10273 réponses à ce sujet

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

There are certain things I can take from either game and place side by side that really demonstrate why I cant stand ME2.



Lets say for example talking to sovereign on Virmire. Now Virmire was one of a few ME1 plot worlds that was reliant on shooting, but I would say somewhat made up for it with some nice doses of plot dialogue. You had the confrontation with Wrex (a much, much better execution of loyalty at work than ME2, a game supposedly about loyalty and squadmates, could manage) at the camp which offered a nice break in the action, and then of course great dialogue with Sovereign and Saren.



Talking to sovereign though was for me one of the standout moments of the game.



Now compare that to ME2 with the IFF mission. Now without going into details, this mission should have offered one of the most awesome moments of storytelling in the trilogy, and really been a bastion for some great dialogue and in general advancing some of the trilogy.



What do you come away from the IFF mission with? A criminally underused character who isnt given enough time to flourish, and husk spam. Lots and lots of husk spam. With a few scions.



That is pathetic, and in a nutshell why ME2 is one of the most disappointing games Ive ever played, and without question the worst sequel Ive ever played.

[bjdbwea]

Epic777 wrote...

Also would have it been better if the shooter part suffered this round for the other side.

Yes. This is more or less what happened in ME 1. And it was well. There are countless shooters out there, but there are very few good RPGs. Just because a game has guns in it, doesn't mean it has to please fans of the shooter genre.

[Pocketgb]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...
Now compare that to ME2 with the IFF mission...

Not to push aside and say that your disappoint is 'unwarranted', but is that really a fair comparison? Shouldn't you be comparing the Sovereign meeting with the revelations that occur on the Collector ship?

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

Pocketgb wrote...

Not to push aside and say that your disappoint is 'unwarranted', but is that really a fair comparison? Shouldn't you be comparing the Sovereign meeting with the revelations that occur on the Collector ship?

No, because thats even less of a fair comparison.

The collectors are just mooks. Any revelation about them is pathetic by comparison to talking to the REAL threat of the trilogy.

They are just one act wonders, and honestly, that prothean/collector connection is one of the weakest attempts at a so called "plot twist" Ive ever seen. The protheans arent even an active plot element at that point, and if they are again in future, the collectors have been destroyed anyway.

Modifié par Dinkamus_Littlelog, 20 août 2010 - 03:48 .

[Pocketgb]

bjdbwea wrote...
Yes. This is more or less what happened in ME 1. And it was well. There are countless shooters out there, but there are very few good RPGs. Just because a game has guns in it, doesn't mean it has to please fans of the shooter genre.

Agreed completely, further highlighting my disappointment with ME1.

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...
No, because thats even less of a fair comparison.

The collectors are just mooks. Any revelation about them is pathetic by comparison to talking to the REAL threat of the trilogy.

I can't agree with that, really.

In ME1 we discover what a Reaper is: Machine, ancient, massive, and terrifying. With ME2 things cease to be come straight-forward, we discover what really happened to the Protheans (and thus another showcase of Reaper capabilities) and most eerie of all we discover what really happens in creating a Reaper. While it's hard to beat the 1st in the series when it comes to the "oh crap" moments, ME2 didn't disappoint me in this regards.

To put it simply: In ME1 we know the Reapers' goal, and in ME2 we're given the reasons for it.

Modifié par Pocketgb, 20 août 2010 - 04:09 .

[MrnDvlDg161]

Epic777 wrote...

MrnDvlDg161 wrote...

Yes --- they. Them. The shooter crowd. Where a few seconds suddenly becomes tedious and a paragraph suddenly becomes a college essay in their world. You can see the imprint all over from the general complaints the RPG side submits. Its a dual Game. Action/RPG. The RPG part suffered this round for the other side.

Who complained about about the dialogue being too long? All I remember about the me1 reviews was the complaining about the combat environments. Also would have it been better if the shooter part suffered this round for the other side. 

Well this depends what reviews were seen and where...which could be 1,000's around the internet.    Let me also make it clear that this is not a shot at first person shooters --- as I myself love FPS's too... in this case however,  the action/FPS group was clearly catered to in many ways -- some of which I pointed out.  It almost mirrored the same objections of people that claimed  Fall Out 3 was a horrible and terrible game...because they went in thinking it was something like Call Of Duty-esque when it clearly wasn't.  The transition seen in ME2 borders around condensed spaces,  elements that were labeled as boring/tedious  --- all of which were attributes of an RPG style game.


And as I know this is a tiresome point but when we were introduced with the idea of a min-ME1 to facilitate a platform move, it brought a whole new can of worms into the equation with a sort of a  skip mechanism where you fastforwarded to only the important parts just to leap into the story.  Now its like...   Ok. So Mass Effect's intention has been labeled a flaw --- because its too long to play to get into it...and therefore we must condense it.  Another FPS symptom.  The two worlds are colliding and there now exists an imbalance.

[tonnactus]

Solaris Paradox wrote...
 It's possible there was always one ship, and it's possible they've used and worn out many ships over the centuries but only ever used/needed one at any given time.

Its possible that the other "ships" are shuttles and small freighters and only one big ship existed all the time.
And what the heck are ship profiles? The us had some f-16 fit,one build exactly like another. So how was it possible anyway to indentify if the collector ship was the same all the time?

EDIT 2: You're coming up with alternate strategies and trying to use the existence of alternate strategies as the reason the one they went with is somehow nonsensical. It doesn't work. Flanking from the right isn't automatically a strategic failure just because it's also possible to flank from the left.

?
 

EDIT 3 (last one, I swear): Incidentally, the ultimate goal is to grind entire humans down into goo. 

This time that are humans,right.

Trying to farm out a million over time rather than just abducting a million and throwing them all into a blender the moment you get them to the blender... it's a much slower process.

The time between each reaper cycle is 50000 years.
And waiting for populations growing after each cycle in a natural way is far slower then to crop them.
Take a sample of 10000 parts,let them grow by 1 percent 10000 years.You get a digit with 46 numbers,far enough just for reproduction needs.
That show that reproduction couldnt by the reason for the reaper cycle that happen every 50000 years.
All that would be necessary is to take some thousands of a suitiable race and crop them like pigs and cows.
years alone

If the Reapers were content with gradual cloning as a harvesting method, they wouldn't have started this whole mass-relay galaxy-harvesting thing in the first place. Does this mean the Reapers' methods are flawed? Possibly.

No.The reason for the cycle is not reproduction(at least this reason doesnt make any sense).Plain and simple.

Remember what the thorian did with dead protheans,what the thing got by doing this and you have an idea what would make far more sense.The essence of race,building "nations".

Modifié par tonnactus, 20 août 2010 - 04:42 .

[MrnDvlDg161]

Hell I love the game.



But this was a discussion about flaws though and I must repeat it has great re-playability and the folks did a good job for what they wanted to provide.



"In ME1 we discover what a Reaper is: Machine, ancient, massive, and terrifying. With ME2 things cease to be come straight-forward, we discover what really happened to the Protheans (and thus another showcase of Reaper capabilities) and most eerie of all we discover what really happens in creating a Reaper. While it's hard to beat the 1st in the series when it comes to the "oh crap" moments, ME2 didn't disappoint me in this regards.



To put it simply: In ME1 we know the Reapers' goal, and in ME2 we're given the reasons for it."



Yes you have to have a middle portion before you get to the next chapter. You were shown the evil the reapers could accomplish and not only that, they just didn't destroy the Protheons, they completely turned them into genetic tools to do their dirty work.... sort of like using an example of what can happen if you should think to get in the way of their plans.



Good stuff.

[MrnDvlDg161]

I would also like to point out ---


Did anyone find it odd that they would let the Keepers crawl around and do the same crap they've been doing after being told that the peace-ful like silent bugs were actully Reaper conduits for the  " Final Solution".  Sure they worked fast in rebuilding the place but what idiot stands there after surviving a Reaper attack saying ---

" Gee you know, I don't know where they got their supplies or how they did it but ---  wooo hoo -- look at the fine job their doing mysteriously rebuiling the place!  My! My! I ought to hire them to renovate my office!" 

I mean... I know the Protheon AI said they put a good stop to it...but if it were me, I think I'd much rather do the crap my self from then on just to make sure it really was shut down.

Modifié par MrnDvlDg161, 20 août 2010 - 04:38 .

[tonnactus]

MrnDvlDg161 wrote...

I would also like to point out ---


Did anyone find it odd that they would let the Keepers crawl around and do the same crap they've been doing after being told that the peace-ful like silent bugs were actully Reaper conduits for the  " Final Solution". 

They are not controlled by the reapers anymore.Thats why the reapers wanted to replace them with geth.

[MrnDvlDg161]

tonnactus wrote...

MrnDvlDg161 wrote...

I would also like to point out ---


Did anyone find it odd that they would let the Keepers crawl around and do the same crap they've been doing after being told that the peace-ful like silent bugs were actully Reaper conduits for the  " Final Solution". 

They are not controlled by the reapers anymore.Thats why the reapers wanted to replace them with geth.

They are not controlled by the reapers anymore.Thats why the reapers wanted to replace them with geth.

I still would be weary of the critters. Thats just me though.

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

Pocketgb wrote...

I can't agree with that, really.

In ME1 we discover what a Reaper is: Machine, ancient, massive, and terrifying. With ME2 things cease to be come straight-forward, we discover what really happened to the Protheans (and thus another showcase of Reaper capabilities) and most eerie of all we discover what really happens in creating a Reaper. While it's hard to beat the 1st in the series when it comes to the "oh crap" moments, ME2 didn't disappoint me in this regards.

To put it simply: In ME1 we know the Reapers' goal, and in ME2 we're given the reasons for it.

First off, already knew what happened to the protheans in ME1. Just because vigil didnt mention the collectors by name or give an exact description doesnt mean he didnt exactly outline what happened: they became the reapers mindless servants. The only thing ME2 did was put a face on what we already knew.

Secondly, we arent given the reasons for it, EDI postulates that the reapers reproduce by turning organic races who are "compatible" into slush, and that this reaper juice is what gives them their life. Now maybe Im just in denial, but Im hoping in ME3 we learn that the reapers motives arent quite so.... godawful and insanely stupid .

Yeah, you set up this great mystery of systematic galactic extinction, only to turn this great enemy into some sort of borg ripoff? Thankfully due to ME2s almost complete lack of a substantial plot, the reapers reasons for doing what they do are still clouded in some measure of mystery. We know turning people into goo somehow creates reapers, but there is enough empty space left to move away from that crap and actually inject some intelligence into it all.

Regardless, we need some more actual exposure to the reapers in the plot again (something ME2 almost completely lacked - IFF was husk spam, and larvae was "go for teh eyes!" almost as soon as its discovered) before we can start nailing things down. ME1 laid the puzzle itself out to be solved, and ME2 added on extremely crappy piece to use, which might come in handy later, but seriously needs some more pieces added and fast, because on its own it sucks.

Anyway, while discussing the failures of ME2s plot requires spoilers, its probably best to leave it. I think its been done enough times that it doesnt merit going over to the spoiler forum to continue a disagreement based in what one person finds acceptable and another does not.

Modifié par Dinkamus_Littlelog, 20 août 2010 - 04:54 .

[bjdbwea]

I would like if Shepard woke up in ME 3 and learned that everything from ME 2 was just a bad dream. He'd still have his old crew, ship and status, and everyone would have a good laugh at the ridiculous "explanation" for the Reaper and Collector motives that Shepard came up with in that silly dream. "Like straight out of a terribly written video game", they would say.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 20 août 2010 - 04:56 .

[tonnactus]

Lumikki wrote...
Why you need numbers to play game?

Because roleplaying not only means to decide how a character act in dialogues,but also which abilities they use in
fights and conversations.Characterbuilding is a important part in rpgs,and without that,its not an rpg but something
like heavy rain.

[tonnactus]

bjdbwea wrote...

I would like if Shepard woke up in ME 3 and learned that everything from ME 2 was just a bad dream. He'd still have his old crew, ship and status, and everyone would have a good laugh at the ridiculous "explanation" for the Reaper and Collector motives that Shepard came up with in that silly dream. "Like straight out of a terribly written video game", they would say.

You know shepardt,some 100 years ago someone like uwe boll make movies as awfull as that.

[tonnactus]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

Secondly, we arent given the reasons for it, EDI postulates that the reapers reproduce by turning organic races who are "compatible" into slush, and that this reaper juice is what gives them their life. Now maybe Im just in denial, but Im hoping in ME3 we learn that the reapers motives arent quite so.... godawful and insanely stupid .

Reapers just using organics for reproduction is as dumb as the human batteries in the matrix films.But edi just said maybee...
Hopefully it wont turn out as it is.

[MrnDvlDg161]

Or Shepard woke up in ME3 and found that he was actually a Protheon being subjected to torture on a Reaper ship --- and the rest of the game is fast-action, FPS with you shooting it out and destroying the Reaper leader.

[Xeranx]

bjdbwea wrote...

I would like if Shepard woke up in ME 3 and learned that everything from ME 2 was just a bad dream. He'd still have his old crew, ship and status, and everyone would have a good laugh at the ridiculous "explanation" for the Reaper and Collector motives that Shepard came up with in that silly dream. "Like straight out of a terribly written video game", they would say.

As much as I hate the idea I have found myself thinking I would welcome such a scenario.

[Iakus]

[quote]Il Divo wrote...

But what is your basis for this conclusion? The narrative tells us that there is indeed a Collector vessel on "Shepard duty". Hence why all our encounters (5 in total) with the Collectors involve that same ship.

1) Shepard's death.
2) Horizon.
3) Derelict Collector Vessel.
4) The Capture of the Normandy's crew.
5) Suicide Mission encounter.

We learn about the first three from the Collector Ship. We learn about four and five during the suicide mission. This ship is specifically shown to be tracking Shepard. How do we conclude that the Collectors have only one ship (especially when considering the alternate EM signatures) when we are told that this ship is assigned to track Shepard? Of course we are only going to deal with this one ship if that is the case. [/quote]

We conclude this because we see no other ship, even defending the Collector base, and that we are not toldthat the ship is assigned to track Shepard.  I think this is a difference in interpreting that the same ship keeps turning up is "not a coincidence"

[quote]
Yes, the same one that's on Shepard duty. The same one that just hijacked your crew and headed beyond Omega IV also happens to be there when Shepard and co. make their way onto the Base. [/quote]

No other ships on patrol?  No other ships dropping off cargo?  No other ships refueling, or just docked there waiting for a mission?

[quote]

So, you're saying that logically the Collectors only have one ship because the narrative tells us that this one particular ship was specifically assigned to track Commander Shepard? [/quote]

Yes.  If the same ship keeps turning over and over and no other Collector ships are neither seen nor reported.  Plus it's taken to the point that the exact same ship is the last line of defense of the Collector base, it goes from ludicrous theory to reasonable (if contrived) conclusion.

[quote]
Again, Terminus Systems. The Collectors operate in the Terminus Systems. Random colonies are hit at random times. There is no pattern to the attacks. No one has any idea what is going on. Humanity has just obtained a seat on the Council, had to fight a Geth fleet, and is now forced to help rebuild the Citadel. Human colonies on the Terminus Systems are the least of their worries. [/quote]

I'm not necessarilly saying they'd send the fleet in (though Udina and Anderson used to demand that sort of thing, remember)  But they'd at least investigate.  Send Spectres, STG, C-Sec agents.  Hire mercenaries, use other intelligence-gathering services, whatever human agency replaced Cerberus when they went rogue.  Investigate, but keep a low profile.  Just because Shepard has to run down corridors shooting everything that moves, doesn't mean everyone in the Mass Effect universe is stuck with that job

[/quote]
[quote]
 In a universe that makes any sense at least.  I mean, entire colonies disappearing without a trace should draw attention.  The mere fact that multiple colonies disappearing without a trace should ring alarm bells.  Raiders, slavers, geth,  thresher maws, Cerberus experiments, plagues, Reaper tech gone haywire.  All would leave a trace.  But absolutely nothing?  This is already a sign that Something Is Not Right.  The smart money would be, as soon as atention is drawn, send out as many ships as possible, as quickly as possible, and load up on humans. [/quote]

Which triggers a full scale war with the Terminus Systems (Geth, Batarians, whatever) and still does not tell us who is behind the attacks. I do not risk war before I understand what threat I may be facing. The Alliance eventually does become involved by sending Williams/Alenko to Horizon. A long shot? Yes, but your solution would involve a huge conflict following severe damage to the Citadel fleets. That is not what anyone wants at this point over a few human colonies. [/quote]

I think you misunderstand me.  I'm saying that once the disappearing colonies start drawing attention (as was already starting to happen), the Collectors should swoop in with as many ships as they have, grab as many colonies as possible, and disappear behind the Omega-4 Relay.  That is, if they have more than one ship.

[quote]
[quote]
I suppose given the fact that the Council remains blissfully ignorant of any threat that exists up to an including an attempt by a Reaper to use the Citadel to end all advanced life in the galaxy, it really doesn't matter which method they choose, no one's gonna do anything.  But that seems so...contrived...[/quote]

RPG plots are the very definition of contrived. Mass Effect is filled with them. The entire 'Call to Adventure' doesn't make any sense. Hell, most plots are contrived in some manner. Are you really going to point out to me an interesting plot with absolutely no contrived elements to consider? [/quote]

There's contrived as incorporating odd coincidences into the plot.  I admit it's a staple in many rpgs, but as long as the game remains internally consistent, I'm (usually) content to let it go.  But then when it flies in the face of logic and continuity, I have a problem.  SHepard surviving the Prothean beacon falls in the first column, the Lazarus Project in the second.

btw, that's the "Call to Adventure"?  unless you're referring to the general start of an rpg.

Modifié par iakus, 20 août 2010 - 06:37 .

[MhorRioghain]

Since a number of ME2 fans are paraphrasing EDI's conjectures in rationalizing not only the Reapers' motivations but also altering the perspective gleaned from Soverign's revelations to fit the plot developments of the sequel, I found this post on a website quoting an Ex-Bioware writer who was in charge of writing EDI's dialogue:

I had written harder science into EDI's dialogue there. The Reapers were using nanotech disassemblers to perform "destructive analysis" on humans, with the intent of learning how to build a Reaper body that could upload their minds intact. Once this was complete, humans throughout the galaxy would be rounded up to have their personalities and memories forcibly uploaded into the Reaper's memory banks. (You can still hear some suggestions of this in the background chatter during Legion's acquisition mission, which I wrote.) There was nothing about Reapers being techno-organic or partly built out of human corpses -- they were pure tech.

It seems all that was cut out or rewritten after I left. What can ya do. /shrug

Here's the post: 

http://forums.anandt...93&postcount=13

However, the posts seem to have been removed from the forum that sourced the quote above.

Modifié par MhorRioghain, 20 août 2010 - 06:41 .

[Iakus]

MrnDvlDg161 wrote...

Again... probably a repetitive post on my part...

Some of you are are simply taking the plot of this game and attempting to over-load it to novel-depth levels when it wasn't made for  4th and 5th layers of critical thinking.

Its a Space Opera. Loose science.  There's plenty of holes ---  this is not  Honor Harrington... its  Star Wars.  Its Babylon 5.  Cool off and relax before the arguments start to pour through about complex plots and internal meanings.

Now I'm seeing some that are mainting the poor game is turning racist... I'm geez... ease up folks. If you don't like the game at this point...then I suppose you can mutter in rage and.... I don't know... play something else and leave it in the smouldering heap of ruin you put it in.

Oooh, an Honor Harrington rpg!  That would be incredible!  But way too much dialogue for the more..."action-oriented" crowd

Of course, with a game trilogy, we might have expected there to be enough room in Mass Effect for a bit more complexity than your standard computer game.  What with saves being imported, the implication of consequences being carried over across games, a plot that would actually take three games to go through rather than three seperate plots (or one plot told three different times, take your pick)

As for racism, no it isn't racist.  What it is developing is some sort of quasi-mystical "humans are special" theme with Shepard being the "most special" of them all.  It kinda smacks of the "Chosen One" theme that is a staple (perhaps cliche) of rpgs.  Mass Effect had more of a John McClane "that guy" kind of hero. Not a super-special person, just  an exceptional individual at the right place at the right time. 

[Mister Mida]

MhorRioghain wrote...

Since a number of ME2 fans are paraphrasing EDI's conjectures in rationalizing not only the Reapers' motivations but also altering the perspective gleaned from Soverign's revelations to fit the plot developments of the sequel, I found this post on a website quoting an Ex-Bioware writer who was in charge of writing EDI's dialogue:

I had written harder science into EDI's dialogue there. The Reapers were using nanotech disassemblers to perform "destructive analysis" on humans, with the intent of learning how to build a Reaper body that could upload their minds intact. Once this was complete, humans throughout the galaxy would be rounded up to have their personalities and memories forcibly uploaded into the Reaper's memory banks. (You can still hear some suggestions of this in the background chatter during Legion's acquisition mission, which I wrote.) There was nothing about Reapers being techno-organic or partly built out of human corpses -- they were pure tech.

It seems all that was cut out or rewritten after I left. What can ya do. /shrug

Here's the post: 

http://forums.anandt...93&postcount=13

However, the posts seem to have been removed from the forum that sourced the quote above.

Assuming this guy didn't talk crap:

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU-
Maybe a bit of an extreme response, but I preffered the Reapers to be pure AI's rather than super sized cyborgs.

[tonnactus]

MhorRioghain wrote...

Since a number of ME2 fans are paraphrasing EDI's conjectures in rationalizing not only the Reapers' motivations but also altering the perspective gleaned from Soverign's revelations to fit the plot developments of the sequel, I found this post on a website quoting an Ex-Bioware writer who was in charge of writing EDI's dialogue:

And this is really a explanation that would make sense.Not the insanely stupid reproduction theory.

Modifié par tonnactus, 20 août 2010 - 07:04 .

[Iakus]

[quote]Solaris Paradox wrote...

The same "stuff?" Oi, that "stuff" changes and adapts over time, remember? That "stuff" isn't supposed to stay the same. Keeping it the same cheapens it. Or causes inbreeding, depending on the context. Also, it kind of blows the mind when you think about the sheer size and scope that sort of cloning project would even be. Somehow I just think that when you ignore the genetic implications, abducting remote colonies under the political cover of the hostile Terminus Systems is preferable sheerly for the sake of convenience.[/quote]

I'm not even going to pretend to have a scientific mind.  I'm just thinking that DNA helixes are composed of chains of of the same "stuff" (been waay too long since I took a biology class) in millions of sequences.  Alter the sequences, alter the genetic code. 
[quote]Collectors should be able to examine some DNA strands, figure out what goes where, and start playing around with new strands.  I mean, the Reapers can repurpose whole species to suite their needs.  How hard could it be to make "artificial human smoothie"?[/quote]

The Collectors were repurposed starting with indoctrination, which results in mental breakdown over either a short or long period of time depending on how quickly the subjects are indoctrinated. They gradually failed and were augmented with tech to compensate. No glands, replaced by tech. No digestive system, replaced by tech. No soul. Replaced by tech. Didn't you listen to Mordin?


That sort of repurposing doesn't sound to me like the sort of thing you want to do to fuel the creation of a Reaper. You want fresh, top-quality produce, so you harvest it fresh, straight from the fertile soil of actual human society.
[/quote]

Collectors were alspo messed with on a genetic level, according to EDI:  "Their DNA showed signs of "extensive genetic rewrite" including three fewer chromosomes, reduced heterochromatin structure, and the elimination of superfluous "junk" sequences".  (from the wiki)

And no replacing organic bits with tech it doesn't sound like what you'd do with potential Reaper material.  However, their ability to alter beings on the genetic level (Keepers and Collectors) indicates that they are quite knowledgable with the process.  Which makes you wonder why they need "free range" humans at all.

[Fhaileas]

I found the Ex-Bioware guy on the forum which was listed as the source in the earlier post:

http://forums.f13.ne...26111#msg826111

I'm pretty sure he is legit! A quote from him:

Brian and I left, and Drew Karpyshyn transferred to Austin.

When I left, the writing team was slated to be ME1 vets Mac Walters (taking over for Drew as lead), Patrick Weekes, and Luke Kristiansen, with ME2 additions Malcolm Azania and Chris Hepler. Chris took my place as tech guy - he came up with the idea that Sovereign was hooting streams of molten metal and that Normandy's upgraded kinetic barriers rotate.

Hm... a quick intertube search reveals Malcolm has left BioWare too -- he's lead writer on Maxis' Darkspore.

Modifié par Fhaileas, 20 août 2010 - 07:14 .