10273 réponses à ce sujet

[tonnactus]

Il Divo wrote...
In a squad-based tactical shooter, I want to bring party members with the intention that they are going to be useful.

Krogan want to charge a engineer shepardt? Liara singularity or kaidans lift saved him/her from dead.
So they are usefull

Your combat party members are largely useless because the AI is terrible. Ashley and Wrex aren't going to kill Geth for me while I throw overloads from the back.

Then you made something wrong.With the attack command you could even advise them to shoot at a specific target and/or charge it.

[tonnactus]

Davescarface wrote...

[qu
1 - Planet Scanning still works out quicker than landing on a planet and driving around in the Mako gathering resources.

Ressources gathering was completly optional in the first game. No one has to do it to improve his weapons or shields.

[BlackbirdSR-71C]

I think one of the biggest problems with Mass Effect 2 is, that the "side effects" of all abilities only work on unprotected enemies. "Side effects" for example,are, the overheating of enemy weapons of overload, the physical force of biotic abilities as well as the only purpose off neural shock, which paralyses enemies. The thing is, in my opinion, that all of these side effects are basically worthless, because once you stripped an enemy of their defense, you might as well just pop one or two shots in their head, finishing the job. Why waste your powers to stop them for a brief moment when you can just kill them? Would these effects work through defenses, you might consider taking Mordin with you since neural shock would be immensely more powerful.

Another problem was the absence of real decisions in gameplay; sure, there were very few purchaseable upgrades which made you think, but even these you could all buy in the end. The rest of the upgrades were just found throughout the missions. Now there are 2 prolems with that:
1. There are no side missions, meaning you get every upgrade anyway
2. You don't know which upgrae you get on which mission or which upgrade would be helpful for which mission.

Last problem: I wasn't able to feel into most characters. First because they never show any kind of gesture or facial expressions. Also the voices, in my opinion, while not terrible, carried no emotions whatsoever. Remember that scene, when you meet "archangel" on omega. I don't recall exactly what Garrus said, but it was a wooden equivalent of "Nice to see you." No surprise whatsoever; no happiness to see shephard again, nothing. All the while he was just sitting there, in a semi-cool pose. Why exactly should I care about characters that act nothing like real persons? And no, it's not just the aliens. It's the humans as well. You think Joker would show remorse or anything since he's the reason shephar DIED?! No, you can't expect that. An as we learn, after shephards death, he just continued working as usual. No depression, nothing.

Modifié par BlackbirdSR-71C, 18 juillet 2010 - 06:55 .

[Il Divo]

tonnactus wrote...
Krogan want to charge a engineer shepardt? Liara singularity or kaidans lift saved him/her from dead.
So they are usefull

Thank you for pointing out the only useful or necessary tactic available. "Lift", then "Shoot". Bioware gameplay vids made this clear enough. Ashame the same can't be said for any of the combat abilities. Or squad movement mechanics. Or squad cover mechanics.

Then you made something wrong.With the attack command you could even advise them to shoot at a specific target and/or charge it.

Oh please, even when under orders, in the time it took my entire squad to kill a single enemy I could have ended the entire encounter.

[tonnactus]

Il Divo wrote...


Each was unique and served a purpose.

When I use Concussive Shot, it has an entirely different purpose than Throw. 

Concussive shot is basicly the soldiers throw. It knocks back enemies and is effective against barriers.So how this talent is unique?

When I use Throw, it has an entirely different use than Overload. Every ability is unique.

And when i used sabotage in Mass Effect,it also has an different puropse then overload.One thing reduces shields,the other overheat weapons.

When I use Lift, it's practically equivalent to using Singularity.

Wrong.Singularity sucked enemies together in one spot out of cover,perfect for a carnage shot.Lift didnt that.

Singularity didnt affect geth armatures and colossi,lift did. Still not "unique" enough?

When I use Marksman, it's equivalent to using Overkill.

Overkill reduces the heat.Marksmen did this too,but also increase the number of bullets fired.Different.

When I bring Garrus, the combination of Concussive Shot and Overload result in a very different play-style than when I bring Miranda (Warp and Overload) because every ability is now unique.

You always use two squadmembers anyway. Zaeed and Miranda result in exactly the same playstyle then...

Modifié par tonnactus, 18 juillet 2010 - 06:58 .

[tonnactus]

BlackbirdSR-71C wrote...

I think one of the biggest problems with Mass Effect 2 is, that the "side effects" of all abilities only work on unprotected enemies. "Side effects" for example,are, the overheating of enemy weapons of overload, the physical force of biotic abilities as well as the only purpose off neural shock, which paralyses enemies. The thing is, in my opinion, that all of these side effects are basically worthless, because once you stripped an enemy of their defense, you might as well just pop one or two shots in their head, finishing the job. Why waste your powers to stop them for a brief moment when you can just kill them?

Thats right.Even for defense stripping,ammo powers were better because they had basicly no cooldown.Fire ammo is better then incinerate.Warp ammo is better then warp. And disruptor is better then overload.

[BlackbirdSR-71C]

tonnactus wrote...

BlackbirdSR-71C wrote...

I think one of the biggest problems with Mass Effect 2 is, that the "side effects" of all abilities only work on unprotected enemies. "Side effects" for example,are, the overheating of enemy weapons of overload, the physical force of biotic abilities as well as the only purpose off neural shock, which paralyses enemies. The thing is, in my opinion, that all of these side effects are basically worthless, because once you stripped an enemy of their defense, you might as well just pop one or two shots in their head, finishing the job. Why waste your powers to stop them for a brief moment when you can just kill them?

Thats right.Even for defense stripping,ammo powers were better because they had basicly no cooldown.Fire ammo is better then incinerate.Warp ammo is better then warp. And disruptor is better then overload.

When you think about it, it really doesn't make any sense anyway...how can you convert biotic or tech powers into ammo? Is there little people inside the bullets that cast overload or warp on impact? It really confuses me...

[tonnactus]

Il Divo wrote...


Thank you for pointing out the only useful or necessary tactic available. "Lift", then "Shoot".

And now:Strip defenses and shoot.Wrong anyway. Mass Effect combat: Disable,lower protection,shoot, and,not to forget,defensive abilities like barrier and shield boost.

Yes,those things exist in the second game too,but no one use them because of the global coolddown and because some seconds in cover is enough to get full health and shields back.

Oh please, even when under orders, in the time it took my entire squad to kill a single enemy I could have ended the entire encounter.

Not my experience. But i place them at points where they didnt shoot at walls and use some combat optics.And because their weapon damage wasnt 50 percent of that what shepardt have,they actually kill  enemies. Even on insanity,i lifted the krogan boss on therum and tali basicly finish him off with a carnage shot.

[tonnactus]

BlackbirdSR-71C wrote...



When you think about it, it really doesn't make any sense anyway...how can you convert biotic or tech powers into ammo? Is there little people inside the bullets that cast overload or warp on impact? It really confuses me...

Its not so senseless.In Mass Effect, Proton rounds existed and some other ammo increase the cooldown of biotic and tech enemies.But warp ammo...

[BlackbirdSR-71C]

What I was trying to say, is the naming is flat out wrong. If it isn't related to the tech power incinerate, then why do they share the name? Or warp ammo, aside from making no sense, has the same problem.

[Pocketgb]

tonnactus wrote...

Mass Effect 2 gameplay=defense stripping in a boring rock,scissor,paper system.

Mass Effect 1 gameplay = IMMUNITY EVERYWHERE!

Arguing over which is more thoughtful/stupid is completely futile.

[lazuli]

tonnactus wrote...

And now:Strip defenses and shoot.

There are three different types of defenses, each with differing weaknesses.  The combat in ME2 has more depth than you're giving it credit for.

Try shaking up your playstyle.  You might get some more enjoyment out of it.

[Pocketgb]

Oh hey, a Guild Wars fan!

[Il Divo]

tonnactus wrote...
Concussive shot is basicly the soldiers throw. It knocks back enemies and is effective against barriers.So how this talent is unique?

Pull sets you up for a warp attack which is now useful for general combat. Concussive Shot was designed specifically to affect enemies with armor and stun them momentarily.  

And when i used sabotage in Mass Effect,it also has an different puropse then overload.One thing reduces shields,the other overheat weapons.

If you consider wasting time to be unique. Enemies were barely alive long enough for overheating their weapons to serve any useful purpose.

Wrong.Singularity sucked enemies together in one spot out of cover,perfect for a carnage shot.Lift didnt that.

Singularity didnt affect geth armatures and colossi,lift did. Still not "unique" enough?

Minor distinction. Singularity/lift both resulted in enemies levitating in the air and Shepard putting them down while they are unable to move.

Overkill reduces the heat.Marksmen did this too,but also increase the number of bullets fired.Different.

Again, minor distinction. Both skills result in Shepard mindless plugging enemies with their pistol or assult rifle. You seem to equate slight differences in abilities with providing "dozens of options". I consider it a waste of time, much like the level up system. What was the point in skill ranks which raised pistol damage by "1%" and the like? Either make each rank fun and unique, or condense it down. The illusion of depth is not depth.

You always use two squadmembers anyway. Zaeed and Miranda result in exactly the same playstyle then...

I don't understand your point here.

Modifié par Il Divo, 18 juillet 2010 - 08:43 .

[Il Divo]

tonnactus wrote...
And now:Strip defenses and shoot.Wrong anyway. Mass Effect combat: Disable,lower protection,shoot, and,not to forget,defensive abilities like barrier and shield boost.

Yes,those things exist in the second game too,but no one use them because of the global coolddown and because some seconds in cover is enough to get full health and shields back.

Yes, apparently 12 seconds is an incredibly long time in combat. Mass Effect 2 abilities are used more often because they have such short cooldowns. But hey, it beats 90-120 second cooldowns. ; )

And why are you overly complicating Mass Effect's combat? This is exactly what I mean. I never found myself needing to do more than lift +shoot. Hell, play with Kaidan and Liara and every encounter is this easy. Mass Effect is bursting with abilities which never even see the light of day.

Not my experience. But i place them at points where they didnt shoot at walls and use some combat optics.And because their weapon damage wasnt 50 percent of that what shepardt have,they actually kill  enemies. Even on insanity,i lifted the krogan boss on therum and tali basicly finish him off with a carnage shot.

I'm sure she did. I'm certain Tali and all your squad members performed admirably and you wouldn't have made it to Ilos without their repertoire of skills.

[lazuli]

tonnactus wrote...

Thats right.Even for defense stripping,ammo powers were better because they had basicly no cooldown.Fire ammo is better then incinerate.Warp ammo is better then warp. And disruptor is better then overload.

Ammo powers are just one way to deal with defenses, and will not always be the best option in every situation.  What if you don't want to waste thermal clips?  What if your opponents are balled up in the same area, just begging for an Area Overload or Incineration Blast?

Modifié par lazuli, 18 juillet 2010 - 08:57 .

[tonnactus]

lazuli wrote...

tonnactus wrote...

And now:Strip defenses and shoot.

There are three different types of defenses, each with differing weaknesses.  The combat in ME2 has more depth than you're giving it credit for.

What dept?
Barriers= Warp ,Reave(just an version of warp with healing and damage over time except defenses,Warp ammo
Armor= Fire ammo,fire power(incinerate blast
Sheilds= Disruptor ammo,overload,shield drain

Thats it. As much depth as rock paper scissors. Other powers are just gimmicks.Disabling was only possible when "protection" was down,but then most enemies as good as dead anyways.

[mrmike_1949]

you're all arguing about the combat, but for a good rpg, combat is secondary, and preferably turn-based. I guess that means that Mass Effect 1&2 are not RPGs, but shooters

[tonnactus]

[quote]Il Divo wrote...


Pull sets you up for a warp attack which is now useful for general combat.
[/quote]
Warp was always usefull in Mass Effect when someone play on hardcore or insanity. Some people just nether understand what it does and wonder then why they needed so much time to kill enemies on insanity.



[/Quote]

If you consider wasting time to be unique. Enemies were barely alive long enough for overheating their weapons to serve any useful purpose.

[Quote]
On what difficulties you played the first game?



[quote]
Minor distinction. Singularity/lift both resulted in enemies levitating in the air and Shepard putting them down while they are unable to move.

[Quote]

As minor as concussive shot is different then throw.Less force and barrier damage,longer cooldown time. Minor distinction for sure.


[quote]
 I consider it a waste of time, much like the level up system. What was the point in skill ranks which raised pistol damage by "1%" and the like? Either make each rank fun and unique, or condense it down. The illusion of depth is not depth.
 [/quote]

You mean as much difference it make if pull is 9 or 12 seconds?

Mass Effect Powers have ranks. Basic,advanced and master and some minor improvements between.

Andvanced lift allows to lift one geth armature. Master lift allowed to lift a geth colossus. Thats what i call a power evolution,not these crap to decide between more little more duration or an area effect.

Modifié par tonnactus, 18 juillet 2010 - 10:27 .

[Jaron Oberyn]

mrmike_1949 wrote...

you're all arguing about the combat, but for a good rpg, combat is secondary, and preferably turn-based. I guess that means that Mass Effect 1&2 are not RPGs, but shooters

Just because it's not turn based? So what does that make Jade Empire? Bioware is in the business of making RPG's. Just because the combat system is different doesn't make it any less of an RPG. How fun would it be to have a turn based KoTOR styled shoot-out in Mass Effect? That'd get really boring, really fast.

 -Polite

[tonnactus]

Il Divo wrote...


Yes, apparently 12 seconds is an incredibly long time in combat.

Thats not the question in a global cooldown system.Did i use some barrier that didnt protect me very long on high difficulties anyway or something usefull. In the first game,you activate it and could still use other powers.

And why are you overly complicating Mass Effect's combat? This is exactly what I mean. I never found myself needing to do more than lift +shoot. Hell, play with Kaidan and Liara and every encounter is this easy. Mass Effect is bursting with abilities which never even see the light of day.

If someone only played on normal,he/wouldnt see the use of damping or warp,thats right.
Thats the same in Mass Effect 2.But there the player dont even need powers aside from ammo powers on insanity.


If someone played on insanityin MAss Effect , starting from level one each ability was usefull.Especially sabotage and warp.

[mrmike_1949]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

mrmike_1949 wrote...

you're all arguing about the combat, but for a good rpg, combat is secondary, and preferably turn-based. I guess that means that Mass Effect 1&2 are not RPGs, but shooters

Just because it's not turn based? So what does that make Jade Empire? Bioware is in the business of making RPG's. Just because the combat system is different doesn't make it any less of an RPG. How fun would it be to have a turn based KoTOR styled shoot-out in Mass Effect? That'd get really boring, really fast.

 -Polite

There have been good RPGs that were not turn based, I know. My point was everyone seems to be only arguing about the differences in combat, so that tells me what is important to them. Even your response says it .." KotOR shoot-out" - your main interest is in the combat, not the RPG.

[lazuli]

mrmike_1949 wrote...

you're all arguing about the combat, but for a good rpg, combat is secondary, and preferably turn-based. I guess that means that Mass Effect 1&2 are not RPGs, but shooters

I have to disagree with you.  A good RPG needs a good combat system, otherwise it's just walking around and talking to people.  Those games are typically called puzzles or adventures.

[Pocketgb]

mrmike_1949 wrote...

There have been good RPGs that were not turn based, I know. My point was everyone seems to be only arguing about the differences in combat, so that tells me what is important to them. Even your response says it .." KotOR shoot-out" - your main interest is in the combat, not the RPG.

And if people want good RPG combat they shouldn't be coming to Bioware, because Bioware is terrible at it. After BG2 - and a certain degree, NWN - Bioware has been great at making entertaining combat systems and scenarios but they were always far from 'good'. I simply prefer ME2 over ME1 not because it's more in-depth (they're both pretty lackluster) but because ME2 entertains me more. That's it: It's flashier, it's more satisfying.

Play a Bioware game for the setting, the characters, the story. NOT for an in-depth combat system. Arguing over which game 'had more depth' is arguing about which trash bag has more junk in it.

[lazuli]

tonnactus wrote...

What dept?
Barriers= Warp ,Reave(just an version of warp with healing and damage over time except defenses,Warp ammo
Armor= Fire ammo,fire power(incinerate blast
Sheilds= Disruptor ammo,overload,shield drain

Thats it. As much depth as rock paper scissors. Other powers are just gimmicks.Disabling was only possible when "protection" was down,but then most enemies as good as dead anyways.

What you just described is depth.  What, do you want your combat system to write poetry for you?  You are given a set of tools (weapons + powers) and a set of problems (enemies + defenses + terrain).  You have to solve the problems with the tools available.

And enemies do not instantly die when they lose their defenses.  Some have regeneration, making them last even longer.  Some will turn their defenses back on.

You've obviously given ME1's combat a lot of thought, but I can't help feeling like you're still stuck in the mindset that worked so well for you in ME1.  ME2 is a different game, with a different type of depth.  Some things have been streamlined, yes, but I don't think it's fair to dismiss the combat in ME2 as shallow.  Here, I can do it to ME1:

If playing on lower difficulty, lift/singularity, shoot.
If playing on higher difficulty, lift/singularity, warp, shoot.

It's inaccurate and an oversimplification, just like you saying ME2's combat doesn't have depth.