10273 réponses à ce sujet

[bjdbwea]

iakus wrote...

Wrex was the only former squaddie I thought was actually well done.

Some speculate this was because Wrex was written by Mac Walters, whereas Ashley, Kaidan and Liara were not his creations. So they got little attention (that much is obvious), or were even sabotaged. I for one do not believe that. First, I have no idea who wrote whom. Second, a professional writer has to be above things like that. But the question remains: Why was Wrex happier to see Shepard again than the person who loved him? Why was Conrad Verner happier? Why did we get a better reunion dialogue with them than with the LIs? Questions, questions. But of course the developers are silent.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 18 août 2010 - 10:06 .

[Halo Quea]

iakus wrote...

Halo Quea wrote...

Oh Gawd!!  As soon as I saw Ash for the first time I wanted to crush her in a bear hug!  But Shepard just acts like he's hugging his sister! lol!

Why couldn't my Shepard grab Ash, give her a kiss that she would have felt in her toes and get her to listen to him for just a few ticks?

Hah, my first playthrough, as soon as I saw the cinematic of seeker swarms on Horizon, I was humming the Mighty Mouse song("Heeeere I come to save the daaaay!") the whole level.  Only to end up with...that...

Meeting Liara:  I ran through the shopping mall that is Illium looking for her.  I wanted to  see how my favorite archaeologist was doing, find out if she made any progress in learning about the Reapers.  Except I ended up meeting,...that...

Wrex was the only former squaddie I thought was actually well done.

It's true, of all the old squaddies, Wrex was the only one who had his act together.

[tonnactus]

David Knight wrote...

Personally, I loved ME1 and 2, but for different reasons.
ME1= Better story, better antagonist (saren), and I felt like part of a world. The elevators and lack of holographic loading screens were something I loved. However, I will agree that the Citadel is boring as hell and not very immersive at all. I felt more like I was in a mall in ME1 Citadel than in ME2 Citadel.

With things like the krogan memorial,the lake,the park and the small mass portal?Really?

For me, the Mako and "uncharted worlds" were the dullest things to ever exist in a video game. You find a thing on a planet, see the same animation for dropping the Mako, drive over to said object, maybe fight a few thugs or monsters, and jet back to the Normandy. Fun? No. Immersive? Um... for some people, apparently. I hated it. Boring= not immersive.

That was my feel with most "recruitment" and loyality missions. Like they took out the most boring sidemissions out of Mass Effect and extend them. 90 percent of the game the player did nothing more the slaughtering mercs with no relation to the story. If even one merc group has contracts with the collectors.but no.

Land ,kill, take the new squad member to the ship.

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

bjdbwea wrote...

Some speculate this was because Wrex was written by Mac Walters, whereas Ashley, Kaidan and Liara were not his creations. So they got little attention (that much is obvious), or were even sabotaged. I for one do not believe that. First, I have no idea who wrote whom. Second, a professional writer has to be above things like that. But the question remains: Why was Wrex happier to see Shepard again than the person who loved him? Why was Conrad Verner happier? Why did we get a better reunion dialogue with them than with the LIs? Questions, questions. But of course the developers are silent.

According to Casey, here is why:

"CaseyH-ME2: Finally, if you are worried about the role of the ME1 love interest in the trilogy, consider that the romance itself is told across the trilogy, in 3 acts. Apply the 3-act concept to what's happening in your relationship with them, and you might guess where we're going with it."

Basically, it was supposed to be the "dark second act of the romance" in ME2.

Now what I want to know is, does that mean a return to squadmate role in ME3? Or does it mean they made the ME2 role so crap, that they think a happy supporting character role will please us in ME3? I hope its the former, because after waiting this long, nothing but being a full on squadmate again will do. No other role simply measures up, its just too restricted.

Of course, its worded in such a way that he could easily be talking about one or the other: a full squadmate role in ME3 again, or a crappy supporting character role that supposed to make everything alright again in just 10 minutes, as opposed to naturally over the course of a game, like it should be done.

Modifié par Dinkamus_Littlelog, 18 août 2010 - 10:33 .

[zazei]

I personally don't think Kaidan and presumely Ashely (never seen her scene) is the problem. It's Shepards reaction and our choices that are horrible. I would have accepted that he stormed off no matter what but I dislike that  there was no choice to even argue about it or try to tell him what happend. It's one of ME2's worse flaws in my opinion. When the game require us to go down one path they didn't even bother to include the illusion of choice or saything anything other then the line to agree and do it.

ME1 had these as well so it's not really something unique for ME2. I especially dislike the council scene in the first game where Shepard is instantly sold on the fact that the Reapers are real even though it would have changed nothing on what path to go if Shepard been able to agree that some silly vision Shepard didn't even understand was not proof the Geth god was accually real. Sadly this sort of thing where I wish for something else to say or argue even though it wouldn't change much happen a lot more in ME2. In ME1 we could agree or argue with the council later or even shut them off, in ME2 the Illusive mans word is law. Or anyone else for the matter if they need to push the plot forwars

Anyway on Kaidan, it wouldn't have changed much if we been given some other options on what to say. He could still been mad and stormed off but if I been able to pick something else then the worst lines I could ever imagined would have made that scene a lot better. Also possibly a lot more heatbreaking, right now it's just annoying to watch Shepard stand there and say Hi and ask how he has been instead of trying to say something about what she was doing there. >_>

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

I was going to write a long critical post about the changes made to Shepard, but I lost the motivation. Ill just say Shepard was "streamlined" into a more typical meat headed shooter hero, who seems to come close to a combat automaton.

[bjdbwea]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

According to Casey, here is why:

"CaseyH-ME2: Finally, if you are worried about the role of the ME1 love interest in the trilogy, consider that the romance itself is told across the trilogy, in 3 acts. Apply the 3-act concept to what's happening in your relationship with them, and you might guess where we're going with it."

Basically, it was supposed to be the "dark second act of the romance" in ME2.

I don't know how much stock can be put into these statements anymore. As far as I know, they are from a "long" time ago. Much has changed since then. To me it is obvious enough that ME 2 is already very different from what was originally intended.

It would be easy for the developers to at least reiterate the statements of old, but so far - nothing. Do they still plan to continue telling the romances in 3 acts? What counts as "telling"? Does the crap in ME 2 have to be considered "telling an act of a romance"? Will the third act be equally terrible then, or do they see the mistakes made?

But regardless, even if the old companions had to be reduced to a short role in ME 2 for overarching reasons, it doesn't excuse the bad writing in them.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 18 août 2010 - 10:56 .

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

bjdbwea wrote...


I don't know how much stock can be put into these statements anymore. As far as I know, they are from a "long" time ago. Much has changed since then. To me it is obvious enough that ME 2 is already very different from what was originally intended.

It would be easy for the developers to at least reiterate the statements of old, but so far - nothing. Do they still plan to continue telling the romances in 3 acts? What counts as "telling"? Does the crap in ME 2 have to be considered "telling an act of a romance"? Will the third act be equally terrible then, or do they see the mistakes made?

But regardless, even if the old companions had to be reduced to a short role in ME 2 for overarching reasons, it doesn't excuse the bad writing in them.

This was said when ME2 was pretty much a finished product development wise, and was on its way out of the door.

Not putting much stock in it is probably a good idea though, not just because video games in general are obviously pretty fluid creative projects to develop, but because Bioware have been developing an interesting talent for BS'ing anyway.

It doesnt matter in the end. Well see eventually if they have been full of crap all this time or not, and Ill see if I can bother to see this "trilogy" out or not because of it.

[zazei]

bjdbwea wrote...

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

According to Casey, here is why:

"CaseyH-ME2: Finally, if you are worried about the role of the ME1 love interest in the trilogy, consider that the romance itself is told across the trilogy, in 3 acts. Apply the 3-act concept to what's happening in your relationship with them, and you might guess where we're going with it."

Basically, it was supposed to be the "dark second act of the romance" in ME2.

I don't know how much stock can be put into these statements anymore. As far as I know, they are from a "long" time ago. Much has changed since then. To me it is obvious enough that ME 2 is already very different from what was originally intended.

It would be easy for the developers to at least reiterate the statements of old, but so far - nothing. Do they still plan to continue telling the romances in 3 acts? What counts as "telling"? Does the crap in ME 2 have to be considered "telling an act of a romance"? Will the third act be equally terrible then, or do they see the mistakes made?

But regardless, even if the old companions had to be reduced to a short role in ME 2 for overarching reasons, it doesn't excuse the bad writing in them.

I pretty much feel the same. I don't expect anything from the LI's in ME3 to be honest before I see it myself. I just never understood why it would make sense to give them a huge role in the third game after they been neglected in the second. Especially since ME2 brougt in new people that never played the first and they want the trilogy to be made up by stand alone peices. I just can't see any huge reward for staying faithful coming our way that would make it worth it. Especially not the way they almost encourage people to try the new LI's and cheat on the old ones. Why would they suddernly matter in the third part when they don't matter in the second? It makes no sense to me.

[Iakus]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

I'm in complete agreement. I was originally taken aback that I couldn't say what I wanted to say. I was specficially defending Ashley's reaction as potentially in-character. Kaiden and Shepard are being totally out of character.

The only way I see Ashely's response as being "in character" would be if Shepard was the worst sort of renegade scum that treated her like dirt the entirety of ME 1

Kaiden...I don't think even that could explain Kaiden's attitude.

Shepard in that scene doesn't even have a charactarization.  Just stands there on hold for a call or something.

[bjdbwea]

zazei wrote...

I pretty much feel the same. I don't expect anything from the LI's in ME3 to be honest before I see it myself. I just never understood why it would make sense to give them a huge role in the third game after they been neglected in the second. Especially since ME2 brougt in new people that never played the first and they want the trilogy to be made up by stand alone peices. I just can't see any huge reward for staying faithful coming our way that would make it worth it. Especially not the way they almost encourage people to try the new LI's and cheat on the old ones. Why would they suddernly matter in the third part when they don't matter in the second? It makes no sense to me.

It would make sense for the second act to be "dark" or "rocky" in a properly written trilogy. I do believe that this was planned once, but what we got is neither dark nor rocky, it isn't at all. So yeah, not holding my breath for the next act.

[CatatonicMan]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

According to Casey, here is why:

"CaseyH-ME2: Finally, if you are worried about the role of the ME1 love interest in the trilogy, consider that the romance itself is told across the trilogy, in 3 acts. Apply the 3-act concept to what's happening in your relationship with them, and you might guess where we're going with it."

Apparently they meant "told across the trilogy" in the same way that one would "jump across a river."

Just as one doesn't land in the river, they certainly didn't land any of that story in ME2.

[MrnDvlDg161]

Don't take any of my judgements as  " Dissapointment" , the only cheif  brain buster I had was that very difficult and painful interlude with  Ashley and then the further plunge of the dagger with a very distant Liara.  I guess the coucil members getting killed or not didn't really matter from what you folks have told me...so what was the point in that? I guess nothing.   Those are the main issues.

That was 2 gone into the dust, if I were Shepard, I'd have turned into one pissed off  Anti-Hero for sure.

Otherwise...after reading more comments... folks no one is ever going to be completely satisified.  Mass Effect is just one of those games that took a whole nother life of its own within our minds and if those minds happen to be creative, we're going to end up attempting to ask the impossible in one game.  There's too much.  Waaay too much.

I'm going have to agree with that one poster ( Sorry, I don't remember your handle)  --- the one that said Mass Effect was a better quality story.  The first series will always be the tone setter and in reality,  Mass Effect 1 left some very difficult shoes to fit in. You see,  there was most likely a lot of detailed time and pressure to get things right before the product was sold to the game market.  The 2nd sequal of any game always lags in this regard because what happens is, while your trying to finish No.2,  you'll have aggrivated fans who will then pester you about 1,0000 different thing to where it almost bullies you into complying with certain fixes that many other fans believed to either be the wrong choice or unesessary.

It was clearly shown just how different the  Li intereactions were compared to ME2. Quite clearly. With more near-adult graphics that chipped at the thin red line of censorship rules.  I think the most racy Li cut scene was  Miranda the rest were....very...very watered down although it was explained to me that it was due to  matieral objection with decency rules?

Having said that, just like in Star Wars: A New Hope.   There was a begining, a long middle, and a glorious end with a sense of accomplishment with Saren dead and the Reaper ship destroyed.  I will also say that aside from the empty planets and the Mako part... there wasn't much else to complain about  Mass Effect 1. Its as good as its going to get my friends.  It was indeed realistic at the price of maybe being boring to some.  I for one didn't care about how long the elevator rides were... so what?  It was realistic.  I found the complaints about load times and travel times gave people the more clatraphobic adapation of ME2.  This is where that whole  " fan bullying" comes from.

If they make a 3 or a 4 its just not going to quite fit because then you get into  " spot-fixing"  where you do away with one thing and tweak another only finding 50 more things that should be fixed... and you don't get what you want because there was too many to keep up with as people throught and demanded them.

I say just let the dice roll with what these folks at Bio Ware will do. If they screw up then they screw up.  Again --- the middle chapters always suffer in these multi-sequal projects.  The only real multi-part world I ever saw that was completely well done was The Lord of the Rings.  I saw that one comment about putting the book down when you know what will be.... I have to disagree.  How did anyone know what J.R Tolkien was going to do? Its a bit unfair to say that because back then, when no one really knew if he was going to make any more books, I'm betting it was a very adventerious read.

Still was.  He could have had the group fail at the mountain. He could have made a very tragic ending.  You couldn't know that unless you read the books but since there's re-adaptations, movies, cliff-notes, and numerous spoilers now.... the secrecy isn't there.

Just like how people claim  Assassin's Creed  was a terrible, terrible game.  In fact they added spoilers so  people could skip the 1st installment...but when there wasn't a  AC2 and you only had AC1 --- I bet that was a real good game judging by its sales!   Now its not.  Of course it isn't becase tweaks and fixes have been accomplished for a true comparison to be made. 

Another thing I will disagree on is that  Shepard's team was detoured to take out a different threat than the Reapers. He was fighting the Reapers.  These bad guys were simply a back-up to use because Soverighn was destroyed. The whole point is to figure out a way to fight them... only problem is that....errrrr...  I really don't want to spoil it but for those who didn't complete the game..... that choice you were forced to make along with the right/wrong argument between Shepard and the Illusive Man kind of put a monkey wrench in things. In many ways, the Illusive Man was right  on a tactical sense but morally bankrupt.

I think you all know what I'm referring to.


Edit: P.S :  Poster I was referrring to was Dinkamus.

Modifié par MrnDvlDg161, 18 août 2010 - 11:13 .

[Iakus]

bjdbwea wrote...
 Questions, questions. But of course the developers are silent.

Which is very strange, given the Dragon Age forums have developer posts all over the place, and they take at least as much flak as the developers here.  Especially since DA2 was announced.

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

Yeah, but in case you havent noticed, Bioware ignored the "trilogy" story arc as well.



ME2 advanced precisely nothing. It fleshed out a few shaky concepts involving people pate, and terminator cosplays, but ME1 and ME2 end in EXACTLY the same way: the reapers coming towards the milky way and the galaxy without a plan to stop them.



Maybe well get lucky, and that the ME1 LIs, like the overall plot of ME, gets a second beginning, this time finishing for good.



Or maybe they get a cameo that is complete crap a second time as one of MEs many supporting character, who while often quite good, dont feature much at all in teh grand scheme of things.

[Iakus]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

According to Casey, here is why:

"CaseyH-ME2: Finally, if you are worried about the role of the ME1 love interest in the trilogy, consider that the romance itself is told across the trilogy, in 3 acts. Apply the 3-act concept to what's happening in your relationship with them, and you might guess where we're going with it."

Basically, it was supposed to be the "dark second act of the romance" in ME2.

Now what I want to know is, does that mean a return to squadmate role in ME3? Or does it mean they made the ME2 role so crap, that they think a happy supporting character role will please us in ME3? I hope its the former, because after waiting this long, nothing but being a full on squadmate again will do. No other role simply measures up, its just too restricted.

Of course, its worded in such a way that he could easily be talking about one or the other: a full squadmate role in ME3 again, or a crappy supporting character role that supposed to make everything alright again in just 10 minutes, as opposed to naturally over the course of a game, like it should be done.

The Romance in ME 1 spans pretty much the entirety of the game from the moment you take command of the Normandy to Ilos.

It continues it's "dark second act" with...a conversation...Pretty brief second act.

I won't speculate on squaddies for ME 3.  Or even plot.  ME 2 has proven that such thoughts are pointless.

[bjdbwea]

iakus wrote...

Which is very strange, given the Dragon Age forums have developer posts all over the place, and they take at least as much flak as the developers here.  Especially since DA2 was announced.

Developers were active on the ME 2 forums too before release. Then came the silence.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 18 août 2010 - 11:22 .

[MrnDvlDg161]

On that thought...



Its too late for me now in a sense. Please don't screw up my Miranda/Tali game branches. I already had the character move on and now he's re-adjusted his life to the strange twists it made. No --- unexplainable shake ups or shake downs because such and so decided they wanted to fast track back to the original plot they scorched.



Liara can get shot in the back by the Shadow Keeper as far as I'm concerned at this point and Williams can get collected and liquefied.

[MrnDvlDg161]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

Yeah, but in case you havent noticed, Bioware ignored the "trilogy" story arc as well.

ME2 advanced precisely nothing. It fleshed out a few shaky concepts involving people pate, and terminator cosplays, but ME1 and ME2 end in EXACTLY the same way: the reapers coming towards the milky way and the galaxy without a plan to stop them.

Maybe well get lucky, and that the ME1 LIs, like the overall plot of ME, gets a second beginning, this time finishing for good.

Or maybe they get a cameo that is complete crap a second time as one of MEs many supporting character, who while often quite good, dont feature much at all in teh grand scheme of things.

Well thats the point I made. I already done set my character's emotional considerations to the two new Li's and therefore the first ones don't mean scrap to him.  Attempting to reverse that would make me stop playing, if they totally scrambled the soup of the plot trying to fix it will only turn it into a bowl of bitter waste.

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

MrnDvlDg161 wrote...

Well thats the point I made. I already done set my character's emotional considerations to the two new Li's and therefore the first ones don't mean scrap to him.  Attempting to reverse that would make me stop playing, if they totally scrambled the soup of the plot trying to fix it will only turn it into a bowl of bitter waste.

Well, thats what you get for setting up Shepard with exendable mercenaries.

I didnt want Liara to be foisted off somewhere else, but it happened.

Since Miranda and Tali will be dead for a lot of folks, limiting their usefullness as plot sensitive squadmates, you might want to get comfy with the idea of a potential split up of the ME2 squad.

Maybe Miranda should go off and take care of her sister, after what she does at a certain point in ME2 which I cannot speak of for spoilers.

Modifié par Dinkamus_Littlelog, 18 août 2010 - 11:32 .

[MrnDvlDg161]

Ahhh well --- then it would be very true... the choice thing was a falsehood if that will the case.



Once was bad enough.



Twice? Totally wrong.

[MrnDvlDg161]

Dikamus... I'd say your just one pissed off fan my friend lol

I however share your mis-givings, its obvious the Li portion of the game was a big story brick for you --- it was indeed mine as well  (  ahem the Ashley incident), I would have been perfectly fine having Shepard maintain the choice --- and in this case, it was Liara for my  ME1 game.

I didn't expect what they did. It was tough.

Modifié par MrnDvlDg161, 18 août 2010 - 11:56 .

[MrnDvlDg161]

While we are on story screw ups and such...



Who here was totally turned upside down when you decided to pull your Renegade trigger when you bumped into that sensationalist reporter back at the Citadel? I was like --- Holy ____ , I didn't think he was going to go to that extreme.

[Kriztaen]

eldav wrote...

eerrrr....correct me if im wrong but isnt ME saga the first games that Bioware has done sequels too ?
(never played baldurs gate)

Neverwinter Nights 1 & 2 + a bunch of expansions. (though no true sequels I will admit)

Fallout 1 & 2

Icewind Dale 1 & 2

Baldur's Gate 1 + TotSC + 2:SoA + ToB - BG was exactly the perfect example of a Saga/Trilogy that followed all the way from start to finish with one major plot point always integrated into the story and is to this day my favourite RPG story and favourite Game (I count it all as 1 as I use extensive mods to make it 1 huge open world RPG) It was the perfect mix of memorable villains, loveable and memorable Party and Non-party characters, a great and epic story covered by amazing writing and a world that truly felt alive.

Sorry for going off-topic. Just felt the need to reply to that post to say "Yes, BioWare has experience with sequels and has infact made a former trilogy that was pretty much universally acclaimed."

But seriously, looking at the BG saga and hearing someone say BW has no experience with sequels is just silly.

But going back to the main focus of this topic: Personally i am on the fence for which ME I like more, I liked the mako but hated the explorable worlds after 2-3. I loved the larger skill trees but felt it made some cross-over too evident and killed some of the individuality so it felt more like Sentinel, Soldier, Adept, Engineer were the only classes and Infiltrator and Vanguard were just flavour. Iiked ME2's crew more but missed Wrex and felt ME 1 had more dialogue.

I loved Omega (it  was a good size) but missed the old Citadel greatly. Overall I liked Saren/Nazara more that the verbally tedious Harbinger. I absolutely hated loading screens and mission complete screens with a passion and miss my transitional (elevator/Normandy door/docking) scenes but I loved the new way the galaxy map worked compared to the first. Lastly I actually loved the new armor system but hated ammo/no more armor or weapon mods.

If you just look at that list you can see just how specific people's tastes might be and I am sure at least half of the people feel different about at least half of the things. Its all personal preference. Diversity may lead to dissagreement but diversity and personal opinions is also what makes like interesting.

Modifié par Kriztaen, 19 août 2010 - 12:27 .

[Pocketgb]

bjdbwea wrote...
Oh yeah? So why could I run through all passers-by as if they were ghosts?

Why does no one seem to care that you're raising hell with your AR in the Citadel?

bjdbwea wrote...
So much for immersion.

Once again: Strong proof as to why it'll be impossible to please both 'sides'. "Immersion" is a tricky beast to handle because it's as personal and subjective as a favorite color. Not only do some people find different aspects 'immersive', some people find certain immersion 'too-much' and 'boring'.