10273 réponses à ce sujet

[Whatever42]

bjdbwea wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

If the story ends and that is the case, I will join you for a few days of rabble rousing hate. But the story is not done. I think people like you are the reason hollywood always turns out so much mindless drivel. They think their viewers are idiots and need to be hand-held through simple plots are get too easily lost.

I don't think I'm responsible for the dumbing down of ME 2 though. And actually, the main story is in no way complicated or thought-provoking. It's just dumb.

And "the story is not done" is also no explanation, let alone an excuse. While I'll give you that ME 3 might offer some better explanations for things that happened, and it should, each part of the trilogy has to make sense on its own. This was, for example, certainly the case in the SW series. And BioWare/EA even said themselves that they consider each part of the ME series to be a working stand-alone game. So it's not too much asked to give the explanations that have to be in this game, in this game.

And by the way, I agree with you that past BioWare games had great writing. I just think that apparently their best talents were working on DA and TOR, which might have put the ME 2 team in a difficult position. Hopefully they'll be smart and not discard every criticism as "hate", and instead learn from their mistakes. It's not that hard, if fan fiction writers on the internet can come up with better ideas, they certainly can too.

I would recommend finding a way to "un-explain" the human reaper thing. Write it out of the story somehow, and provide a better explanation for the motives of the reapers.

The story arc was written by Drew to encompass all 3 games. Yes, ME2 had different writers but they didn't re-write the story arc. If you so strongly object to trilogies that have a single story then you can't place the blame on 3rd string writers but blame Drew directly.
Of course, most people have seen these kinds of trilogies before and just roll with it. But I appreciate its not to your taste. If you like your fiction "dumbed down", there is plenty of other fiction for you to enjoy.  

[Fhaileas]

Mass Effect 2 comes off like a bad fanfic where the first one was a love letter to Sci-Fi from the sixties and seventies. There is nothing that they do in the game that hasn't been done already and done better. The joke coming out of it is that it believes it's original while failing to live up to the standard, it falls even further short than where Mass Effect 1 did. And though it compares itself to Empire Strikes Back as the dark second act, there really isn't anything dark about it other than a suicide mission that you could fail if you don't do the prep work for. (Which I passed with flying colors the first time through). So other than a few colonists dying, you basically end the game in the same place you were before. The Reapers are still coming, the Council still does not believe you (you may or may not have blown up the only evidence with which to prove them wrong), and you still have no idea how to beat them. This is why people are saying that Mass Effect 2 acts more like filler than the second part of a trilogy. There is nothing relevant about it and overall it really doesn't add anything to the series other than letting us see the Terminus Systems. If anything it turns the Reapers into a joke, the same way Harbinger did with the Collectors. Anything that could potentially make them scary has been stripped out as opposed to antagonists like the Many from System Shock 2 or the Borg.

And do not even get me started on the monumental research failures when it comes to the science they use in the game to explain why humans are "special". There is no excuse for not doing the research about humans, especially when it comes to genetic diversity. Humans are not even the most genetic diverse species on earth, we're beaten out by just about every single other mammal (except the ones we've bred, example being hamsters and even then sometimes it's not so, example being cats and pet rats) and everything else made up of cells. So you're going to tell me that humans are the best choice out of every other race in the galaxy, including one whose primary purpose is sleeping with other races. Really? Then you tell me, that our variety of personality traits come from the fact that we're genetically diverse? If you use that as an argument you find that people themselves are not actually all that diverse. So basically you end up going, um... what?

If we were genetically diverse as a species (the way cats are), we could breed with our first cousins without the ick factor and anything going wrong. Because there should be enough differentiation in the genetic code without anything going hideously awry which is by the way where the ick factor comes from.

With that knowledge in hand, the entire rationale for why the Reapers would even want humans to begin with is dicey at best and falls apart at worst. The writers could have just said that the Reapers wanted humans because they blew one up, makes perfectly logical sense and you don't have to justify it with bogus scientific explanations, that is easily pulled apart by any scientist you happen to mention this to. It's not exactly the most common of knowledge, but if you're going to include something like that, you should at least do the research to make sure that it's sound. Go find geneticist and ask or type in humans, genetic diversity on Google.

The two founders of Bioware are Doctors, that means they both either have Ph.Ds in something or they are MDs, either way I assume at some point in their careers they had to do research. There is no excuse for not doing it now.

Mass Effect's problem is that it doesn't know what it wants to be. Does it want to be an RPG with FPS elements? Does it want to be an FPS with RPG elements? It switches from one to the other between both games. Does it want to be an example of hard hitting sci-fi like the original Star Trek, the new Battlestar Galactica, and Babylon 5 or soft sci-fi like the original Battlestar Galactica and Star Trek or a space opera like Star Wars? The problem there is that it comes down to it wanting to be both. It doesn't pick. I don't think the writers even registered the differences between them before they started writing the story. The narrative also shows a lack of decisive direction that makes me feel that when they started writing the plot of the second game, they decided to retcon without putting in the necessary explanations other than "Cerberus is more versatile than you originally thought".

There are other reasons why Mass Effect 2's narrative falls to pieces, but that's the bare bones of it.

[bjdbwea]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

The story arc was written by Drew to encompass all 3 games. Yes, ME2 had different writers but they didn't re-write the story arc. If you so strongly object to trilogies that have a single story then you can't place the blame on 3rd string writers but blame Drew directly.
Of course, most people have seen these kinds of trilogies before and just roll with it. But I appreciate its not to your taste. If you like your fiction "dumbed down", there is plenty of other fiction for you to enjoy.

We know what Mr. Karpyshyn is capable of after ME 1. And BioWare/EA know too. TOR is supposed to be their new big money making machine, but for that is has to be really good and their best and proven writer needs to make sure of that.

I actually suspect the story in ME 2 doesn't have much in common with what was initially planned anyway. That's another reason I don't blame him: Even if he had written an original story arc, little of it seems to be left in ME 2.

There's simply no way the same guy who wrote something like ME 1 would then write something like ME 2 on his own. Well, perhaps if his artistic freedom was significantly limited from above.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 27 août 2010 - 08:12 .

[Whatever42]

Humans are not genetically diverse compared to specisis on Earth, absolutely correct. However, that does not mean humans are not genetically diverse compared to the other major races in the galaxy. We have no understanding of alien genetics. It boils down to the Reapers chose humanity because we're a good match for what they want to do with us. They don't go into a lot of detail, nor do they need to do so.



As to your other points, they are simply non-sensical ranting.

[Fhaileas]

"Humans are not genetically diverse compared to specisis on Earth, absolutely correct. However, that does not mean humans are not genetically diverse compared to the other major races in the galaxy. "

LOL! The utter absurdity of this statement knows no bounds. Thank you for your intelligent textual deconstruction.  
 

[Destyre]

Fhaileas wrote...

 If anything it turns the Reapers into a joke, the same way Harbinger did with the Collectors. Anything that could potentially make them scary has been stripped out as opposed to antagonists like the Many from System Shock 2 or the Borg.

I think that they were making a reaper that mimics Shepard in every way except the fact that it's the size of a Dreadnaught. With a booming voice, it would have stood over the meat and bones Shepard and declared "I should go"

I agree it's a bit weird. I quite fancied the explaination on Reapers given by Sovereign in the first game. The connection with the Collectors is uninteresting. At the end of the day, even though they stopped the construction of a Reaper in it's tracks, they still have an army of them marching into the galaxy anyway. I bet by the end of the trilogy, you could go back and snip the main story of ME2 out of the series and none would be the wiser.

Modifié par Destyre, 27 août 2010 - 10:46 .

[Lumikki]

bjdbwea wrote...

I don't think I'm responsible for the dumbing down of ME 2 though. And actually, the main story is in no way complicated or thought-provoking. It's just dumb.

I'm playing DAO at the moment and get these flash backs, is this allmost same story so far than in ME2 had. Sorry, I haven't really played DAO far yet. I started as mage (specter), then I get kick out (died) and become warden (working TIM). Then I have to rebuild forces agaist evil. By recruiting team members and visiting possible ally's. When I met these ally's they all have some personal issue what I have to personaly solve by fighting agaist alot of enemies. Most these issues has nothing to do with current major evil, they are just random problems what just happen to happen just now. This is so far in story I have got.

Oh, isn't this same base structure of story behind many of those games, Kotor 1, ME1 and Kotor 2 and so on.. Recruit and solve some places issues by fighting agaist mass of enemies.

Modifié par Lumikki, 27 août 2010 - 08:34 .

[bjdbwea]

Lumikki wrote...

I'm playing DAO at the moment and get these flash backs, is this allmost same story so far than in ME2 had. Sorry, I haven't really played DAO far yet. I started as mage (specter), then I get kick out (died) and become warden (working TIM). Then I have to rebuild forces agaist evil. By recruiting team members and visiting possible ally's. When I met these ally's they all have some personal issue what I have to personaly solve by fighting agaist alot of enemies. Most these issues has nothing to do with current major evil, they are just random problems what just happen to happen just now. This is so far in story I have got.

Yeah, I noticed that too. Just the other way around: Having played DA before ME 2, I noticed similarities too. But since DA was in development long before ME 2, I think it's clear who would have copied from whom.

And indeed, some parts of the story in ME 2 feel almost like a bad transition from DA. Actually, even the human reaper has some similarities to the darkspawn way of increasing their numbers. But while it already isn't very plausible and not the best writing in DA, in ME 2 it's just ridiculous.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 27 août 2010 - 08:35 .

[Lumikki]

bjdbwea wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

I'm playing DAO at the moment and get these flash backs, is this allmost same story so far than in ME2 had. Sorry, I haven't really played DAO far yet. I started as mage (specter), then I get kick out (died) and become warden (working TIM). Then I have to rebuild forces agaist evil. By recruiting team members and visiting possible ally's. When I met these ally's they all have some personal issue what I have to personaly solve by fighting agaist alot of enemies. Most these issues has nothing to do with current major evil, they are just random problems what just happen to happen just now. This is so far in story I have got.

Yeah, I noticed that too. Just the other way around: Having played DA before ME 2, I noticed similarities too. But since DA was in development long before ME 2, I think it's clear who would have copied from whom.

And indeed, some parts of the story in ME 2 feel almost like a bad transition from DA. Actually, even the human reaper has some similarities to the darkspawn way of increasing their numbers. But while it already isn't very plausible and not the best writing in DA, in ME 2 it's just ridiculous.

My point is that I played ME2 first, so DA feels like bad transition from ME2. You understand my point? For me DAO story feels just ridiculous.

Modifié par Lumikki, 27 août 2010 - 08:49 .

[Mister Mida]

Lumikki wrote...

bjdbwea wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

I'm playing DAO at the moment and get these flash backs, is this allmost same story so far than in ME2 had. Sorry, I haven't really played DAO far yet. I started as mage (specter), then I get kick out (died) and become warden (working TIM). Then I have to rebuild forces agaist evil. By recruiting team members and visiting possible ally's. When I met these ally's they all have some personal issue what I have to personaly solve by fighting agaist alot of enemies. Most these issues has nothing to do with current major evil, they are just random problems what just happen to happen just now. This is so far in story I have got.

Yeah, I noticed that too. Just the other way around: Having played DA before ME 2, I noticed similarities too. But since DA was in development long before ME 2, I think it's clear who would have copied from whom.

And indeed, some parts of the story in ME 2 feel almost like a bad transition from DA. Actually, even the human reaper has some similarities to the darkspawn way of increasing their numbers. But while it already isn't very plausible and not the best writing in DA, in ME 2 it's just ridiculous.

My point is that I played ME2 first, so DA feels like bad transition from ME2. You understand my point? For me DAO story feels just ridiculous.

In the end, all stories are the same.

[Lumikki]

Mister Mida wrote...

In the end, all stories are the same.

Yeah, but is it stories fault or ours, we "lost our interest" because stories "base" is so same kind?

Modifié par Lumikki, 27 août 2010 - 08:54 .

[bjdbwea]

Lumikki wrote...

My point is that I played ME2 first, so DA feels like bad transition from ME2. You understand my point? For me DAO story feels just ridiculous.

As I said: DA was in development long before ME 2. So while you may get a different feeling due to the order in which you played the games, in fact, if anyone copied from anyone, it would be ME 2 from DA.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 27 août 2010 - 09:02 .

[Lumikki]

bjdbwea wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

My point is that I played ME2 first, so DA feels like bad transition from ME2. You understand my point? For me DAO story feels just ridiculous.

As I said: DA was in development long before ME 2. So while you may get a different feeling due to the order in which you played the games, in fact, if anyone copied from anyone, it would be ME 2 from DA.

Okey, You did not understand my point, what was what order player has played those games, not when games where made. Games in order I played.

1. ME2 first, it was very interesting game, I was thinking this is best ever. Played few times.
2. ME1 because wanted see what happen to Shepard before ME2 story. Very nice game, played few times.
3. Kotor 1, very intersting and nice game, player two times.
4. Kotor 2, very similar to Kotor 1, but I did take break, got bored after 4 masters and ready to save prinsess. So allmost in the end.
5. DAO, I'm still playing it after getting 3 ally's and I'm boored allready. Story doesn't seem to go anywhere.

My point is that if game story structure is very similar behind the gameplay, it may be that last played stories feels  bad, because they are last played.  We players get bored to see same kind of stories, what makes us feel them as bad. Newer games may feel little better after older games, because they visuality, gameplay and impression has come better, not the story.

Modifié par Lumikki, 27 août 2010 - 09:25 .

[Mister Mida]

Lumikki wrote...

Mister Mida wrote...
In the end, all stories are the same.

Yeah, but is it stories fault or ours, we "lost our interest" because stories "base" is so same kind?

I should've said that all stories are the same because in essence two entities start to fight, and one of the two wins.

Modifié par Mister Mida, 27 août 2010 - 09:25 .

[MrnDvlDg161]

Did I imagine it?



Where the heck did the " What were you satisfied with ME2" post go --- that thing done disappeared.

[kraidy1117]

Mister Mida wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Mister Mida wrote...
In the end, all stories are the same.

Yeah, but is it stories fault or ours, we "lost our interest" because stories "base" is so same kind?

I should've said that all stories are the same because in essence two entities start to fight, and one of the two wins.

All Bioware games have a similar story, ME however is diffrent because in each game the story is not done compared to there other games where the story ends at the end of the game.
ME= You stoped Sovereign from brining the Reapers back but the Reapers are still at large
ME2=Yoiu spent majority of your time building your team {and also getting your fleet read if you look deeper, I find it funny that it was the side stories that where well written, not the crappy main story) You destory the Collectors and stop there Baby Reaper plan, but the Reapers are still there and coming.
ME3= Is the last chapter in the trilogy and will finish the story.

[shootist70]

Lumikki wrote...

I'm playing DAO at the moment and get these flash backs, is this allmost same story so far than in ME2 had. Sorry, I haven't really played DAO far yet. I started as mage (specter), then I get kick out (died) and become warden (working TIM). Then I have to rebuild forces agaist evil. By recruiting team members and visiting possible ally's. When I met these ally's they all have some personal issue what I have to personaly solve by fighting agaist alot of enemies. Most these issues has nothing to do with current major evil, they are just random problems what just happen to happen just now. This is so far in story I have got.

Oh, isn't this same base structure of story behind many of those games, Kotor 1, ME1 and Kotor 2 and so on.. Recruit and solve some places issues by fighting agaist mass of enemies.

It's a simple and common plot type that screen/script writers are familiar with, that generally follows a similar path that often goes something like:

 Inciting incident turns protag against antag. Protag starts out with initial success but suffers a setback. Protag discovers that courage alone won't suffice, and that his enemy is wiser/stronger than he thought. Protag leans that he must become wiser to defeat his enemy and so has to learn a new way to do it. Having built himself back up stronger and wiser, protag then embarks on high-risk, do-or-die resolution scenario.

You'll see it in a hell of a lot of novels, movies, games etc. I'm sure you can think of a few yourself. Star Wars is the most obvious example.

Modifié par shootist70, 27 août 2010 - 09:54 .

[Iakus]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

The story arc was written by Drew to encompass all 3 games. Yes, ME2 had different writers but they didn't re-write the story arc. If you so strongly object to trilogies that have a single story then you can't place the blame on 3rd string writers but blame Drew directly.
Of course, most people have seen these kinds of trilogies before and just roll with it. But I appreciate its not to your taste. If you like your fiction "dumbed down", there is plenty of other fiction for you to enjoy.  

But how much was actually written by the major arc?  Didn't they say in an interview that they have the major arc stuff planned out, but not nearly everything?  I can believe hey haa planned out that organics are somehow needed by Reapers.  But was that...thing...really what they had in mind from the beginning?  And turning it into a boss fight?  Really?

I've said that there's good stuff in ME 2.  But it was terribly executed. 

[Iakus]

Lumikki wrote...

bjdbwea wrote...

I don't think I'm responsible for the dumbing down of ME 2 though. And actually, the main story is in no way complicated or thought-provoking. It's just dumb.

I'm playing DAO at the moment and get these flash backs, is this allmost same story so far than in ME2 had. Sorry, I haven't really played DAO far yet. I started as mage (specter), then I get kick out (died) and become warden (working TIM). Then I have to rebuild forces agaist evil. By recruiting team members and visiting possible ally's. When I met these ally's they all have some personal issue what I have to personaly solve by fighting agaist alot of enemies. Most these issues has nothing to do with current major evil, they are just random problems what just happen to happen just now. This is so far in story I have got.

Oh, isn't this same base structure of story behind many of those games, Kotor 1, ME1 and Kotor 2 and so on.. Recruit and solve some places issues by fighting agaist mass of enemies.

I actually saw more similarities to ME 1

Origin story= Earthborn/Colonist/Spacer +Sole Survivor/War hero/Ruthless.  Except you get to experience it yourself

Grey Warden=Spectres  Warrior organization that operates outside standard of authority or society

Logain=Council only crazier.  I don't think he ever actually says "Ah, yes, 'archdemons'" though.

Delivering treaties is more like ME 2, but with far greater impact.  Your decisions can influence what kind of allies you get.  I do notice that blood magic turns up a lot in the problems, though.  Your choices matter!

Companions are deeper and better made than either ME game.  For one thing,  they acknowledge each others' existence! 

[kraidy1117]

iakus wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

The story arc was written by Drew to encompass all 3 games. Yes, ME2 had different writers but they didn't re-write the story arc. If you so strongly object to trilogies that have a single story then you can't place the blame on 3rd string writers but blame Drew directly.
Of course, most people have seen these kinds of trilogies before and just roll with it. But I appreciate its not to your taste. If you like your fiction "dumbed down", there is plenty of other fiction for you to enjoy.  

But how much was actually written by the major arc?  Didn't they say in an interview that they have the major arc stuff planned out, but not nearly everything?  I can believe hey haa planned out that organics are somehow needed by Reapers.  But was that...thing...really what they had in mind from the beginning?  And turning it into a boss fight?  Really?

I've said that there's good stuff in ME 2.  But it was terribly executed. 

This. ME2 story had potinal to be amazing, and even out do the ME story, it was done poorly. Too me it feels like the writing team decided to focus more on the characters andt he side stories.

[Lumikki]

iakus wrote...

Companions are deeper and better made than either ME game.  For one thing,  they acknowledge each others' existence! 

If you mean how much they talk about Allistairs socks. Yes, they talk each others when in team. How ever, they do not talk each others in camp, only in team situation or event missions. I have gone hole maps of enemies and they did not talk at all. Example in deep roads, they where very quiet. In cities they talk more. Yes, I know what you mean and I did like it, because I did no have to stop listen it, they just talked while we "travel". Back ground talking to create illusion of live impression. Sometimes they repeat same talking what they have allready done. How ever, I do agree that DAO did this good way.

Other ways DAO feels like playing some mmorpg. In ME series the situation is different, it's a lot more cinematic style, but even there it is also get quests then go and kill a lot of enemies. Some how I feel like story is playing in second role in Biowares games.

Modifié par Lumikki, 28 août 2010 - 07:50 .

[Spartas Husky]

hehehe still is so funny hearing morrigan allistair conversations, and shale lol just shale on her own is funny



ME needs more comic relief

[Ch40sFox]

Spartas Husky wrote...

hehehe still is so funny hearing morrigan allistair conversations, and shale lol just shale on her own is funny

ME needs more comic relief

Shale is a he...

The original ME had smart comic relief, not slapstick idiot kid humor like most people want these days.

Its sad, because, ME2 had kiddy humor, and lacked very much in the intelligence that the first had.

They even took out squadmates having different reactions to everything.... Liara reacted in a way that Wrex or Tali did not. Sure the premise of what they were saying was "close". But it was completely different from other characters.

In ME2, they gave ever single character the same reaction, everytime.

They mostly got rid of other squadmates actually commenting or responding to another squadmates statement. EVEN the random spontaneous conversations they had, except for ONE. Bring Garrus and Tali to the Citadel, and you get ONE spontaneous conversation.

Its sad how much the first one Overshadow's ME2, because ME2 could have been so much more, on so many different levels.

[bjdbwea]

That is true. Usually successors to successful games try to be "more". Not only is ME 2 as a whole a lesser game, it doesn't even feel as if the developers tried. Inventory was clunky? Remove it. Vehicle wasn't perfect? Remove it. Some people complained about elevators? Replace them with generic loading screens that take almost as long. And even things that probably no one ever complained about, like spoken briefings, were removed.

[tonnactus]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
I believe that the Reaper sentience is made up of the millions of minds ascended to create it (hence the requirement for organic tissue). I believe that the indoctrination field is used to keep all those minds borg-like in service the the hive mind.

That doesnt make sense because indoctrination is a degenerative process and the reapers would become dumb and mindless after some time.But wait...
That could be the reason why harbinger repeats his dumb sentences time after time and build a gigantic terminator.