10273 réponses à ce sujet

[Solaris Paradox]

iakus wrote...

Alternatively, grab one colony of humans, and start cloning.  I mean, the Collectors have the technology to create a tank-bred "perfect" krogan.  Why not humans?

This I can answer: they're not looking for one single genetic code or even a relative "handful" of genetic codes. They want the full range of human genetic material, so they need millions of *diverse* humans. Feeding the larval human Reaper a million clones of a single colony's worth of humans might be sufficient, but would defeat the purpose of building the human Reaper in the first place. That humans have a very diverse genetic structure from individual to individual is actually a point brought up in the game several times. That said, I'm getting pretty tired of the fantasy cliche of "the human race is more individualistic, other races are more stereotyped." It's really... egotistical? Racist? I don't know, but it seems as close to bigotted as you can get when talking about things that don't exist.

[Nightwriter]

But can't you get genetic material from skin flakes? Hair samples? Why do you need to kidnap whole colonies?

[Gundar3]

Nightwriter wrote...

But can't you get genetic material from skin flakes? Hair samples? Why do you need to kidnap whole colonies?

Its more sinister that way.  Im not sure I would call stopping the collectors from getting some samples of hair from a brush an epic and vital suicide mission.

[Iakus]

Solaris Paradox wrote...

This I can answer: they're not looking for one single genetic code or even a relative "handful" of genetic codes. They want the full range of human genetic material, so they need millions of *diverse* humans. Feeding the larval human Reaper a million clones of a single colony's worth of humans might be sufficient, but would defeat the purpose of building the human Reaper in the first place. That humans have a very diverse genetic structure from individual to individual is actually a point brought up in the game several times. That said, I'm getting pretty tired of the fantasy cliche of "the human race is more individualistic, other races are more stereotyped." It's really... egotistical? Racist? I don't know, but it seems as close to bigotted as you can get when talking about things that don't exist.

I would think that tens of thousands of humans would provide a big enough sample to "mix and match".  I mean, when you get down to genetics, isn't it mainly the same "stuff" put together in different combinations?  Collectors should be able to examine some DNA strands, figure out what goes where, and start playing around with new strands.  I mean, the Reapers can repurpose whole species to suite their needs.  How hard could it be to make "artificial human smoothie"?

And yeah, "humans are special" was a bad turn for the game, generally speaking.  ME 1 had humans as the "little fish in a big pond"  Full of potential, but unproven newcomers and not really trusted yet.  Now their the specialest of the special.  Or maybe that's Shepard...

[Iakus]

Nightwriter wrote...

But can't you get genetic material from skin flakes? Hair samples? Why do you need to kidnap whole colonies?

I would think you'd need live cells to get DNA.  But apparantly you can get enough DNA from skin flakes to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Commander Shepard is in fact Commander Shepard, and not a shapechanger or clone so...yeah...

[Massadonious1]

bjdbwea wrote...
Oh, but that's just conspiracty theories, didn't you know.

We do.

Each and every journalist is a highly professional individual, and all magazines and web sites are striving for is to bring us the truth, and nothing but the truth. Whatever they say can be taken at face value, because mammon is of no concern to them.

It's clearly easier to believe that the vast majority of reviewers and journalists that give games good scores or written reviews are paid off or otherwise have ulterior motives than to actually believe they found the game worthy of the scores they gave it. What's life like in your world, up there in the clouds?

You would think that a company as gigantic as EA could get glowing reviews from all the games they put out, and yet crap like Army of Two, Dante's Inferno, and Godfather 2 can barely muster 6/10 or 60/100, or in some cases, 4/10, 5/10, 50/100 scores from these very same journalists and websites. Maybe because, I don't know, those games were actually mediocre?

Nah, of course not. What a prepostorous thought.

Modifié par Massadonious1, 20 août 2010 - 10:13 .

[Il Divo]

iakus wrote...

It indicates that there are profiles of ships believed to be Collectors at some point.  Given the fact that we only ever see one single Collector ship seems to indicate that if they ever had other ships in use, they don't anymore.

But what is your basis for this conclusion? The narrative tells us that there is indeed a Collector vessel on "Shepard duty". Hence why all our encounters (5 in total) with the Collectors involve that same ship.

1) Shepard's death.
2) Horizon.
3) Derelict Collector Vessel.
4) The Capture of the Normandy's crew.
5) Suicide Mission encounter.

We learn about the first three from the Collector Ship. We learn about four and five during the suicide mission. This ship is specifically shown to be tracking Shepard. How do we conclude that the Collectors have only one ship (especially when considering the alternate EM signatures) when we are told that this ship is assigned to track Shepard? Of course we are only going to deal with this one ship if that is the case.

Then where were the others when the Normandy arrived on the other side of the relay?  They only had one ship to defend their base?  Coincidentally, the same one that's on "Shepard duty"?  I could imagine the reaction to another Collector vessel arriving after Shepard  & Friends blow up the base:

Yes, the same one that's on Shepard duty. The same one that just hijacked your crew and headed beyond Omega IV also happens to be there when Shepard and co. make their way onto the Base.

If it turns out there are more Collector ships out there, then keeping the base suddenly got a lot more problematic.

My take: it's way beyond coincidence that the same ship keeps turning up because the Collectors only have the one ship.  It's not coincidence, it's simple logistics.

So, you're saying that logically the Collectors only have one ship because the narrative tells us that this one particular ship was specifically assigned to track Commander Shepard?

The Council did, thinking it was an isolated incident (first time geth were seen beond the Veil in 300 years)  The humans were most certainly not letting it go unchallenged.  Now many human colonies were being hit, and humans were now on the Council/running the Council.  To follow ME 1's pattern, the Council might drag its feet (the alien one at least), but Udina/Anderson should be jumping up and down screaming for something to be done.  The reason no one's but Cerberus is paying attention to disappearing human colonies seems to be more DM Fiat than any reason that makes sense.

Again, Terminus Systems. The Collectors operate in the Terminus Systems. Random colonies are hit at random times. There is no pattern to the attacks. No one has any idea what is going on. Humanity has just obtained a seat on the Council, had to fight a Geth fleet, and is now forced to help rebuild the Citadel. Human colonies on the Terminus Systems are the least of their worries.

As to the Collectors not wanting to draw attention, It's bound to happen anyway. 

Yes, it is. But one colony at a time with no distinct order draws much less attention than hitting many colonies as fast as possible. That is what you seem to be advocating. Illusive Man himself tells us that the Alliance is currently dealing with far bigger issues than a few human colonies. They now either control (or have a great influence on) galactic civilization. Eden Prime was important because it represented Humanity's efforts to have an impact on galactic affairs. The Alliance wanted the Council to act as a testament to humanity's worth. They now have that impact. A few colonies are not a big deal. Illusive Man himself tells us that the Alliance is perfectly content blaming the problem on mercenaries and bandits. 

 In a universe that makes any sense at least.  I mean, entire colonies disappearing without a trace should draw attention.  The mere fact that multiple colonies disappearing without a trace should ring alarm bells.  Raiders, slavers, geth,  thresher maws, Cerberus experiments, plagues, Reaper tech gone haywire.  All would leave a trace.  But absolutely nothing?  This is already a sign that Something Is Not Right.  The smart money would be, as soon as atention is drawn, send out as many ships as possible, as quickly as possible, and load up on humans.

Which triggers a full scale war with the Terminus Systems (Geth, Batarians, whatever) and still does not tell us who is behind the attacks. I do not risk war before I understand what threat I may be facing. The Alliance eventually does become involved by sending Williams/Alenko to Horizon. A long shot? Yes, but your solution would involve a huge conflict following severe damage to the Citadel fleets. That is not what anyone wants at this point over a few human colonies.

I suppose given the fact that the Council remains blissfully ignorant of any threat that exists up to an including an attempt by a Reaper to use the Citadel to end all advanced life in the galaxy, it really doesn't matter which method they choose, no one's gonna do anything.  But that seems so...contrived...

RPG plots are the very definition of contrived. Mass Effect is filled with them. The entire 'Call to Adventure' doesn't make any sense. Hell, most plots are contrived in some manner. Are you really going to point out to me an interesting plot with absolutely no contrived elements to consider?

Modifié par Il Divo, 20 août 2010 - 06:29 .

[MrnDvlDg161]

Again... probably a repetitive post on my part...

Some of you are are simply taking the plot of this game and attempting to over-load it to novel-depth levels when it wasn't made for  4th and 5th layers of critical thinking.

Its a Space Opera. Loose science.  There's plenty of holes ---  this is not  Honor Harrington... its  Star Wars.  Its Babylon 5.  Cool off and relax before the arguments start to pour through about complex plots and internal meanings.

Now I'm seeing some that are mainting the poor game is turning racist... I'm geez... ease up folks. If you don't like the game at this point...then I suppose you can mutter in rage and.... I don't know... play something else and leave it in the smouldering heap of ruin you put it in.

[Solaris Paradox]

iakus wrote...

I would think that tens of thousands

 
A single Terminus colony, tens of thousands? Did Horizon look that full to you?

"Tens of thousands" is how much they got because they were even going after so many colonies in the first place. And if they need millions, they want millions of diverse genetic material.

of humans would provide a big enough sample to "mix and match".  I mean, when you get down to genetics, isn't it mainly the same "stuff" put together in different combinations?

The same "stuff?" Oi, that "stuff" changes and adapts over time, remember? That "stuff" isn't supposed to stay the same. Keeping it the same cheapens it. Or causes inbreeding, depending on the context. Also, it kind of blows the mind when you think about the sheer size and scope that sort of cloning project would even be. Somehow I just think that when you ignore the genetic implications, abducting remote colonies under the political cover of the hostile Terminus Systems is preferable sheerly for the sake of convenience.

Collectors should be able to examine some DNA strands, figure out what goes where, and start playing around with new strands.  I mean, the Reapers can repurpose whole species to suite their needs.  How hard could it be to make "artificial human smoothie"?

The Collectors were repurposed starting with indoctrination, which results in mental breakdown over either a short or long period of time depending on how quickly the subjects are indoctrinated. They gradually failed and were augmented with tech to compensate. No glands, replaced by tech. No digestive system, replaced by tech. No soul. Replaced by tech. Didn't you listen to Mordin?

That sort of repurposing doesn't sound to me like the sort of thing you want to do to fuel the creation of a Reaper. You want fresh, top-quality produce, so you harvest it fresh, straight from the fertile soil of actual human society.

And yeah, "humans are special" was a bad turn for the game, generally speaking.  ME 1 had humans as the "little fish in a big pond"  Full of potential, but unproven newcomers and not really trusted yet.  Now their the specialest of the special.  Or maybe that's Shepard...

It's not really a "bad turn," just a particular emphasis on that old D&D race cliche. Technically it fits in perfectly with that "potential" thing they set up in the first game, and technically, it's only the Reapers that percieve humans to be "special," partly, as the Illusive Man suggests, because Shepard caught their attention. When you consider that it's mainly their perspective, it could reasonably be assumed that their judgment is flawed and humans aren't "really" special.

The side-item that humans are more diverse and individualistic than other races (stated most bluntly during a conversation with Samara--"If there are three humans in a room, there will be six opinions"--and in Mordin's analysis of human genetics having more potential for diversity and humans being less liable to fit into a racial stereotype) is just a science-happy version of the comparison between humans and elves/dwarves/halflings/gnomes. It works for story purposes, it just stinks of human arrogance. As the kind of player whose roleplay involved heartfelt disagreement with both Cerberus and the Terra Firma Party, that kind of annoys me.

[tonnactus]

Vandrayke wrote...



Yes you did have similar core abilities in ME1, but squadmates' abilities work better together in ME2. Much more tactical, in my opinion.

The only thing that didnt exists as a combination are warp bombs.Thats it.But using someones lift and combine it with

another throw? Easy possible in the first.

[tonnactus]

lazuli wrote...


It would be nice if enemies had more abilities, but I do not think they should have access to all of the powers the player has.  The levels aren't built for Shepard to ragdoll around in.

The captain wasea fight happened in a building without ledges.So shepardt could be ragdolled there.At least bosses
should be able to do that in the so called "insanity".

[tonnactus]

iakus wrote...


It indicates that there are profiles of ships believed to be Collectors at some point.  Given the fact that we only ever see one single Collector ship seems to indicate that if they ever had other ships in use, they don't anymore.

Its also unlikely that something important like the collector base would be protected by one ship only if they had more
of them.Even if the reapers assume that no one anyway could make it that far(but why there are things like the oculus
then?),at least the base would be also used as a port there ships got repaired/got fuel.

The comments in the collector ship i call bad writing.Mass Effect 2 is full of that.

[tonnactus]

Nightwriter wrote...

But can't you get genetic material from skin flakes? Hair samples? Why do you need to kidnap whole colonies?

Or just use a database/engineering the variations themselves.
Or just take a bunch of people,take them to their homeworld and crop them like pigs and cows if its just for reapers reproduction needs.(10000 is enough to keep genetic variety)
They wouldnt need the cycle just for reproduction needs.Once they find a suitable race they could just crop them like a farmer do it with his chicken and cows.

[tonnactus]

Solaris Paradox wrote...

iakus wrote...

I would think that tens of thousands

 
A single Terminus colony, tens of thousands? Did Horizon look that full to you?

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Horizon

Far more then just tens of thousands.

[Solaris Paradox]

Huh. There must have been a lot of off-screening going on, then.

EDIT: "Known Collector profiles" is likely referring to what little exposure the Collectors have had with the rest of the galaxy over time. They trade technology with people from time to time; they're illusive enough that many consider them a myth, but at some point, someone who encountered them must have noticed their ship. It's possible there was always one ship, and it's possible they've used and worn out many ships over the centuries but only ever used/needed one at any given time. Think outside the box a little, would you? Not everything has to be interpretted in the context of what's been going on in the last five minutes.

It's strongly suggested that there was only ever one Collector Ship in Mass Effect 2's timeframe, but the Collectors have been around for what, fifty thousand years or so?

EDIT 2: You're coming up with alternate strategies and trying to use the existence of alternate strategies as the reason the one they went with is somehow nonsensical. It doesn't work. Flanking from the right isn't automatically a strategic failure just because it's also possible to flank from the left.
 
EDIT 3 (last one, I swear): Incidentally, the ultimate goal is to grind entire humans down into goo. Trying to farm out a million over time rather than just abducting a million and throwing them all into a blender the moment you get them to the blender... it's a much slower process. For one thing, breeding takes time. You want a full-grown adult? Fifteen years or more. Want those to breed more? Gotta wait again. Nine months a pop. Fifteen or so years a generation. You're already looking at about fifteen two-year time skips right there. Abduct a bunch of colonies? Work gets done in a fraction of the time. Sure, crap goes down, but you're safe behind the Omega 4 Relay, so let it hit the fan all it wants, it's not getting through to our impenetrable for--*MUSHROOM CLOUD*

If the Reapers were content with gradual cloning as a harvesting method, they wouldn't have started this whole mass-relay galaxy-harvesting thing in the first place. Does this mean the Reapers' methods are flawed? Possibly.

Modifié par Solaris Paradox, 20 août 2010 - 08:51 .

[Mister Mida]

NewMessageN00b wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

bjdbwea wrote...

11. Story was reset for no good reason other than to reset the character and mechanics.
12. My choices from ME 1 made almost no difference whatsoever.
13. Nothing was ever done with the death and resurrection theme.
14. Characters I liked were tossed aside like old rag dolls.
15. There was no "dark" second act to the romance, there was none at all.
16. Shepard acts like a robot too often, I can't feel a connection, it's not my Shepard anymore.
17. Side quests are ridiculously simple, way too short and lack spoken briefings.
18. No exploration.
19. Why is there no proper economy? Why can't I sell stuff and minerals?
20. Everything is way too railroaded and "streamlined" at the cost of immersion.

And I could go on. But most of it has already been mentioned in this thread and others.

No: 18 does get little bit my support, but same problem is in hole Mass Effect serie. Everything else is way too much your personal issues as what you like. Most of them seem to come from ME1 or from you personal taste and needs. So, you issues aren't disapointments for me.

Did Kotor 2 continue Kotor 1 story and characters?

People been saying to me KOTOR2 sucks, compared to KOTOR1. Literally everyone. In person.

This one disagrees that KotOR2 sucks compared to KotOR, but it's unfinished state didn't do it much good either.

[Solaris Paradox]

17. Side quests are ridiculously simple, way too short and lack spoken briefings.

At least they don't recycle the same barren mountainscape and three buildings over and over and over again OH SNAP I TOTALLY JUST WENT THERE.



Spoken briefings or no, I can't call the sidequests a "disappointment" when the ultimate result is that they're still more complicated and varied than the sidequests in the original.

[Lumikki]

NewMessageN00b wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Did Kotor 2 continue Kotor 1 story and characters?

People been saying to me KOTOR2 sucks, compared to KOTOR1. Literally everyone. In person.

"Aren't disappointments" don't sound like "things I really liked". Right... because they aren't there.

It's the different why something "sucks". Kotor 2 doesn't "suck" because it's story or because there isn't same characters. Kotor 2 "sucks" because it's technically low quality. A lot of bugs what doesn't make gameplay fun. In my opinion it looks more like Kotor 2 was rushed to market before it was fully done. How ever, there is also improvements to compared to Kotor 1 too.

Modifié par Lumikki, 20 août 2010 - 10:20 .

[bjdbwea]

KotoR 2 was very disappointing too. Obsidian had great ideas, and some, for example the improved RPG elements, were implemented and enjoyable, but overall the game was simply unfinished and unpolished.

KotoR 2 suffered from two things: Too little time and too much ambition. ME 2 only suffered from the first. Which makes its disappointing state even less acceptable.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 20 août 2010 - 10:24 .

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

Massadonious1 wrote...

It's clearly easier to believe that the vast majority of reviewers and journalists that give games good scores or written reviews are paid off or otherwise have ulterior motives than to actually believe they found the game worthy of the scores they gave it. What's life like in your world, up there in the clouds?

You would think that a company as gigantic as EA could get glowing reviews from all the games they put out, and yet crap like Army of Two, Dante's Inferno, and Godfather 2 can barely muster 6/10 or 60/100, or in some cases, 4/10, 5/10, 50/100 scores from these very same journalists and websites. Maybe because, I don't know, those games were actually mediocre?

Nah, of course not. What a prepostorous thought.

Of course, I mean huge titles that have a tremendous expectation placed on them (which none of your crappy examples cover) routinely flop and get scathing reviews dont they? I mean, how could gamers possibly think there is a precedent for big name big budget games automatically getting big name and big score reviews with so little evidence to back it up.

Whats it like in your world, up there in the clouds?

Maybe you should get a grip and actually accept that games not getting reviews publishers agree with has been a long standing reason for the reviews to not be allowed to be published.

Notice that all those early Mass Effect 2 reviews with 10/10s had pretty much NO criticism in whatsoever, despite the HUGE list of flaws an unbiased and honest person could choose from, as many gamers have done? Its just one long sales pitch, thats all.

No, what am I thinking! Journalists value their integrity and are bringing honest opinions of greatness to the masses, as opposed to trying to flog a game because if they dont their bosses and the games publishers will be breathing down their neck.

Modifié par Dinkamus_Littlelog, 20 août 2010 - 10:30 .

[bjdbwea]

Solaris Paradox wrote...

Spoken briefings or no, I can't call the sidequests a "disappointment" when the ultimate result is that they're still more complicated and varied than the sidequests in the original.

Varied - perhaps. Complicated? Ha ha. It's either "shoot everything that moves" (like in most ME 1 side quests), or it's a mission "objective" that's so simple and dumb that it should belong in a game for little children.

"And now you press a button to pick up a battery. Press the button again to feed it to a Mech. Repeat that two times more. Well done, mission completed!"

What's that you say? It's hard to give non-shooting missions more interesting gameplay? Depth usually has to come through dialogue? Like in the Samara or Thane missions too? Indeed. And that's why the side missions in ME 1 are so much superior. We get to talk to NPCs, we get some interesting moral questions, we get decisions. And there you have your variety too.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 20 août 2010 - 10:33 .

[Dem_B]

Basic plot of ME2 was not quite good. 
ME2 was "Gather the team", but the basic storyline was as a supplement to this.
Of course we can say that ME1 was "Go after Saren" but I have not been this Impressions.
In ME2 was no key moments. In ME1 it was a conversation with the Sovereign on Virmire. 
In ME2 were very dramatic moments but after the passage, I had mixed feelings, I could not affirmatively say that it is a masterpiece, but i can not say it is bad.
Despite the fact that in the final the whole team can die, in general can be said that Shepard won again, but i would like to see not only the victory.
Undoubtedly ME3 will few surprises, but Shepard necessarily will the win the Reapers.
Reapers Technologies accumulated over millions of years, but Shepard are relatively easy victory. It was impossible to save everyone in ME1 (Virmire), but in ME2 can destroy the all Collectors base station and no one in team will die, as in a fairy tale.
Plot ME2 would be better if this part of the Reaper won, and the fight would not seem so easy.
I believe that the basic plot ME2 worse than ME1, but some moments in ME2 cause me more impressions.

If you could talk with "dead Reaper" Reaper IFF mission.
Or talk with Collector General - Harbinger. Before destroying the station, this could be the key moment the game, to hear the answers of course not all, but to few questions :  social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/103/index/4424084/1
If ME1 key phrases throughout the game, in my opinion, is: Cycle can not be broken - Sovereign, then in ME2 is :That which you know as Reapers are your salvation through destruction - Harbinger.
If was at least one dialogue with the Reaper, I would have completely changed their opinion about ME2, for me it would be a game where there is a key point, the main plot point.
Without this, the game turned into a "Gather the team and explode Collectors base".
It can be described ME2. Of course we saw Migrant fleet, learn about other Geths, saw Krogan home planet, everything is just great, but I do not agree that it should have been at the forefront to become the main part of the game.

There was not really memorable music as a form the wreckage in ME1.
I think form the wreckage the best melody of the game.
music in ME1 for me was better than ME2.

[Lumikki]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

No, what am I thinking! Journalists value their integrity and are bringing honest opinions of greatness to the masses, as opposed to trying to flog a game because if they dont their bosses and the games publishers will be breathing down their neck.

Pretty much so, if journalist can not make "neutral truthfull" review, that journal doesn't have long care. Of course it's allways colored everyones induvidual style and opinions too, but base has to be solid.

It's little funny that when reviews doesn't fit players own opinions, it's bad review.  When some other game fits, thats good review. Is that little hypocrite. I ques everyone can come up they own excuses to support they own opinions and dismiss reviews if they don't fit players own opinions.

Modifié par Lumikki, 20 août 2010 - 11:00 .

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

Lumikki wrote...

Pretty much so, if journalist can not make "neutral truthfull" review, that journal doesn't have long care. Of course it's allways colored everyones induvidual style and opinions too, but base has to be solid.

It's little funny that when reviews doesn't fit players own opinions, it's bad review.  When some other game fits, thats good review. Is that little hypocrite. I ques everyone can come up they own excuses to support they own opinions and dismiss reviews if they don't fit players own opinions.

No, its not funny, since its not true. A lot of people, like myself dont care for reviews at all. I think you might have noticed I havent once brought up some of the "perfect" scores ME1 got. Simple reason is, I dont care. Not only do I think reviewing a game with a score that implies "perfection" is the height of idiocy, I simply dont care about people who are paid to review these games opinions. I instead browsed forums, and I cared much more that, for all the criticism about ME1s flaws, most gamers still found something to love about the game.

Thats the difference between what I have seen with ME2, where its much more of a mixed bag, where you have people claiming ME2 is gaming perfection, then people who feel the same way about ME2 as ME1 (flawed but still excellent), and there are also plenty of people like me who dont like the game very much at all due to the changes made to try and draw in people who didnt care about this franchise before.

Even the reviews out there that actually offer an opinion similar to mine I dont care about. I would take heart in that if they are being critical, they certainly are speaking their own views about the game, but they are still getting paid for it.

Everyone is a critic if they choose to be, so I dont give a crap about the views of those are paid to do it. I care more about those who pay out of their own pockets and then offer their views.