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Disappointment With Mass Effect 2? An Open Discussion.


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#8676
Il Divo

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MrnDvlDg161 wrote...

I don' t know about anyone else, but I wanted to back hand her into one of those cargo crates. I have to say, that pissed me off royally and although I didn't pick her as my character's mate, I made damn sure she was maxed out with the best armor, weapons, and maxed stats because she was one of my hole punchers for nasty shoot outs.  What was that all about?  You would think she would have been more understanding but instead she just gave Shepard the finger.


As someone who romanced Ashley during my playthroughs, I can imagine that she must have been going through several complex emotions at the time. To start, she thought you were dead for two years. So next thing you know, she's hearing rumors that you're alive (spread by the Illusive Man) and working with a known terrorist organization which she opposes. The first time she sees you in two years is a result of the Collector attack and she is forced to consider that you have not attempted to make any contact with her at all in that time. 

I could picture her having any number of emotions at the time: anger, despair, regret, etc. Bioware chose to focus on 'anger/betrayal' in her case. It's not the best answer, but neither the worst. Ashley doesn't seem the type to fall apart completely anyway, imo.  

#8677
bjdbwea

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MrnDvlDg161 wrote...

Thoughts?


They needed to sell people on their shiny new LIs. For that, the old ones had to be made look bad and less appealing. <_<

Modifié par bjdbwea, 17 août 2010 - 10:44 .


#8678
MrnDvlDg161

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I can see where she was pissed, in my case, as I did not choose her, it was more of a friendship moment than actual romantic, though it was close that it could have been.



I hope she makes a better appearance in ME3. Or maybe she'll be tasked to take you out! You never know.

#8679
Iakus

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MrnDvlDg161 wrote...

One thing that happened in which I never got in any game I played yet ---

I have to say, when I met Ashley Williams again on that one coloy ( forgot the name) and she blatantly called Shepard a frankenstien monster by many ways then walked off with her speil about Cerberus and the Alliance


That scene.  By itself.  Utterly ruined ME 2 for me.  It represents everything that I find wrong with the game.  Continuity.  Charactarization,  Storyline.  I could hear it all being flushed away during The Rant.  All for a "more immediate experience"  or something.  Every time I even think about playing ME 2 again I just think "Horizon" and I find something else to play.

Also... Liara's transition from the bright eyed scientist who was into the Protheon's past to this number-crunching agent woman with a huge 50 lb weight on her shoulder.  It wasn't until I pried into some of my fellow fan's research that I got the story about the Shadow Broker, his body being sold and Cerberus.


Yeah Liara's personality transplant came out of left field for me too.  That one conversation thread that at least somewhat explains it is hard to find and very easy to get yourself permanently locked out of it.  Leaving many people wondering how she went from "I'm just a reasearcher" to "I can kill you with my brain!"

This leads me to a crucial question.  I am wondering just how loyal  Miranda wil be in ME3.  Perhaps the experince of fighting along side Shepard may have changed her mind but she's still a Cereberus Agent.   Of course you have the choice of picking someone else as your new " mate" --- or maybe just not picking anyone --- but what would have been the fun in that not to mention less Paragon points.

I just think they should have given you better a better sense of what to do by including Liara in ME2. Now your left to guess -- and anyone's guess is good at this point.[

Thoughts?


I'm not gonna speculate on what will be in ME 3.  ME 2 already demonstrates that the past really doesn't matter.  Bioware will put in whatever Bioware thinks will sell units, regardless of continuity.

Today is not an optomistic day for me.

#8680
MrnDvlDg161

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Bit a of a noob with these acronyms. What is a L I

#8681
Mike2640

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MrnDvlDg161 wrote...

Bit a of a noob with these acronyms. What is a L I


Love Interest

#8682
MrnDvlDg161

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I found that ME1 sort of forced you towards Liara in many ways, so I had hoped she was going to be a continuous part in ME2.



Still. There was no reason for Ashley's behavior.



If I took it on the fact that she was pissed/angry/confused. Well good then --- that's what Paragon points and charm points are for! Why not have it so that you meet her again with Councilor Anderson at the Citadel later to explain things? That would have been a cool part. You did save her bacon at Horizon.




#8683
bjdbwea

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LI = Love Interest, the romanceable characters.

The ones from ME 1 had a lot of fans, but they were tossed aside like a rag doll.

It was promised they would just be "saved" to play an important role in ME 3, but that only explains - somewhat - why they were reduced to a short role. It doesn't explain nor excuse the terrible writing of the scenes themselves. And whether that promise will be kept, remains also to be seen.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 17 août 2010 - 11:08 .


#8684
Iakus

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Il Divo wrote...

MrnDvlDg161 wrote...

I don' t know about anyone else, but I wanted to back hand her into one of those cargo crates. I have to say, that pissed me off royally and although I didn't pick her as my character's mate, I made damn sure she was maxed out with the best armor, weapons, and maxed stats because she was one of my hole punchers for nasty shoot outs.  What was that all about?  You would think she would have been more understanding but instead she just gave Shepard the finger.


As someone who romanced Ashley during my playthroughs, I can imagine that she must have been going through several complex emotions at the time. To start, she thought you were dead for two years. So next thing you know, she's hearing rumors that you're alive (spread by the Illusive Man) and working with a known terrorist organization which she opposes. The first time she sees you in two years is a result of the Collector attack and she is forced to consider that you have not attempted to make any contact with her at all in that time. 

I could picture her having any number of emotions at the time: anger, despair, regret, etc. Bioware chose to focus on 'anger/betrayal' in her case. It's not the best answer, but neither the worst. Ashley doesn't seem the type to fall apart completely anyway, imo.  


Unfortunately, Kaiden's responses are virtually identical.

These are two marines who have been with Shepard since Eden Prime, were with you every step of the way, who's lives you saved more than once, and who saw you do the impossible:  foil the Reapers.  Heck the Virmire Survivor helps you commit mutiny to go against both the Citadel and the Alliance to stop Saren! 

Now you're miraculously back from the dead, saving another colony, including Ashley/Kaiden, and it doesn't occur to them to say "What's going on?"  "How are you still alive?" or even "  Since when did Cerberus allow turians/salarians/krogan into their ranks?" Honestly, I'd have though Shep fighting alongside Cerberus would be at best fourth on the list of questions running through the Survivor's head (behind "What were those things that attacked us?" "I saw the Normandy destroyed, how can Shepard be alive?" and "Why isn't that bald tattooed chick wearing a shirt?")

Honestly, If Garrus and Tali trust Shepard enough to actually join up with Cerberus, you could at least expect Kaiden/Ashley to give ten minutes to sit down and listen.  Heck bring Joker and Chakwas down to the surface too.  Have a Normandy reunion!

#8685
tonnactus

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MrnDvlDg161 wrote...


I don' t know about anyone else, but I wanted to back hand her into one of those cargo crates. I have to say, that pissed me off royally and although I didn't pick her as my character's mate, I made damn sure she was maxed out with the best armor, weapons, and maxed stats because she was one of my hole punchers for nasty shoot outs.  What was that all about?  You would think she would have been more understanding but instead she just gave Shepard the finger.



Thats just incredible dumb like the whole story of Mass Effect 2 and is just one example. Cerberus killed off a lot of quarians when they wanted to get gillian
back and tali still trusts shepard but kaidan alenko/ashley williams didnt. Yes this make sense.Like even a military grunt like ashley williams knew what the geth are(because the aliance taught them about it) and now the citadel security didnt know who attacked them in the past.

Modifié par tonnactus, 17 août 2010 - 11:16 .


#8686
Mike2640

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They didn't even need to make them pissed at you for them to not be go with you. A simple "I'm sorry Shepard, but I cant abandon my current commitments to the Alliance." bjdbwea nailed it. They felt they needed to make the new guys look better by bringing down the old guys (Which really says a lot about the faith they had in their writing of the characters).

#8687
MrnDvlDg161

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That also gave me a problem. The Cerebus connection. You would think with how the Illusive Man was that cliche, smokey/dark room --- one world government type that he would have programmed a biological kill switch in Shepard in case he went rouge. Wouldn't you if you went out of your way to bring back Shepard with your own resources and money?






#8688
MrnDvlDg161

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And to that other poster --- I agree, I would trade the combat engine of ME1 than ME2. The overheating mechanisms of the weapons were better.



I also was disappointed with the so called " Heavy Guns". They were un-reliable and took too long to charge up a fire before you were shot up and dead. Untrustworthy weapons. Did anyone notice that your pistol was far more lethal than your rifle? Or maybe that's just me. Only decent heavy weapon was the missile launcher and the Collector beam.




#8689
Fanbus

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MShep not being able to have Miranda as an LI in ME3 will be a deal breaker for me buying it, regardless of what spoiler sites tell me. Actually if it wasn't for her I wouldn't have finished ME2 at all. By the time I did the final missions I was already fed up with the combat system, I loathed the story, and I was already distraught that Jack was probably going to die.

Personally for me, this is one of those games that's good. Just that it has a lot of stuff that purposely wants to frustrate me. Kind of like a tabletop roleplaying game. You really like the characters you really like the other players, you really like the game, but the GM is a dick and constantly does things to frustrate you.

Anyways, Bioware shot themselves in the foot by doing this "You might die and the crew might die" BS. Yeah yeah I know a bunch of you love that and think it's innovative. But I feel it only makes things worse in the end.
-You run the risk of having continuity problems (dead characters can't return?)
-You run the risk of frustrating fans. Similar to killing of major characters in a major IP like Star Wars or Star Trek.
-You end up screwing yourself over because now you don't know whether to invest in voice talent for the sequals or not. In the end you -have- to not have killable characters return because you'll run into budget problems. In other words, if the crew of ME2 has the chance of all being killed, in ME3 it would be cost prohibitive to include dialogue for those crew members (other than a few lines) if they won't return in the sequal. Someone here put it a lot more eloquently than that.

In the end; I expect ME3 will not have any of the cast of ME2. If it does it will more than likely be a simple "Hello".

Modifié par Fanbus, 17 août 2010 - 11:35 .


#8690
MrnDvlDg161

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Now what they did do that I liked was kept some of the NPC members like Joker and Doc C. That was a good thing. The cook was meh..so what. Then there is that bit with Kelly Chambers. Anyone even attempt to get her quasi-romance story branch? Its not that great. More like a gimmick.




#8691
Fanbus

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The Kelly thing was another carrot on a stick, just like the rest of the romances in ME2.

#8692
MrnDvlDg161

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Fanbus wrote...

MShep not being able to have Miranda as an LI in ME3 will be a deal breaker for me buying it, regardless of what spoiler sites tell me. Actually if it wasn't for her I wouldn't have finished ME2 at all. By the time I did the final missions I was already fed up with the combat system, I loathed the story, and I was already distraught that Jack was probably going to die.

Personally for me, this is one of those games that's good. Just that it has a lot of stuff that purposely wants to frustrate me. Kind of like a tabletop roleplaying game. You really like the characters you really like the other players, you really like the game, but the GM is a dick and constantly does things to frustrate you.


Hah hah hah hah hah --- you brought back memories of the old  D n D days.

I wonder how many people even play table top RPG's anymore. 

Any event --- it is true.  I have some bad feelings about the whole Cerebus/ Illusive Man being pissed at Shepard with going Rouge and how that will change either Miranda or Jacob. Jacob not so much... but if you remember from the dialouges, many people keep warning you about Miranda... even the Salarain if you remember! 

Aaand yes... ME2 was a great game to play, a big plus was the fact that the world continues on after the game and you can actully hold more conservations with your crew after the end. Thats something I haven't seen done with these games in a while.

Sorry for being repetitive but... that Williams interchange was a bitter dagger. I think if I was Shepard I'd still be pissed, even after blowin gup the collector ship.  They would be like ---   " Comander, you saved the galaxy again --- what are you going to do now?" 

" ....  use a good blast of throw to check Williams into a bulkhead..." 

#8693
MrnDvlDg161

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Fanbus wrote...

MShep not being able to have Miranda as an LI in ME3 will be a deal breaker for me buying it, regardless of what spoiler sites tell me. Actually if it wasn't for her I wouldn't have finished ME2 at all. By the time I did the final missions I was already fed up with the combat system, I loathed the story, and I was already distraught that Jack was probably going to die.

Personally for me, this is one of those games that's good. Just that it has a lot of stuff that purposely wants to frustrate me. Kind of like a tabletop roleplaying game. You really like the characters you really like the other players, you really like the game, but the GM is a dick and constantly does things to frustrate you.

Anyways, Bioware shot themselves in the foot by doing this "You might die and the crew might die" BS. Yeah yeah I know a bunch of you love that and think it's innovative. But I feel it only makes things worse in the end.
-You run the risk of having continuity problems (dead characters can't return?)
-You run the risk of frustrating fans. Similar to killing of major characters in a major IP like Star Wars or Star Trek.
-You end up screwing yourself over because now you don't know whether to invest in voice talent for the sequals or not. In the end you -have- to not have killable characters return because you'll run into budget problems. In other words, if the crew of ME2 has the chance of all being killed, in ME3 it would be cost prohibitive to include dialogue for those crew members (other than a few lines) if they won't return in the sequal. Someone here put it a lot more eloquently than that.

In the end; I expect ME3 will not have any of the cast of ME2. If it does it will more than likely be a simple "Hello".



In other words, consistancy.  Starting a story branch from scratch for a dozen reasons or so that weren't made for the contuation of the narrative but rather trying to entice new gammers to buy the next one.  Or adding things for the gimmick effects.

#8694
Iakus

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Mike2640 wrote...

They didn't even need to make them pissed at you for them to not be go with you. A simple "I'm sorry Shepard, but I cant abandon my current commitments to the Alliance." bjdbwea nailed it. They felt they needed to make the new guys look better by bringing down the old guys (Which really says a lot about the faith they had in their writing of the characters).



YES!!! Exactly!

#8695
Alien Alloyd

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Bioware were the last company I would've have thought EA would've been able to have any control over, but ME2 has proved that no matter what, EA will succeed in turning everything into American Football.

#8696
Fhaileas

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Il Divo wrote...

As someone who romanced Ashley during my playthroughs, I can imagine that she must have been going through several complex emotions at the time. To start, she thought you were dead for two years. So next thing you know, she's hearing rumors that you're alive (spread by the Illusive Man) and working with a known terrorist organization which she opposes. The first time she sees you in two years is a result of the Collector attack and she is forced to consider that you have not attempted to make any contact with her at all in that time. 

I could picture her having any number of emotions at the time: anger, despair, regret, etc. Bioware chose to focus on 'anger/betrayal' in her case. It's not the best answer, but neither the worst. Ashley doesn't seem the type to fall apart completely anyway, imo.  


Though to an extent I agree with hypothetical contextualizing in order to rationalize the reactions of one's LI, however the failure of that dynamic lies in one of the central tenets of all successful relationships - empathy. Prior to the meeting all my Shephard could think of was Kaiden, almost pining for him, thinking that at least her stalwart companion, her best friend and her lover would be there for her, one of the very few people she had ever let her guard down against -- a bright ray of hope in the midst of this permeating darkness in her life. My Shephard would not have cared had he moved on and was seeing other people, she's intelligent enough to realize that her "death" and the intervening years will have changed the context of his life; however though physical situations might change, intimate emotional bonds are not severed quite so easily, especially in just 2 years.

In this regard Kaiden's reaction was throughly shallow and selfish, his lack of regard for what she had been through and how she had survived, his vituperation and denouncement of her as a lackey of Cerberus without even a thought for how this could possibly have come to pass, knowing full well the tribulations (sole survivor) Shephard had faced at the hands of Cerberus and how she had so passionately campaigned to bring them down for their heinous actions; knowing also the love, regard and respect she had for her crew and the numerous sacrifices she had made for them, for the galaxy at the cost of her own life. Could not Kaiden, her lieutenant (let alone her friend and lover) even attempt to rationalize things from her perspective being so intimately aware of the core beliefs, principles and passions that drive Shephard? Was the touted relationship that hollow and Shephard's love and regard for Kaiden "that" nonreciprocating?

And the email did not seem so much as a clumsy attempt to make amends but more an overture of a guilty conscience. She's embarking on a "suicide" mission to battle the collectors - he knows this - would that really warrant such a casual response, taking for granted her chances of survival and the opportunity of a "segued" relationship. 

All this and the multitude of other interactions that occur through out the game made me feel so detached from my character and I can't help thinking (from a role-play) perspective that it all felt surreal to Shephard too. And let's face it, the root of this "detachment" and "disillusionment" lies in the forced narrative that compels Shephard to act as she does in ME2. It just reeks of bad writing without having paid heed to the character development and narrative of the first game. From the story itself to the actions and re-actions of your comrades and NPCs from the original game, it almost seems that none of your pivotal actions had any "meaningful" impact and your role as a friend, lover, hero and savior of the galaxy was merely superficial.

Modifié par Fhaileas, 18 août 2010 - 12:18 .


#8697
Fhaileas

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dp error

Modifié par Fhaileas, 18 août 2010 - 12:17 .


#8698
Xeranx

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Alien Alloyd wrote...

Bioware were the last company I would've have thought EA would've been able to have any control over, but ME2 has proved that no matter what, EA will succeed in turning everything into American Football.


:pinched:

#8699
MrnDvlDg161

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Fhaileas wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

As someone who romanced Ashley during my playthroughs, I can imagine that she must have been going through several complex emotions at the time. To start, she thought you were dead for two years. So next thing you know, she's hearing rumors that you're alive (spread by the Illusive Man) and working with a known terrorist organization which she opposes. The first time she sees you in two years is a result of the Collector attack and she is forced to consider that you have not attempted to make any contact with her at all in that time. 

I could picture her having any number of emotions at the time: anger, despair, regret, etc. Bioware chose to focus on 'anger/betrayal' in her case. It's not the best answer, but neither the worst. Ashley doesn't seem the type to fall apart completely anyway, imo.  


Though to an extent I agree with hypothetical contextualizing in order to rationalize the reactions of one's LI, however the failure of that dynamic lies in one of the central tenets of all successful relationships - empathy. Prior to the meeting all my Shephard could think of was Kaiden, almost pining for him, thinking that at least her stalwart companion, her best friend and her lover would be there for her, one of the very few people she had ever let her guard down against -- a bright ray of hope in the midst of this permeating darkness in her life. My Shephard would not have cared had he moved on and was seeing other people, she's intelligent enough to realize that her "death" and the intervening years will have changed the context of his life; however though physical situations might change, intimate emotional bonds are not severed quite so easily, especially in just 2 years.

In this regard Kaiden's reaction was throughly shallow and selfish, his lack of regard for what she had been through and how she had survived, his vituperation and denouncement of her as a lackey of Cerberus without even a thought for how this could possibly have come to pass, knowing full well the tribulations (sole survivor) Shephard had faced at the hands of Cerberus and how she had so passionately campaigned to bring them down for their heinous actions; knowing also the love, regard and respect she had for her crew and the numerous sacrifices she had made for them, for the galaxy at the cost of her own life. Could not Kaiden, her lieutenant (let alone her friend and lover) even attempt to rationalize things from her perspective being so intimately aware of the core beliefs, principles and passions that drive Shephard? Was the touted relationship that hollow and Shephard's love and regard for Kaiden "that" nonreciprocating?

And the email did not seem so much as a clumsy attempt to make amends but more an overture of a guilty conscience. She's embarking on a "suicide" mission to battle the collectors - he knows this - would that really warrant such a casual response, taking for granted her chances of survival and the opportunity of a "segued" relationship. 

All this and the multitude of other interactions that occur through out the game made me feel so detached from my character and I can't help thinking (from a role-play) perspective that it all felt surreal to Shephard too. And let's face it, the root of this "detachment" and "disillusionment" lies in the forced narrative that compels Shephard to act as she does in ME2. It just reeks of bad writing without having paid heed to the character development and narrative of the first game. From the story itself to the actions and re-actions of your comrades and NPCs from the original game, it almost seems that none of your pivotal actions had any "meaningful" impact and your role as a friend, lover, hero and savior of the galaxy was merely superficial.


First I would like to say...  a tip of the hat to your pen.  You write well.

Maybe I missed it but did you say e-mail?  Ashley didn't even bother to write after that interlude lest I missed something. Then again that would have probably angered the way I would have played Shepard even more and would most likely use  Throw 2x to whack her across the Normandy's bulk head.

#8700
MrnDvlDg161

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See what made it a double smack in the face for me...



I said ok. So Ashley thinks I'm some monster-for-hire with Cerberus right? I'll just gulp that severe hit to the kidney and get my feelings back into place by re-uniting with Liara ( my Li choice in ME1) and things will be smoothed over with some support ( just like when Shepard was de-commission by Udina and she came to him to boost his spirit).



WAM.



She's some cold hearted operative of the Shadow Broker, doesn't have too much time for you, sold you to the very company everyone hates ( but out of love), and is speaking like her Matriarch mom.



Was bitter after that, made me want to choose all the Renegade options and swing with Jack for the rest of the time being if not for my RPG experience needs to keep it in line with a healthy end.