10273 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

MrnDvlDg161 wrote...


Maybe I missed it but did you say e-mail?  Ashley didn't even bother to write after that interlude lest I missed something. Then again that would have probably angered the way I would have played Shepard even more and would most likely use  Throw 2x to whack her across the Normandy's bulk head.

If Ashely or Kaiden was your LI in the first game (and only if they were the LI) then you get an apology email after Horizon.

[Whatever42]

Ashley does email after the big rejection. I actually understand Ashley overreacting - she is very opinionated, even if you can win her around eventually. I think the rejection is more out of character for Kaiden; he's Mr. Reasonable, Mr. Look at it from their point of view.

[Iakus]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Ashley does email after the big rejection. I actually understand Ashley overreacting - she is very opinionated, even if you can win her around eventually. I think the rejection is more out of character for Kaiden; he's Mr. Reasonable, Mr. Look at it from their point of view.

Commander Shepard:  Hero of the Citadel, first human Spectre, beater of Soveregin, etc, etc, the "hero, a bloody icon" whom even unrepentant killers and mercenaries will follow into a suicide mission, can't get a former squadmate to sit down for ten minutes while you explain the latest Threat to Humanity you have to defeat???

This is someone who knows what the big picture is.  Who has seen what Shepard's seen.  This person saw Sovereign on Eden Prime, faced down an army of geth with you, who knows the truth about the Reapers.  Who saw Sovereign attack the Citadel (either in your squad or from the Normandy)   And in the end, practically watched you die.  Now, miraculously, you're back, yet all they can see is Cerberus. 

They're not in the least bit curious how or why Shepard is alive? 

They're not intersted in what could possibly convince Shepard to team up with Cerberus?

They've suddenly lost interest in the Reaper threat?

They think Cerberus has suddenly expanded it's recruiting to include turians, etc? ("Garrus?  You too?")

They're not even interested in the aliens that Shepard rescued the colony from?

This is right up there with the Council's willful ignorance.  Basically, the Virmire surviver rejects Shepard because Bioware says they reject Shepard, and there's nothing we can do about it.

[MrnDvlDg161]

iakus wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Ashley does email after the big rejection. I actually understand Ashley overreacting - she is very opinionated, even if you can win her around eventually. I think the rejection is more out of character for Kaiden; he's Mr. Reasonable, Mr. Look at it from their point of view.

Commander Shepard:  Hero of the Citadel, first human Spectre, beater of Soveregin, etc, etc, the "hero, a bloody icon" whom even unrepentant killers and mercenaries will follow into a suicide mission, can't get a former squadmate to sit down for ten minutes while you explain the latest Threat to Humanity you have to defeat???

This is someone who knows what the big picture is.  Who has seen what Shepard's seen.  This person saw Sovereign on Eden Prime, faced down an army of geth with you, who knows the truth about the Reapers.  Who saw Sovereign attack the Citadel (either in your squad or from the Normandy)   And in the end, practically watched you die.  Now, miraculously, you're back, yet all they can see is Cerberus. 

They're not in the least bit curious how or why Shepard is alive? 

They're not intersted in what could possibly convince Shepard to team up with Cerberus?

They've suddenly lost interest in the Reaper threat?

They think Cerberus has suddenly expanded it's recruiting to include turians, etc? ("Garrus?  You too?")

They're not even interested in the aliens that Shepard rescued the colony from?

This is right up there with the Council's willful ignorance.  Basically, the Virmire surviver rejects Shepard because Bioware says they reject Shepard, and there's nothing we can do about it.

Same page as you brother. All good questions without any answers.  Now  I AM glad I didn't get the e-mail because Ashley wasn't my pick.  She still would have gotten  Throw, but maybe not 2x --- just one good burst. I'll even compromise by skipping the bulk head and maybe just a good shove against  the Doc's fiberglass window.

[MrnDvlDg161]

They also whittled Anderson into an empty husk of nothing.



I felt I wanted to leave one of my pistols in his possession in case he wanted to use it on himself. It was quite pathetic to see him in such shape.

[Whatever42]

iakus wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Ashley does email after the big rejection. I actually understand Ashley overreacting - she is very opinionated, even if you can win her around eventually. I think the rejection is more out of character for Kaiden; he's Mr. Reasonable, Mr. Look at it from their point of view.

Commander Shepard:  Hero of the Citadel, first human Spectre, beater of Soveregin, etc, etc, the "hero, a bloody icon" whom even unrepentant killers and mercenaries will follow into a suicide mission, can't get a former squadmate to sit down for ten minutes while you explain the latest Threat to Humanity you have to defeat???

This is someone who knows what the big picture is.  Who has seen what Shepard's seen.  This person saw Sovereign on Eden Prime, faced down an army of geth with you, who knows the truth about the Reapers.  Who saw Sovereign attack the Citadel (either in your squad or from the Normandy)   And in the end, practically watched you die.  Now, miraculously, you're back, yet all they can see is Cerberus. 

They're not in the least bit curious how or why Shepard is alive? 

They're not intersted in what could possibly convince Shepard to team up with Cerberus?

They've suddenly lost interest in the Reaper threat?

They think Cerberus has suddenly expanded it's recruiting to include turians, etc? ("Garrus?  You too?")

They're not even interested in the aliens that Shepard rescued the colony from?

This is right up there with the Council's willful ignorance.  Basically, the Virmire surviver rejects Shepard because Bioware says they reject Shepard, and there's nothing we can do about it.

Remember, TIM has been spreading rumours about you. She also saw first hand everything Cerberus did in ME1, the experiments they conducted, the murdered marines on two different planets, the murder of Admiral Kohuku.  She also may have been briefed on much of the other nefarious dealings of Cerberus. 

And here is Shepard, dead and mourned, suddenly back alive again. She's never heard your side of it, she doesn't know why you are there, and she is not Ms. Reasonable in the best of times. I have seen many in an emotional state refuse to listen, storm off. And then after she calms down, she sends you an apologetic email and wishes you luck.

Frankly, I see plenty of room for distrust and caution there. You're assuming she knows everything Shepard knows or is prepared to absorb it all in an instant, while in a very emotional state. I really don't think what happened is that far fetched, for Ashley anyway. As I said, Kaiden is Mr. Calm and Reasonable, I would expect more inquistiveness from him.

[Halo Quea]

MrnDvlDg161 wrote...

They also whittled Anderson into an empty husk of nothing.

I felt I wanted to leave one of my pistols in his possession in case he wanted to use it on himself. It was quite pathetic to see him in such shape.

Maybe we should have just  pushed him off that balcony.  Anything would have been better than him hanging around the Presidium doing nothing.

[MrnDvlDg161]

Halo Quea wrote...

MrnDvlDg161 wrote...

They also whittled Anderson into an empty husk of nothing.

I felt I wanted to leave one of my pistols in his possession in case he wanted to use it on himself. It was quite pathetic to see him in such shape.

Maybe we should have just  pushed him off that balcony.  Anything would have been better than him hanging around the Presidium doing nothing.

Well... he wasn't exactly doing NOTHING...he probably made Udina some coffee every now and again... went to that club to try a hand at gambling or watch an assari dance a few rounds.... 

But I like that idea --- it should have been a Renegade trigger you could pull.  Call it a  " Pitty Kill" .  One good smack right off the balcony and just for some contraversy, he would be impaled on the sharpest point of the Krogan statue.

[Mike2640]

iakus wrote...

Commander Shepard:  Hero of the Citadel, first human Spectre, beater of Soveregin, etc, etc, the "hero, a bloody icon" whom even unrepentant killers and mercenaries will follow into a suicide mission, can't get a former squadmate to sit down for ten minutes while you explain the latest Threat to Humanity you have to defeat???

This is someone who knows what the big picture is.  Who has seen what Shepard's seen.  This person saw Sovereign on Eden Prime, faced down an army of geth with you, who knows the truth about the Reapers.  Who saw Sovereign attack the Citadel (either in your squad or from the Normandy)   And in the end, practically watched you die.  Now, miraculously, you're back, yet all they can see is Cerberus. 

They're not in the least bit curious how or why Shepard is alive? 

They're not intersted in what could possibly convince Shepard to team up with Cerberus?

They've suddenly lost interest in the Reaper threat?

They think Cerberus has suddenly expanded it's recruiting to include turians, etc? ("Garrus?  You too?")

They're not even interested in the aliens that Shepard rescued the colony from?

This is right up there with the Council's willful ignorance.  Basically, the Virmire surviver rejects Shepard because Bioware says they reject Shepard, and there's nothing we can do about it.

Bioware: "SHHHHHH!!! Look at Miranda's ass! Isn't it big and awesome?"

I can understand it when Ashley storms off (Even if it does take a bit of rationalizing on my end), but what's worse is you couldn't even go after her. It's not like she went to some secret part of the Galaxy. Someone with Shepards resources could do it.

Modifié par Mike2640, 18 août 2010 - 03:45 .

[Iakus]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Remember, TIM has been spreading rumours about you. She also saw first hand everything Cerberus did in ME1, the experiments they conducted, the murdered marines on two different planets, the murder of Admiral Kohuku.  She also may have been briefed on much of the other nefarious dealings of Cerberus. 

Yes, Shepard was leading the charge against them (or if Shep wasn't then they were unlikely to have seen mich of Cerberus' activities to begin with).  Like I said, Ashley (and Kaiden) saw what Shepard saw.  Yet neither would be in the least bit curious what could convince Shepard to fight alongside them?

And here is Shepard, dead and mourned, suddenly back alive again. She's never heard your side of it, she doesn't know why you are there, and she is not Ms. Reasonable in the best of times. I have seen many in an emotional state refuse to listen, storm off. And then after she calms down, she sends you an apologetic email and wishes you luck.

Ashley's opinionated, but no more so than, say Garrus.  I still find it hard to believe she couldn't simply say "Why are you working for Cerberus" and Shep answering "We think the Reapers are on the move again, this time using the Collectors as pawns"  I mean, unless you were a complete renegade jerk to her, I think you'd have built up enough trust (remember "Savior of the Citadel", saved her rear on Eden Prime and Virmire, someone she trusted) and that's leaving aside the whole potential LI thing. 

With Kaiden it gets even more bizzare, because his character is much more thoughtful and levelheaded.  Yet their dialogue is virtually identical.

That's what's missing from the scene.  Whoever is there, it's supposed to be someone who had a great deal of trust in Shepard. Someone who followed crazy, even illegal orders from Shep in the past.  Someone who followed Shep to battrle against a threat to the galaxy when no one else trusted or believed the threat even existed.  And came out the other side.   Now in this one scene, where Shep once again comes to humanity's aid, this time the former squaddie calls Shep a traitor when it should be something like "The galaxy's in danger.  Must be Tuesday"

Frankly, I see plenty of room for distrust and caution there. You're assuming she knows everything Shepard knows or is prepared to absorb it all in an instant, while in a very emotional state. I really don't think what happened is that far fetched, for Ashley anyway. As I said, Kaiden is Mr. Calm and Reasonable, I would expect more inquistiveness from him.

Caution yes.  This is Cerberus after all.  Even disapproval I could get (Ashley disapproves -5.  Kaiden disapproves -7).   But distrust?  Unless Cerberus is spreading rumors along the lines of "Shepard's eating kittens to preserve his undead state" (And I'm reasonably sure Anderson would have mentioned something like that, if not Ashley herself) she would have retained enough sense that this is Shepard, who would never ally with Cerberus without a really good reason. 

Modifié par iakus, 18 août 2010 - 04:22 .

[Whatever42]

Garrus is a renegade. He wouldn't care if Shepard was eating kittens as long as he got to shoot the bad guy in the head. Ashley is an idealist and fiercely loyal to the alliance, of which Cerberus is an avowed enemy. And she has clearly heard rumors, undoubtedly spread by TIM to separate Shepard from the Alliance.



So during an emotional first encounter with her lost love, where she is probably in denial about his new new "allegiance", he openly admits he's in bed with the devil.



I don't know about you, but my girlfriend has freaked out about a lot less **** than that and really wasn't ready to talk about it for a while. And when you build trust with someone and perceive that trust to be betrayed, the reaction is harsh to say the least. And its not like she didn't calm down afterwards.



Now, I can understand that you wouldn't react that way. I certainly wouldn't react that way. But I think it would be in character for Ashley.

[MrnDvlDg161]

I'm coming from the Marine perspective my self. I know if I met a fellow Marine after serving with him/her for x number of years and we went through some nasty battle like the Reaper episode, I would have given more stock in his/her word than the orders of politicians.



Just doesn't cut it. Sure she is a woman but then I have to account her training and discipline added on to the shared experience and it still didn't warrant that type of result. The e-mail thing is worse!



Ahhh well. Different prescriptive. This is the reason why the game is good as it is otherwise it wouldn't be worth discussing to begin with.



Me? I'm still waiting for a chance to use a biotic power to fling her against the fiberglass window of the Doc's office.

[ADLegend21]

iakus wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Ashley does email after the big rejection. I actually understand Ashley overreacting - she is very opinionated, even if you can win her around eventually. I think the rejection is more out of character for Kaiden; he's Mr. Reasonable, Mr. Look at it from their point of view.

Commander Shepard:  Hero of the Citadel, first human Spectre, beater of Soveregin, etc, etc, the "hero, a bloody icon" whom even unrepentant killers and mercenaries will follow into a suicide mission, can't get a former squadmate to sit down for ten minutes while you explain the latest Threat to Humanity you have to defeat???

This is someone who knows what the big picture is.  Who has seen what Shepard's seen.  This person saw Sovereign on Eden Prime, faced down an army of geth with you, who knows the truth about the Reapers.  Who saw Sovereign attack the Citadel (either in your squad or from the Normandy)   And in the end, practically watched you die.  Now, miraculously, you're back, yet all they can see is Cerberus. 

They're not in the least bit curious how or why Shepard is alive? 

They're not intersted in what could possibly convince Shepard to team up with Cerberus?

They've suddenly lost interest in the Reaper threat?

They think Cerberus has suddenly expanded it's recruiting to include turians, etc? ("Garrus?  You too?")

They're not even interested in the aliens that Shepard rescued the colony from?

This is right up there with the Council's willful ignorance.  Basically, the Virmire surviver rejects Shepard because Bioware says they reject Shepard, and there's nothing we can do about it.

if you talk to anderson after the meeting he says She couldn't find anyhting that linked them with the reapers. She's doing something, but it's jsut her (or Kaidans) word with no proof.

[Whatever42]

MrnDvlDg161 wrote...

I'm coming from the Marine perspective my self. I know if I met a fellow Marine after serving with him/her for x number of years and we went through some nasty battle like the Reaper episode, I would have given more stock in his/her word than the orders of politicians.

Just doesn't cut it. Sure she is a woman but then I have to account her training and discipline added on to the shared experience and it still didn't warrant that type of result. The e-mail thing is worse!

Ahhh well. Different prescriptive. This is the reason why the game is good as it is otherwise it wouldn't be worth discussing to begin with.

Me? I'm still waiting for a chance to use a biotic power to fling her against the fiberglass window of the Doc's office.

How about a guy you served with 6 months and then saw die and then you found out 2 years later that he was rescued by a brutal enemy and was working for them? But I'm not saying its sensible, just possible that a normal person could react that way.

But as you said, different perspectives.

Plus, we all really know it was just a plot device to keep her/him out of the action in ME2 so they wouldn't die. 

[Tazzmission]

my real beef with mass effect 2 is the crying moaning fans who say this isnt a rpg or its to SHOOTER material.

[MrnDvlDg161]

How about a guy you served with 6 months and then saw die and then you
found out 2 years later that he was rescued by a brutal enemy and was
working for them? But I'm not saying its sensible, just possible that a
normal person could react that way.

But as you said, different perspectives.

Plus, we all really know it was just a plot device to keep her/him out of the action in ME2 so they wouldn't die.

Truthfully --- if I thought he was dead --- I'm still going to hear what he has to say.  What I'm going to do is attempt to find a logical conclusion to it and if I have to inject myself into that universe in which if you don't see a body then you better not make an assumption, I'm going to go take that route to hear em out.

Pissed? sure.

Plot device? Indeed. However a patchwork attempt it was --- it is what it is.  We're really just passengers for the creative ride and the folks who wrote the story are going to where they'll take it to.

The entertainment is to play with the idea in the end eh?

[Terror_K]

It doesn't do much service to either Ashley or Kaidan's characters when the only differences that their survival seems to make is that they substitute for the other and that's it. The same went for Wrex as well. It's hard to see these characters as having any meaning when in the game itself they barely have any meaning and don't effect jack.

[MrnDvlDg161]

I'm interested in something.

Who here chose to save the council members during the Reaper fight? 

My experince was that after the destruction, those who assumed command of the Citadel and C-Sec turned into this very dark and gloomy place filled with crime and high tensions. Darker colors in its hall ways.  A sense of entrapment.  The way you had to go through security to get in with the homeland security style beauracracy greeting you.

Then there was the desk Captain, Bailey. They sort of gave him that shady Irish Cop from the thirties look and mood.   Talking about children getting sucked into the void from playing in the ventalation shafts, the shady interrogation rooms, police abuse and the racial tensions between aliens and humans. I found my self walking around and saying...  Wow... I helped do this?  Didn't even want to come back to the damn place if not for the missions you needed to do.

In ME1 it was clean. Lighted areas.  C-Sec looked like a 5 star hotel instead of a military/police compound. Place was clean --- sort of like a wealthy botanical garden.  Even the Wards weren't menacing to walk into for the exception of the adult pub, in this case ... not so much.

[Halo Quea]

MrnDvlDg161 wrote...

I'm interested in something.

Who here chose to save the council members during the Reaper fight? 

My experince was that after the destruction, those who assumed command of the Citadel and C-Sec turned into this very dark and gloomy place filled with crime and high tensions. Darker colors in its hall ways.  A sense of entrapment.  The way you had to go through security to get in with the homeland security style beauracracy greeting you.

Then there was the desk Captain, Bailey. They sort of gave him that shady Irish Cop from the thirties look and mood.   Talking about children getting sucked into the void from playing in the ventalation shafts, the shady interrogation rooms, police abuse and the racial tensions between aliens and humans. I found my self walking around and saying...  Wow... I helped do this?  Didn't even want to come back to the damn place if not for the missions you needed to do.

In ME1 it was clean. Lighted areas.  C-Sec looked like a 5 star hotel instead of a military/police compound. Place was clean --- sort of like a wealthy botanical garden.  Even the Wards weren't menacing to walk into for the exception of the adult pub, in this case ... not so much.

There's no change to the Citadel if you saved the Council.   Those were design choices that Bioware made, not anything you did.  Bioware did say that they were shooting for a darker, edgier game with ME2.

Even though you have a greater view of the Citadel and it's ward arms, it just feels smaller and less grand in appearance.  Many of the Citadel locations in ME2 look like something you'd find in a shopping mall,  the ME1 Citadel looked vast and awe-inspiring.

[bjdbwea]

I can't understand why some people are even defending the bad writing of the ME 1 LI appearances. I mean, I get it - you didn't care for those characters, and you like the new ones, which is certainly one reason you like the game as a whole and want to defend it. Fine. But is it so hard to imagine what you would think if your favorite characters were reduced to such a badly written scene in ME 3? Would it still be okay? Please, a little bit of objectivity.

Yes, the reasoning of Ashley and Kaidan might be understandable. But for such important characters and such an important scene especially for any Shepard who romances them, there absolutely needs to be more dialogue. Especially from Shepard, as the main problem is actually that we are artificially prevented from talking to our former companions. Instead Shepard just stands there like and lets them walk away. Or sits, in the case of Liara, where it's even worse given the things she had to go through, and Shepard's only reaction is  "my mission's important :mellow:".

Modifié par bjdbwea, 18 août 2010 - 10:33 .

[shootist70]

bjdbwea wrote...

Or sits, in the case of Liara, where it's even worse given the things she had to go through, and Shepard's only reaction is  "my mission's important :mellow:".

Yeah, it really is a case of 'one kiss and we're down to business'...but not in a good way.

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

I wouldnt be surprised that fans of the ME2 LIs would defend the ME1 LI cameos, since they obviously have a liking for bad writing.



I mean jesus I thought the ME1 romances had problems with being formulaic, but the ME2 romances take the ******.



At least the ME1 LIs had more dialogue, a fully done conflict scene and also a great scene directly related to events taking place in the main plot.



ME2 romance go like this:

Dialogue 1: Establish character has hots for Shepard and that romance is bad idea.

Dialogue 2: Reaffirm that romance is a bad idea, but if you really want to, they can do it.

Half-Dialogue 3: Are you sure you want to do this?/(possibly) If you want to do this, get rid of the other competitor.



Then of course its finished up with a brief romance scene with a little bit of dialogue if youre lucky.



Of course, it all makes up for it by the fact that you can invite them up to the cabin for some camera angle action of Shepard and their LI doing pretty much nothing.

[shootist70]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

Of course, it all makes up for it by the fact that you can invite them up to the cabin for some camera angle action of Shepard and their LI doing pretty much nothing.

Yep, usually you have to be married for at least a couple of years before you get to that bit.

Modifié par shootist70, 18 août 2010 - 10:46 .

[Some Geth]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

I wouldnt be surprised that fans of the ME2 LIs would defend the ME1 LI cameos, since they obviously have a liking for bad writing.

I mean jesus I thought the ME1 romances had problems with being formulaic, but the ME2 romances take the ******.

At least the ME1 LIs had more dialogue, a fully done conflict scene and also a great scene directly related to events taking place in the main plot.

ME2 romance go like this:
Dialogue 1: Establish character has hots for Shepard and that romance is bad idea.
Dialogue 2: Reaffirm that romance is a bad idea, but if you really want to, they can do it.
Half-Dialogue 3: Are you sure you want to do this?/(possibly) If you want to do this, get rid of the other competitor.

Then of course its finished up with a brief romance scene with a little bit of dialogue if youre lucky.

Of course, it all makes up for it by the fact that you can invite them up to the cabin for some camera angle action of Shepard and their LI doing pretty much nothing.

So the Mass Effect 2 LIs are a lot like Liara .

[bjdbwea]

shootist70 wrote...

bjdbwea wrote...

Or sits, in the case of Liara, where it's even worse given the things she had to go through, and Shepard's only reaction is  "my mission's important :mellow:".

Yeah, it really is a case of 'one kiss and we're down to business'...but not in a good way.

And the only difference after that is that she gives you an additional 500 credits as a reward for her quest if she's Shepard's LI. No dialogue, nothing. As I said, a bit of objectivity, please - how can anyone who cares about any character defend that?

But I digress. I wouldn't have brought up the topic here, as it probably better remains in other threads.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 18 août 2010 - 10:49 .