given just to ME2.

Don't worry, you're not bursting anything, because in order to be bursting anything, you'd have to be right.

Halo had limited health. The shields always regenerated, but in the first game, you had to replenish your health with a health pack if you were running low. This is also going to be the case in Halo Reach.

Just look at the controls and menus for example. After playing the first Halo, I can jump in to any Halo game without looking at the manual and instantly know what the controls are and how it plays. You can not do that by going into either ME game. They have different controls and even their menus are not even the same. How many times have anyone here almost loaded a game they were trying to save?

For the most part, I think you guys are smart. I refuse to believe that you or anyone else here was so dumb that you couldn't intuit the controls going from ME1 to ME2. I did it easily, but I don't think that's because I was smarter or anything like that. There were quite a few changes, but it's nothing that took me more than a couple of minutes realizing. ME2 was different, but not that different. The menu is virtually identical apart from the absence of the Inventory tab.

ME2 is a completely different game from ME1. Doing a complete overhaul like this in a trilogy of games is not common to the gaming community. You don’t see Madden Football change everything from year to year, every Dynasty Warriors (except the first one) plays almost exactly the same, Doom 1-3, Dead or Alive, Street Fighter, even old faves like Zelda, Sonic, Pokemon and a hell of a lot more games I could list all play the same and don’t make drastic changes between each game as much as was made just between ME1 into ME2.

See the above, and you'd be wrong on most of those examples as well. No Sonic game from the past ten years has been the same as the one before it, the leap between Doom 1 and 2 was minimal, but 3 is a virtually different game, and I'm not even going to get into how different each Zelda game is from one another as a matter of design. Street Fighter games are virtually incomparable to each other because each version has like three further sub-versions of itself (for the express purpose of making gameplay tweaks and changes). Madden Football? The '06-'09 games are a period of upheaval because they were trying different changes to the gameplay. The only example I'd give that you have a leg to stand on are the Dynasty Warriors, DOA, and the Pokemon games, but even the latter have experienced an enormous amount of changes while the core gameplay remained the same. Breeding, IV/EV training anyone?

Some developers play it safe and release the same thing every title with minimal changes, if any. Dynasty Warriors is one such title. Most people like me would balk at it because there's nothing differing from one to the other, and yet there is enough of a fandom to keep KOEI pumping those games out.

Fact is change is a part of the gaming industry and it's not unusual for game mechanics to be altered or changed in the middle of a series. The only common denominator is that the main purpose of all these games remains the same: Doom is still a shooter, Zelda is still an adventure game in all its incarnations, Pokemon is still a JRPG, Street Fighter is still a 2D plane fighter, an Madden Football is still a sports simulator. In light of some of the changes these titles have undergone, the changes to ME2 are relatively trivial.

Modifié par FlyingWalrus, 16 juin 2010 - 09:45 .


#5996
Lui77

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i was only really dissapointed with the end boss, and like, the change in scope that i felt wherever i went, but i absolutely loved number 2 just as much as the first and i hope that the third will deliver as good an experience if not the best :)

#5997
bjdbwea

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FlyingWalrus wrote...

Fact is change is a part of the gaming industry and it's not unusual for game mechanics to be altered or changed in the middle of a series.


So you believe change for the sake of change is always a good thing. Well, you are not alone in that, obviously. But here's a newsflash: In reality, it's not. No one would have complained if BioWare had developed better means of providing an inventory. Instead, they cut it out altogether. Yeah, it's change. But is it an improvement? No. Same with the Mako, same with loading screens. Yeah, it's change to dumb down gameplay mechanics. Is it better? No. Yeah, it's change to go from spoken briefings to text boxes. Better? No. And of course it's change to go from an amazing story on par with any good movie to a dozen unrelated short stories loosely tied together by a main plot that barely deserves the name. Is it a change for the better? Of course not.

Bottom line: If you have a proven concept, there sometimes is no need for change. I guess they figured it would sell better (dumbing down seems to be somewhat like the answer to everything in the gaming industry these days), but there are indications it actually didn't even accomplish that.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 16 juin 2010 - 09:54 .


#5998
Onyx Jaguar

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ok, I see where this is going. They cut out the elevators, they did not replace them with loading screens they just modified the levels to be more flat. The loading screens replaced other loading screens for the most part (yeah I know the elevator on the Normandy)



The inventory wasn't cut out it was changed to a load out system, however it doesn't have as much options as the original.



The gameplay mechanics are not really dumbed down, outside of biotics being nerfed I have no trouble playing ME 2 like I played ME 1. Hell I'm not really using cover and am relying on Tech and Biotic skills in my current playthrough.



Cutting out the Mako? If it means cutting out copy and pasted worlds and putting in levels that are built up from the ground up and different then oh yes, cut that crap out. Those open worlds were the easy way out, and now they have been replaced by 10 character specific side missions and a few other N7 sidequests.



And on each of the main missions you do get spoken briefings. I do not see where you are going with that.

#5999
ShakeZoohla

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Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Cutting out the Mako? If it means cutting out copy and pasted worlds and putting in levels that are built up from the ground up and different then oh yes, cut that crap out. Those open worlds were the easy way out, and now they have been replaced by 10 character specific side missions and a few other N7 sidequests.


No, that's not what it means.  It means they cut out a big aspect of gameplay from the first game, that added another layer and helped to keep things diverse.  Like it or not a lot a lot of people enjoyed the mako, and those copy and pasted worlds. 

#6000
Onyx Jaguar

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ShakeZoohla wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Cutting out the Mako? If it means cutting out copy and pasted worlds and putting in levels that are built up from the ground up and different then oh yes, cut that crap out. Those open worlds were the easy way out, and now they have been replaced by 10 character specific side missions and a few other N7 sidequests.


No, that's not what it means.  It means they cut out a big aspect of gameplay from the first game, that added another layer and helped to keep things diverse.  Like it or not a lot a lot of people enjoyed the mako, and those copy and pasted worlds. 


And like it or not, a lot of people hated the mako.  Look, I'm not against a change of pace, that was something that ME 2 sorely lacks.  However the Mako represents Filler to the extreme. 

Modifié par Onyx Jaguar, 16 juin 2010 - 10:20 .