10273 réponses à ce sujet

[bjdbwea]

I don't like this "middle part of a trilogy" excuse. It's a stand-alone game, as BioWare insist themselves. Of course there are overarching elements, but it can't rely so much on the next part for things to make sense. The SW series didn't do that either. As a writer, you need to make sure that you resolve the things that need resolving, and not outsource them into the next game, a comic or a DLC, or even the imagination of the player.

The main story in ME 2 is unfortunately simply badly written. Some ideas were very bad from the beginning, and some are okay, but weren't implemented properly.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 16 août 2010 - 11:29 .

[Sparda Stonerule]

bjdbwea wrote...

Indeed. Do you ME 2 apologists brush off any criticism as "hate" in real life too? Do you not think that criticism is sometimes needed to improve something? The author of these videos put a lot of work and thought into this. And even the professional writers at BioWare would do themselves a favor by watching it. Unfortunately, the so-called professional reviewers apparently don't see it as part of their job anymore to point out these things like smudboy did.

I just found this in another thread. Funny how it works. bwea just name your favorite game and I will direct you to someone who didn't like it and thought it needed vast improvements. Just because someone has a criticism that you agree with doesn't mean that it is automatically constructive. I really do get the impression that you really do not grasp the concept that no matter how many people think something is good there will be people who thought it was bad or were just let down by it. You don't seem to grasp that all of these things are just opinions and your opinion does not make anything fact.



Also it really annoys me that just because a professional reviewer didn't point out something you didn't like then they are not doing their jobs. Do you just go into any store, and when you see an employee doing something you don't like, tell them that they aren't doing their jobs? How would you like it if someone who knew nothing about you job and told you right to your face that you aren't doing your job? Again this comes back to you not seeming to grasp that your opinions are not facts. I do not know why you can't seem to understand that just because you agree with some other people means that there is something drastically wrong with the game.



For anyone interested the thread is this one: http://social.biowar...ndex/4430357/2. This is yet another example of how unreasonable and silly both sides of the argument can be.

[Sparda Stonerule]

bjdbwea wrote...
The main story in ME 2 is unfortunately simply badly written. Some ideas were very bad from the beginning, and some are okay, but weren't implemented properly.

Your opinion once again. However you almost come out and make it seem like this statement is a fact. I wish you would cut it out, especially since you tell us to leave our opinions out of it.

[Sparda Stonerule]

iakus wrote...



Finally got through them all. Very good points all around. I especially liked the analysis of Jack. And the "character merging" idea is truly intriguing.



Bioware should seriously look at these videos (the character and plot analyses) and keep them in mind while plotting out the story for ME 3. Heck they should be required viewing for the developers.

Oh my I found another little gem. This time from our good friend Iakus. He asserts that the developers be required to watch this because his opinion of the story is negative. Please people could you just keep your opinions out of things and not automatically assume your side is right when someone agrees with you.

[bjdbwea]

And I would like if you guys would stop repeating that over and over again. Every time someone criticizes the game, you go "that's just your opinion, don't claim it's a fact". When actually no one ever claimed that. Or do you find such a claim in that quote?

Yes, when I write something in a forum, it's usually my opinion. I do not need to say that every single time. Any reasonable reader who doesn't just want to argue sees and understands that it is my opinion.

By the way, what you wrote is just your opinion, and your opinion does not make anything fact.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 16 août 2010 - 11:43 .

[Fanbus]

Please people could you just keep your opinions out of things and not automatically assume your side is right when someone agrees with you.

Keep our opinions out of things? How about you quit telling people what to do? If we can't give our opinions then there is no discussion. You may as well call this place "The sitting around and staring around each other forum" because we wouldn't be able to offer praise either.

Why are you so concerned over people's opinions? Opinions dictate everything, even this game had a focus group who offered "opinions" as to things they liked and disliked, changes were made accordingly.

It was "opinions" that made ME2 what it is. Some folks offer opinions in an authoritive mater. This rubs you and others the wrong way. So what; maybe they have more gaming experience then you do? Maybe they have less. But that's what a discussion forum is about, to discuss their opinions and put fourth yours.

Modifié par Fanbus, 16 août 2010 - 11:49 .

[Sparda Stonerule]

I'm sorry I was assuming the point was to be objective and constructive. If everyones points are valid then in essence every entertainment piece ever made sucks ass because someone out there doesn't like it. When I see you people right things you seem to pass it off as a fact that this game is bad. That the story is bad. You will openly agree with people without explaining why and disagree with people and say that you disagree because this or that is bad.

I have tried time and time again to say I agree that your opinions are valid as long as you don't use them to try and prove that a game is good or bad. I want the third game to be a great game and I said that several times. I told you to suggest improvements if you honestly feel it will improve the game. However when people disagree with you, you default to "the plot is bad", "the game is dumbed down", "you need criticism to make this better". That isn't constructive or helpful you are just trying to justify your opinion of the game being bad.

What I am trying to do right now is point out people who were disappointed being hypocrites and basically trying to tell the developers what they need to do to make a better game. A lot of people liked Mass Effect 2, it wasn't bad to everyone. So yes opinions can be bad if you try to use them as proof of concept.

Modifié par Sparda Stonerule, 16 août 2010 - 11:56 .

[Lumikki]

The story situation in ME2 is more based how player want to take it. Like above Fixers0 talked how he/she feels like Shepard is kinda "slave" for TIM and afraid. If player thinks that, then it's comming from player, not from game. Meaning, I never feeled that way or I nerver thinked that I was forced to join anything.

When I played ME2, I did not like or trust TIM at all. But that doesn't mean I can't use TIM resources to get my Specter job done, if TIM is fool who let me do it. So, when I played I thinked more like let this fool think I'm working for him, while I use his resource and get best ship in galaxy for free. What I'm doing, is what I have allways done as Specter, keep order in galaxy by force if needed. If some enemy think they can kill mass of humans and no-one cares, they are mistaken.

Now if you really ask then why did you feel the way you did and not like me. I think it's simple, you wanted story to be something else and could not accept it as what it was. There is one rule in any story based game, you can not do ANYTING agaist story.

Example if you have played kotor 1 or 2 or DAO or ME1 or ME2. You can't do anything agaist story, you are forced to play story as it's design by game developers. What happens when you don't like something in story? It drops you interest to the game and you start thinking that story is bad. It's not really the story, but player ability deal with it.

Example from Kotor 2. When I was in Telos and entering in Polar base. There was cut scene with dialog. You could choose in dialog to be hostile, but story doesn't let you to be hostile. So, what ever you did choose, the end result was exactly same, you lay down you weapon by your own choise. Even how hostile player it self would want to situation to be. Can I choose not to have Kreia with me and throw her out of air lock? No, because it's agaist story. It doesn't matter how much player hates some npc or story design. Same is with ME2 and it's squad members and story. You can't play agaist story.

Every story is allmost 100% linear. ME1, ME2, Kotor 1 & 2 and DAO. All has totally linear stories. You may sometimes choose what order you do some part of story, but you are allways forced to do them all. Also some games guide more and some less, but it doesn't change anything, you are still forced to do story exactly way it was design.

My point is that all of these games are exactly similar "linear", when it comes to story. Only real differences are how the game design and details are done. Meaning how gameplay works.

Modifié par Lumikki, 17 août 2010 - 12:13 .

[bjdbwea]

Sparda Stonerule wrote...

What I am trying to do right now is point out people who were disappointed being hypocrites and basically trying to tell the developers what they need to do to make a better game. A lot of people liked Mass Effect 2, it wasn't bad to everyone. So yes opinions can be bad if you try to use them as proof of concept.

Are you going to point out people who liked the game as well? Because by your definition, every statement that doesn't contain "in my opinion" is an undue selling of opinion as facts. As you say, there are people who like the game and tell BioWare not to listen to the "haters". Aren't they guilty of the same thing then? So please, just accept that everyone has an opinion and is entitled to voice it, and this is how a forum works.

Or are you maybe asking people to elaborate on their opinions, instead of merely stating them? That would be a valid request, but most of it is already in this very thread.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 17 août 2010 - 12:13 .

[Sparda Stonerule]

bjdbwea wrote...

Sparda Stonerule wrote...

What I am trying to do right now is point out people who were disappointed being hypocrites and basically trying to tell the developers what they need to do to make a better game. A lot of people liked Mass Effect 2, it wasn't bad to everyone. So yes opinions can be bad if you try to use them as proof of concept.

Are you going to point out people who liked the game as well? Because by your definition, every statement that doesn't contain "in my opinion" is an undue selling of opinion as facts. As you say, there are people who like the game and tell BioWare not to listen to the "haters". Aren't they guilty of the same thing then? So please, just accept that everyone has an opinion and is entitled to voice it, and this is how a forum works.

Or are you maybe asking people to elaborate on their opinions, instead of merely stating them? That would be a valid request, but most of it is already in this very thread.

I'm merely requesting you realize that the game isn't bad to everyone. The plot isn't bad to everyone. The changes aren't bad to everyone. 

Also considering that there are a lot more people who blindly defend ME 2, pointing out every thing they do wrong would be a massive undertaking. Besides you and people like Iakus and to some degree Smud are much better at voicing things. So when smart people say things like the writing is unfortunately simply worse" it bugs me a bit because I know you are capable of saying that in a much more constructive and less derogatory light.

I've never said you were wrong or tried to assert that I am right in thinking about how I think about the game. I just want to conversation to take a more positive turn to what both sides can come up with to make the third came as good as it can theoretically be. Unfortunately I am overly analytical and not very creative so all I can do is agree or disagree with other peoples ides, and even then it's hard to know how well that idea would work inside the game.

[Lumikki]

He/she is saying that if someone is disapointed and asking to change game because that. It's they opinion, but they should remember that there is alot of players who aren't disapointed and may not like the changed what you want.

My point how ever is that, Bioware should only listen if there is enough support to disapoinment without major disagreements. Because if player bases opinion is split to some case, it's not anymore design problem, but players different taste of games.

So, you are allowed to say you opinion as what you want, but don't make it as fact what would need to be changed, because you want so. Nor should anyone else think that it's fact that it should not be changed, because they don't want it to be changed.

In the end it's game developers who deside what kind of game they want to do.

Modifié par Lumikki, 17 août 2010 - 12:27 .

[Sparda Stonerule]

Lumikki wrote...

He/she is saying that if someone is disapointed and asking to change game because that. It's they opinion, but they should remember that there is alot of players who aren't disapointed and may not like the changed what you want.

My point how ever is that, Bioware should only listen if there is enough support to disapoinment without major disagreements. Because if player bases opinion is split to some case, it's not anymore design problem, but players different taste of games.

So, you are allowed to say you opinion as what you want, but don't make it as fact what would need to be changed, because you want so. Nor should anyone else think that it's fact that it should not be changed, because they don't want it to be changed.

In the end it's game developers who deside what kind of game they want to do.

Well now that you mention it I would like that. It is a little hard to make changes based on criticisms when there is a lot of argument about it. It may muddle up the discussion and show that there is no clear support either way. It really is hard to strike a balance.

[Lumikki]

Sparda Stonerule wrote...

Well now that you mention it I would like that. It is a little hard to make changes based on criticisms when there is a lot of argument about it. It may muddle up the discussion and show that there is no clear support either way. It really is hard to strike a balance.

Sometimes yes. How ever, there is only few bigger stuff what have caused major disagreements here. Mostly the disagreement are in minor details and not really big deal. There is also few stuff what most players here seem to agree. So, yes, it's really hard to see where the balance is and what should be done, because so much arguing the minor details. There was one good list about what should be done, but I don't know what happen to that post. Why it was good? Because it was list what most people here would agree.

[Sparda Stonerule]

Lumikki wrote...

Sparda Stonerule wrote...

Well now that you mention it I would like that. It is a little hard to make changes based on criticisms when there is a lot of argument about it. It may muddle up the discussion and show that there is no clear support either way. It really is hard to strike a balance.

Sometimes yes. How ever, there is only few bigger stuff what have caused major disagreements here. Mostly the disagreement are in minor details and not really big deal. There is also few stuff what most players here seem to agree. So, yes, it's really hard to see where the balance is and what should be done, because so much arguing the minor details. There was one good list about what should be done, but I don't know what happen to that post. Why it was good? Because it was list what most people here would agree.

I agree. Even I'm guilty of squabbling over details that probably aren't part of the bigger picture.

[Iakus]

Sparda Stonerule wrote...

iakus wrote...

Finally got through them all. Very good points all around. I especially liked the analysis of Jack. And the "character merging" idea is truly intriguing.

Bioware should seriously look at these videos (the character and plot analyses) and keep them in mind while plotting out the story for ME 3. Heck they should be required viewing for the developers.

Oh my I found another little gem. This time from our good friend Iakus. He asserts that the developers be required to watch this because his opinion of the story is negative. Please people could you just keep your opinions out of things and not automatically assume your side is right when someone agrees with you.

Yep, i wrote that.  Meant every word of it too.  Maybe I should just put "In My Opinion" in front of everything I write, just to make sure there's no misunderstandings...

Anyyway. in my opinion, I also wrote:

Hey I admt the RLM  thing didn't do it for me, and there is some nitpicking.  I believe he even admits some of it is nitpicking.  But a lot of what he says makes sense.  These videos really express the problems that I have with the game.  Well, about 90% of the problems anyway.  Plus Smudboy talks about what's good about the characters as well as the bad.  It wasn't all criticizing the game. 

In my opinion, I did not say the videos should be required viewing because they were negative, I specifically noted  that Smudboy praised certain elements of the characters as well as criticised what he saw as problems with them.

It's ironic how this seems to be a "decision and consequences" thing you don't see often in Mass Effect.  Who'd have thought a post I wrote in support of a character analysis several days ago would have ended up on a completely different thread. Kinda funny actually.

In my opinion.

Modifié par iakus, 17 août 2010 - 01:28 .

[Fhaileas]

bjdbwea wrote...

I don't like this "middle part of a trilogy" excuse. It's a stand-alone game, as BioWare insist themselves. Of course there are overarching elements, but it can't rely so much on the next part for things to make sense. The SW series didn't do that either. As a writer, you need to make sure that you resolve the things that need resolving, and not outsource them into the next game, a comic or a DLC, or even the imagination of the player.

The main story in ME 2 is unfortunately simply badly written. Some ideas were very bad from the beginning, and some are okay, but weren't implemented properly.

I agree, I have said the same plenty of times! 

Taking the SW analogy that a lot of ME2 proponents like to use, if Empire was anything like ME2, then Hoth would never have happened. Instead, the movie starts on Yavin where Chewie, Han and R2D2 would have been delegated to supporting roles. Leia would have travelled the galaxy for 90 minutes recruiting half a dozen new rebels such as a robot seeking its creator, a former starfighter pilot dealing with parenting issues, or other disturbed individuals who make great characters in and of itself but have no apparent value for the rebellion other than pure strength or skill (meaning they are more mercenary than rebel). The movie plot would have revolved around dealing with each of their issues, much too briefly at that and again with little to no visible connection to the rebellion, the empire or anything, before finally turning to the imperial antagonists who have been quietly flying attacks on Yavin in the background. Nothing is said about what the Empire was up to after the death star's destruction, instead the carefully selected and "developed" team destroys a number of star destroyers for ten minutes and the movie ends.

Modifié par Fhaileas, 17 août 2010 - 01:24 .

[Il Divo]

*ninja leap into the room*


C'mon guys...Ebony and Ivory...live together in perfect harmony...

Modifié par Il Divo, 17 août 2010 - 02:07 .

[William Adama]

Hmmm. But the fact that Bioware has no intention on altering the mechanics in the 3rd has me a little worried. Yes I absolutely love the shooter mechanics during gun battles. I am playing ME1 on insanity right now and it takes 10 minutes of full auto fire from a AR to kill a Krogan Warlord... that's very tedious. BUT I am still in love with the idea that I can mod my characters modifiers to my liking, even though most people end up with Spectre X weapons and Colossus or Predator M,L armor. Like I said before, all they needed to do was scrap the pletheura of items down to 2 gun models (which they did) and incorporate weapon modding. Same with armor. I don't care about the appearance of the upgrades, just the stats it gives us.



Universal cooldown, has to GO.



Get rid of the Hammerhead forever.



Bring back in game loading screens ie elevators and decon room. I want to be immersed!



Biotics sucked in ME2, fix it for ME3.



Make ammo types universal for all classes.



Bring back vast planet exploration! I miss the eerie winds of low pressure planets and the large moons that hovered in the sky just passed the planet rings. Dont jam me into a corrider every friggn level!



Hybrid thermal clips blah blah blah. All this crap has been said a million times before!



The reason Im still spewing this crap is because I MUST play ME3 to finish the story. And I want the experience to be as pleasant as it can be! Little things like elevator rides are noticable things to me!

[Saremei]

Il Divo wrote...


*ninja leap into the room*


C'mon guys...Ebony and Ivory...live together in perfect harmony...

Doesn't work, ya know?

[Il Divo]

No, I suppose it doesn't.

[CatatonicMan]

Il Divo wrote...

No, I suppose it doesn't.

If at first you don't succeed, try try again. Then quit. No sense in being a damn fool about it.

[Epic777]

While I prefer me2 to me1, I liked both games. I especially the combat in me2 which traditionally are the worst parts of RPG hybrids. I also like RPGs but I I rather in me3 the rpg mechanics what ever they are, compliment the combat system especially since classic rpg mechanics don't always translate well in rpg hybrids.

[bjdbwea]

Lumikki wrote...

In the end it's game developers who deside what kind of game they want to do.

Unfortunately, it isn't anymore. It's the decision of the publisher, respectively the developer's own superiors. The actual developers, the people who write, design, program and create a game do what they're told to. They used to have more artistic freedom back in the days, but nowadays they have to work under strict dictates.

And if they're told to "streamline" a game, and if that means throwing away much of what made the game great, they do it. Whatever they may think about it personally. What can you do?

I for one think the original vision of BioWare was very much different from what we got in ME 2.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 17 août 2010 - 11:12 .

[tonnactus]

William Adama wrote...

Hmmm. But the fact that Bioware has no intention on altering the mechanics in the 3rd has me a little worried. Yes I absolutely love the shooter mechanics during gun battles. I am playing ME1 on insanity right now and it takes 10 minutes of full auto fire from a AR to kill a Krogan Warlord...

Warp solves this problem....(together with poison ammo to prevent the rebirth)

Modifié par tonnactus, 17 août 2010 - 12:42 .

[tonnactus]

Lumikki wrote...

The story situation in ME2 is more based how player want to take it. Like above Fixers0 talked how he/she feels like Shepard is kinda "slave" for TIM and afraid. If player thinks that, then it's comming from player, not from game. Meaning, I never feeled that way or I nerver thinked that I was forced to join anything.

Really not? First time i played the game,at a point kelly told me:"The illusive man wants to talk with you".

I: "The nicotin junkie could wait".

Shepardt went to the galaxy map,want to do a side mission.
Suprise,the galaxy map is deactivated.
Joker: "Plan changed shepardt,the illusive wants to talk with you."

So shepardt talked with the illusive man went like this: Shepardt,you go now to this place.
Shepardt, a former spectre would could stop talking with the council nearly everytime in the first game when he wish to do that is now a cerberus
puppy who just approves.

What the ****?!? What rpgs in the past ever dictacted the missions the player had to in which order and are there really people who liked it to be commanded around in a game like a fool???

Modifié par tonnactus, 17 août 2010 - 12:54 .