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Disappointment With Mass Effect 2? An Open Discussion.


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#951
geordiep

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Brako Shepard wrote...

Sorry matey, but if I am on a mission where I have a 50/50 chance of living, I want to know the crew I have is going to be there for me. If means me helping a team member save his son from a life of crime, then so be it.


Its a game.. there is no crew... and you're not going to die.

This needless loyalty garbage was the centre piece for ME2... which is the point Im trying to make.
Two missions for each crew member is a bit OTT IMO.
Theres like what 4 quest missions? Then its over... certainly lacking content dont you think?

#952
Massadonious1

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Games are reptitive? No way. I thought I was jumping on Goombas and Turtles with individual personalites.

#953
KitsuneRommel

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iakus wrote...

I had gotten the urge a couple of nights ago to start another ME1 game (I've never tried playing a soldier before) and from the first moment I felt the old thrill.  No, it doesn't run as smoothly as ME2 but right from the beginning I felt i was Doing Something Important.  Save the colony!  Protect the beacon!  "I'm Commander Shepherd, and I save the galaxy for a living!"   Plus I found I was having fun with the assault rifle :)


I'm thinking about playing ME1 again too. I just can't make up my mind about what class to play. I don't think it's going to be soldier though since that would take the last bit of challenge away from the game.

#954
uberdowzen

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KitsuneRommel wrote...

iakus wrote...

I had gotten the urge a couple of nights ago to start another ME1 game (I've never tried playing a soldier before) and from the first moment I felt the old thrill.  No, it doesn't run as smoothly as ME2 but right from the beginning I felt i was Doing Something Important.  Save the colony!  Protect the beacon!  "I'm Commander Shepherd, and I save the galaxy for a living!"   Plus I found I was having fun with the assault rifle :)


I'm thinking about playing ME1 again too. I just can't make up my mind about what class to play. I don't think it's going to be soldier though since that would take the last bit of challenge away from the game.


If you haven't done Vanguard, I'm doing it right now and it's pretty fun.

#955
KitsuneRommel

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uberdowzen wrote...

If you haven't done Vanguard, I'm doing it right now and it's pretty fun.


Sadly Vanguard was the first class I played. I might try the Infiltrator (playing one in ME2 now).

#956
Jebel Krong

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Terror_K wrote...

Yet I feel almost the opposite: I've got several characters in limbo in ME2 because I just can't find the motivation to play it. That was rarely a problem with ME1 at all. I'm finding it hard to even finish what I consider my ultimate Paragon canon playthrough right now. I just find the mechanics of the gameplay too repetitive, simple and tedious.


i'm six into two and it's still interesting and relatively fresh, i did 10-12 in me1 before i got very tired of it (mainly due to pacing early game more than anything, and having seen evrything). mass effect 2 still tops out slightly longer overall, as well even cutting down planet scanning to almost zero, which is surprising.

#957
Jebel Krong

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SkullandBonesmember wrote...

uberdowzen wrote...

But like I said before, I don't think you represent the majority of the fans. The majority of the fans I would suspect liked the balance of combat and dialogue. And remember that almost every change in ME2 was driven by the fans.


There WASN'T balance. It was combat>story>character interaction.

And just because a lot of people like something doesn't mean quality. Look at Twilight and McDonalds.


there was no more emphasis on combat in the actual game than in me1, just because it was done better does not mean the game leant more weight to combat than story or the characters, the story was about the same length as me1 (longer if you count loyalty missions), there were far more characters and said characters were far more fleshed out/deep in the sequel.
appealing to more people doesn't equate to a drop in quality, either - BW's reputation is testament to that (and reputations count for a lot in the game industry - just look at Infinity Ward and Activision).

#958
Dudeman315

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Proof of bioware lying is about 6 post in:
meforums.bioware.com/viewtopic.html?topic=683695&forum=144

I still agree with there decision to change this though!

#959
Jebel Krong

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Dudeman315 wrote...

Proof of bioware lying is about 6 post in:
meforums.bioware.com/viewtopic.html?topic=683695&forum=144

I still agree with there decision to change this though!


:blink:
a. what has that got to do with anything in this thread?
and
b. how is that proof of BW lying about anything?

#960
Xpheyel

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Terror_K wrote...

It's not hard to give more depth and balance to the weapons system; the concept is no different than doing the same in a good fantasy RPG. It's all about the attributes of the weapons and giving some high values in one attribute and low values in others, while other weapons have different higher and lower values. This way a player has to decide whether they want more damage or more accuracy, more damage or more shield/armour bypass, more clips/less overheat for less damage, or less clips/faster overheat for more... stuff like that. The problem with ME1's weapons was that they barely did this, and generally when you came across a better gun it was better across the board, with a few exceptions.


That's my whole point, it wasn't deep, because they didn't do that. You keep saying ME2 is shallower, and I mean in this regard in particular, I don't see any basis for that. I've explained why. 

Terror_K wrote...
ME2 kind of does this, but its limited to the types of weapons, and there's essentially only one weapon of each type, so once you've found that one you want there's no need to ever change or look for something new (on top of that there's never a need to look for anything new because its always in the same damn place and you always know where it is and how to get it). 

 

If you mean theres one HEAVY shotgun and one ASSAULT shotgun then that is true. But it is completely irrelevant. The fact that there is a heavy shotgun and an assault shotgun at all, and that I have to pick one, is precisely what ME1 lacks. That makes ME1 shallow.

Terror_K wrote...
ME2's system was essentially "get your favourite gun from the same place it always is... use it until end game" which is boring and lacking in variety. The weapons hold no more significance than coming across the next gun in Doom or Quake. At least ME1 (if you avoid the Spectre Weapons) made you hunt for the best weapons and best armour in the game. Even in the case of the Spectre Weapons they weren't just given to you; you had to buy them, which wouldn't have been so much of a problem if the economy wasn't so damn broken and cash was easier to find than a drunk Irishman.


If you enjoy that, that is fine. It didn't add anything in particular for me when looking for armors or other equipment. I don't see how randomization contributes to depth, however. If anything, it has a strong potential to break it because it creates situations where you just use whatever is statistically best because the RNG generated it, rather than choosing from a range of arguably equally effective but different options. 

Terror_K wrote...
And you may say that the Vs. Organic and Vs. Synthetic ammo mods had a problem, but I found that added extra depth and made you plan your upcoming battles, which was something ME2 lacked entirely. Sure, it was an easy swtich to make on the battlefield, but one still required to get out of combat and make a switch to do so, and if they brought back weapon mods and combined them with ME2's loadout system for the third game (i.e. you can only mod your weapon at a loadout) this mechanic would work even better, since you'd have to choose even more carefully for the mission ahead.


I don't recall actually having to get out of combat to switch mods on the PC version at least. Save was disabled but not the inventory screen. That's why I don't think its deep. You don't have to plan. You just have to put up with the inventory screen repeatedly. 

Modifié par Xpheyel, 30 avril 2010 - 03:00 .


#961
tonnactus

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Xpheyel wrote...


That's my whole point, it wasn't deep, because they didn't do that. You keep saying ME2 is shallower, and I mean in this regard in particular, I don't see any basis for that. I've explained why. 
 


Mass Effect had such things like snowblind and high explosive ammo.Frictioness Materials and scram rails.So the player could go for high damage and lower firerate/bigger overheat or higher firerate and lesser damage.The game doesnt have variety in upgrading biotics and tech.At least in the early levels the player could decide if he/she take a bioamp that increases duration or cooldown.(also strenght)
No meaningfull armor costomization exists anymore.Medical exoskleletons to decrease the cooldown of all powers.Nope.Something to increase mobile accuracy??Nope.Energize platings to improve the damage protection.Hardened shields come in this direction a little...

#962
Xpheyel

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tonnactus wrote...

Xpheyel wrote...


That's my whole point, it wasn't deep, because they didn't do that. You keep saying ME2 is shallower, and I mean in this regard in particular, I don't see any basis for that. I've explained why. 
 


Mass Effect had such things like snowblind and high explosive ammo.Frictioness Materials and scram rails.So the player could go for high damage and lower firerate/bigger overheat or higher firerate and lesser damage.The game doesnt have variety in upgrading biotics and tech.At least in the early levels the player could decide if he/she take a bioamp that increases duration or cooldown.(also strenght)
No meaningfull armor costomization exists anymore.Medical exoskleletons to decrease the cooldown of all powers.Nope.Something to increase mobile accuracy??Nope.Energize platings to improve the damage protection.Hardened shields come in this direction a little...


Right which is why we're talking about the weapon selection in particular. Customization is certainly weaker, and I would like to see it strengthened. 

And even with that customization you couldn't build a Viper or a Revenant or a Vindicator out of it.  You get close with some of the shotguns. Though, I don't think the last 20% from Snowblind really turns something into the Claymore if you already have two scram rails. 

Though I still think, as I've said, the ONLY limitation on how often you switch mods to my recollection is how irritating it is. I don't know if there is anything stopping you from swapping in Medical Exoskeletons, using a power to get a low cooldown, then swapping damage protections back in but I don't recall there being one. You're not really exposed to the drawbacks of having less damage protection except for the second it takes to cast the power and pause the game again. Weapon/ammo mods have the same problem. You don't ever actually have to deal with the drawbacks of your choice.

#963
SkullandBonesmember

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uberdowzen wrote...

When has Bioware lied?


Well here's a couple off the top of my head.

1)They said there would be something like 150 choices that would matter carried over into ME2 from ME1.

2)They said it was possible to let Joker die, making it quite clear leaving him behind in the BEGINNING of the game would have been a renegade choice, so no, they weren't talking about the other part later on.

3)When they were 50 percent done with ME1, they said interrupts would be implemented. It's safe to say with the game half completed they would have known whether or not that was possible.

#964
Dudeman315

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"Ahhh, ok my bad. The question then is:



"After finishing ME2 can I take my character and restart a new playthrough preserving that characters gear and abilities."



The short answer is no.



The reason is progression. We have been working very hard to make sure we design the abilities system to offer smooth progression into ME3 from ME2. Allowing double progression on characters makes that almost impossible. We have to have reasonable knowledge about where a character could end up finishing all content on a playthrough. We also want to offer choice of character build within specific classes.



We replaced that feature with playing after you were done because it preserves progression and allows for smoother downloading of PRC."--Preston Watamaniuk Mass Effect Lead Designer



B) ME2 has new game+ so he lied about ME2 not having it. People were saying bioware never lies I have proof that they do.



a) not much really but when people tell me stuff like bioware would never do X because they wouldn't do it and they clearly have done X, it reduces both the credibility of the bioware and the person not checking their references properly when stating absolutes.

#965
JKoopman

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Dudeman315 wrote...

"Ahhh, ok my bad. The question then is:

"After finishing ME2 can I take my character and restart a new playthrough preserving that characters gear and abilities."

The short answer is no.

The reason is progression. We have been working very hard to make sure we design the abilities system to offer smooth progression into ME3 from ME2. Allowing double progression on characters makes that almost impossible. We have to have reasonable knowledge about where a character could end up finishing all content on a playthrough. We also want to offer choice of character build within specific classes.

We replaced that feature with playing after you were done because it preserves progression and allows for smoother downloading of PRC."--Preston Watamaniuk Mass Effect Lead Designer

B) ME2 has new game+ so he lied about ME2 not having it. People were saying bioware never lies I have proof that they do.

a) not much really but when people tell me stuff like bioware would never do X because they wouldn't do it and they clearly have done X, it reduces both the credibility of the bioware and the person not checking their references properly when stating absolutes.


That's not an example of BioWare lying. At the time the comment was posted, there was no NewGame+ planned for ME2. But the fan reaction to it's removal prompted the devs to change their minds and reimplement it. There was actually an announcement posted about a month or so later stating that BioWare had listened to the fans and NewGame+ was now confirmed to be included.

Game development is an organic process. What's true one day may not necessarilly be true the next. For example, being able to leave Joker behind on the Normandy may have been planned at one point but perhaps focus testing showed it was unpopular so they changed it.

That's not to say that BioWare hasn't lied about anything. But accusing them of dishonesty for what amounts to listening to their fans does us all a disservice.

Modifié par JKoopman, 30 avril 2010 - 08:00 .


#966
Dudeman315

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JKoopman wrote...
Game development is an organic process. What's true one day may not
necessarilly be true the next. For example, being able to leave Joker
behind on the Normandy may have been planned at one point but perhaps
focus testing showed it was unpopular so they changed it.


Thank you for understaning my point.  Which is why anything that bioware says or plans for ME3 can change until it is released.  So "because bioware said so" is not a valid argument point for anything in the future.  It's a guess at best until ME3 is released. 

As ME3 stands now based on ME2 I plan to youtube ME3 rather than actually buy it so I can watch the 30min of actual Shepard vs Reaper/reaper pawns/anything relevant to ME1 & 2 main plots.  Rather than waste $ on ME2 part 2 or completly different ME game 3. 
Loyalty mission needed to =/= daddy/child issue missions.  I'm a f n soilder not a day time talkshow host.  Plus the ,"Hey random person x how would like to go on a suicide mission? You do that's great." didn't really sit well with me either.  The plot designers need run there plots by some one like allen moore who would go why whould character X actually be talked into that so easily or why would paragon shep work with an assassin?

#967
KitsuneRommel

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Dudeman315 wrote...
The plot designers need run there plots by some one like allen moore who would go why whould character X actually be talked into that so easily or why would paragon shep work with an assassin?


Paragon ≠ Lawful Good (in D&D terms). Consider the entire Garrus recruitment mission. Lieing and backstabbing much?

#968
Dudeman315

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Renegade is roughly equal to chaotic good(ends justify the means) so is paragon neutral good?

#969
KitsuneRommel

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Dudeman315 wrote...

Renegade is roughly equal to chaotic good(ends justify the means) so is paragon neutral good?


Neutral good for paragon would be pretty close. Renegade is way too cruel to be good though.

#970
SkullandBonesmember

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KitsuneRommel wrote...

Renegade is way too cruel to be good though.


This.

#971
uberdowzen

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SkullandBonesmember wrote...

Well here's a couple off the top of my head.

1)They said there would be something like 150 choices that would matter carried over into ME2 from ME1.

2)They said it was possible to let Joker die, making it quite clear leaving him behind in the BEGINNING of the game would have been a renegade choice, so no, they weren't talking about the other part later on.

3)When they were 50 percent done with ME1, they said interrupts would be implemented. It's safe to say with the game half completed they would have known whether or not that was possible.


1) Have you counted?
2) They probably decided throwing a big descion at you that early in the game was a bad idea.
3) No they could have changed something 50% through. As long as the game is well coded you can change things.

Anyway that's not lying, thats BW changing there mind on things that they want to do. They're not doing it to try and trick people.

#972
SkullandBonesmember

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uberdowzen wrote...

They're not doing it to try and trick people.


Sure they're not.

As for the choices, ask anybody on this board, whether happy with ME2 or not, most agree the choices made in ME1 that were supposed to matter do not exist. I always do a completionist playthrough and on my first game I can't remember 10 decisions that carried over. I'm almost done my NG+ and I've got the same(lack of)results.

#973
KalosCast

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It's the middle of the series, of course there's not major closure, and it's idiotic to think that your decisions from ME1 would have a significant effect on your main quest in ME2 because (1) You're operating in a wholly different area of space than the one you stomped all over in the first game (2) It would alienate any players who didn't have a save game to import and (3) There's still an entire 'nother game for them to throw these things in.



The only real complaint I have about ME2 is that it no longer feels like an open universe. Even if a planet was really boring and had nothing going on in ME1, you were still likely able to land on it, instead of having your shuttle drop you off at the front door of whatever merc base is on the planet. Even simple things like walking to the airlock of your own ship have been wholly removed. You don't really have a ship anymore, you have a chrome mission hub. Likewise, it doesn't feel like you go to planets anymore, just levels.

#974
SkullandBonesmember

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KalosCast wrote...

It's the middle of the series, of course there's not major closure, and it's idiotic to think that your decisions from ME1 would have a significant effect on your main quest in ME2 because (1) You're operating in a wholly different area of space than the one you stomped all over in the first game (2) It would alienate any players who didn't have a save game to import and (3) There's still an entire 'nother game for them to throw these things in.


No it's not idiotic because Bioware implied, in crystal clear context, otherwise.

#975
uberdowzen

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SkullandBonesmember wrote...

KalosCast wrote...

It's the middle of the series, of course there's not major closure, and it's idiotic to think that your decisions from ME1 would have a significant effect on your main quest in ME2 because (1) You're operating in a wholly different area of space than the one you stomped all over in the first game (2) It would alienate any players who didn't have a save game to import and (3) There's still an entire 'nother game for them to throw these things in.


No it's not idiotic because Bioware implied, in crystal clear context, otherwise.


Firstly, KalosCast is right. Some of the descions may be taken through from ME1 may be taken to ME3 (in fact I'd put money on it). Secondly, there are way more than 10. Take a look at this: www.gamefaqs.com/boards/genmessage.php

Remember there are some choices like what you chose to do with the mother and brother in law on the citadel (in relation to the baby), that affects what the woman and man in one of the citadels stores are talking about.