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[Nightwriter]

Story, plot and characters are always so much more important to me than gameplay. Horrid gameplay can be totally overlookable to me if the story is excellent. However the most awesome gameplay in the world is nullified if it doesn't have good story, plot and characters to give it meaning and value (when it comes to BioWare games).

[Lumikki]

Terror_K wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

I'll happily defend ME2 mechanics. Mostly I go after ME1 because I'm incredulous anyone would hold that up as example of how to do it right.

Which is the very problem. In a lot of cases ME1 admittedly didn't do things right, but it at least tried to actually do things.

Who's opinions, yours?

Exactly, not everyone else see it this way. What you think was "they tried to do it right" is in reality "they did tryed to do way I liked". See the difference. Not everyone see it as they tryed to do it right, some see ME2 tryed to do it right. Or they both tryed to do it right, but both are what they are.

My point, some people see it opposite than you do, so of cause they disagree. My self do both agree and disagree with you. I'm disagree mostly related  base style of game and agree with impression, customation and variety related stuff. It's more about how something is done, than should it be done.

Modifié par Lumikki, 04 septembre 2010 - 04:33 .

[Revan312]

Hehe, that was fun last night :happy:

Nightwriter wrote...

Story, plot and characters are always so much more important to me than gameplay. Horrid gameplay can be totally overlookable to me if the story is excellent. However the most awesome gameplay in the world is nullified if it doesn't have good story, plot and characters to give it meaning and value (when it comes to BioWare games).

This is exactly how I think, which is why I say that ME2 failed to deliver the goods. Over the top, half naked torture victims and dying assassins with a heart of gold don't a good story make. And the priiiize of the whole plot was a revelation that they pulled straight out of an 80's side scroller. If only Biware would just write the story they want and not what they focus group for "coolness" factor...

[Nightwriter]

My sentiments exactly. The characters in ME2 were, imo, much better drawn, and I really fell in love with them, but at heart I really don't think that characters should carry the entire plot.

[Iakus]

Carmen_Willow wrote...

I bought Mass Effect some months ago, it having been reccommended to me as someone who loves Dragon Age: Origins and wanted something similar. I tried 3 separate times to get into Mass Effect and put it down again because the game play was often so tedious. In particular, the mini game is very frustrating for left-handed people as you must play it with your non-dominant hand.

I'm curious.  Was this on a PC or Xbox?  I'm left-handed also and never had a problem with the minigame (other than it was really boring), but I play on a PC and I understand that the game is different on those.

Add to that the rather bizzare and difficult to fathom weapons upgrades, etc., it just took away all the fun.

Never had a problem figuring out the upgrades.  There were way too many of them, yeah.

I loved the gameplay, the easier to understand weapons and armor, but I thought it needed more dialogue and more romance. I was also disappointed at the limited romance choices for women. Still, I got into the story, and I had characters that I loved and characters that I hated, so all in all it was good. I also wished there were more interaction between the NPCs as there is in Dragon Age: Origins. The dialogue going on behind your back was very entertaining and gave you more insight into your companions.

Gameplay I can ultimately take or leave.  I'm not happy about someof the changes, but can live with them.  Story can most accurately (to me) be described as "crushing disappointment"

More depth in the story telling, with streamlined gameplay, and I am a happy camper. And I loved the way you got a summary at the end of each mission. It was like the end of a chapter in a book.

Can't argue with that.  Although summaries were meh.  Would rather talk with squadmates about the missions.

The wonderful difference between Bioware games and Bethesda is that you don't feel alone in the universe. I love Oblivion's gameplay, but it is a very lonely game No companions who truly interact with , no one to fall in love with. I hope Bioware keeps going and can find that happy balance.

True enough, but ME 2 felt pretty lonely too. This is the first Bioware game that allows two or more companions with zero banter.  Not even elevators.

[bjdbwea]

I think characters can carry an entire plot. If written well. Just that ME 2 didn't deliver that. While some of the writing for the companions was good, each companion (except Mordin) had too little to say, most of them had little depth, and they all existed in their own universe, without any connection to the main plot or to each other.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 04 septembre 2010 - 05:44 .

[Lumikki]

bjdbwea wrote...

I think characters can carry an entire plot. If written well. Just that ME 2 didn't deliver that. While some of the writing for the companions was good, each companion (except Mordin) had too little to say, most of them had little depth, and they all existed in their own universe, without any connection to the main plot or to each other.

What you look is characters personal connection to main blot, when that's not what "real" persons allways have. It's like over emotional acting in movie. Some people likes when they can get in "head" of character and feel they pain and motive to act. But some other people feels like it's not natural that every "character" has personal "hate" motive to do stuff.

Modifié par Lumikki, 04 septembre 2010 - 06:27 .

[Iakus]

Nightwriter wrote...

Story, plot and characters are always so much more important to me than gameplay. Horrid gameplay can be totally overlookable to me if the story is excellent. However the most awesome gameplay in the world is nullified if it doesn't have good story, plot and characters to give it meaning and value (when it comes to BioWare games).

I agree in general.  Bad gameplay can be overshadowed by great story.  There are limits, of course.  I just can't finish Oblivion due to the broken leveling system.  But in the case of Mass Effect, if ME 2 's story was an actual continuation of ME 1, I'd have happily accepted all the gameplay changees.  The story's worth it

[Nightwriter]

Characters can carry an entire plot. Imo, DA:O did this superbly. The darkspawn weren't terribly interesting, but the characters and how they responded to them were.

The problem is that you need a base plot (the darkspawn) and then the characters are built off of that. In ME2, the characters were the base plot, and the message was just "get to know these people".

Characters are kind of like romance. It shines best when it happens while you're doing something else. Meeting someone as a friend first, working together, seeing them at school, interacting non-romantically and having attraction build, is better than meeting them for the purpose of romance. Likewise, getting to know a character is better when bonding is not the goal.

[Lumikki]

Nightwriter wrote...

Characters can carry an entire plot. Imo, DA:O did this superbly. The darkspawn weren't terribly interesting, but the characters and how they responded to them were.

Assuming that player is interested to connect to characters in personal level, what if player isn't. What's left then for story?

[upsettingshorts]

Same could be said of the plot, especially if the tension or pacing fails.  There goes the interest in the story.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 04 septembre 2010 - 06:41 .

[Iakus]

Lumikki wrote...

bjdbwea wrote...

I think characters can carry an entire plot. If written well. Just that ME 2 didn't deliver that. While some of the writing for the companions was good, each companion (except Mordin) had too little to say, most of them had little depth, and they all existed in their own universe, without any connection to the main plot or to each other.

What you look is personal connection to main blot, when that's not what "real" persons allways have. It's like over emotional acting in movie. Some people likes when they can get in "head" of charcater and feel they pain and motive to act. But some other people feels like it's not natural that every "character" has personal "hate" motive to do stuff.

It's more than that.  The characters only come alive in their own stories.  They have nothing to say in anyone else's.  Even when the character's personality or backstory could provide the character with unique insights into the situation.

Do they all need a personal reason to go after the Collectors?  No.  But it would have been nice for them to be at least a little curious about them.  As it is, even Shepard isn't very curious about them.

In addition, the characters simply do not acknowledge each other.  The "banter" that many of us sorely miss.  It would have made the squadmates much more like people and less like windup toys.

[Revan312]

So since we all agree on that, what are your biggest hopes and fears for the story going into the final installment?



I hope - that it is going to be Reaper centric with Shepard perhaps going into darkspace on a mission you have a 99% chance of not coming back from, unlike ME2 where you have to actively try to get Shepard killed... I'm really expecting something extremely dark, such as team mates becoming indoctrinated at various points, even Shepard potentially helping the Reapers, multiple endings based on decisions you've made in the past two games etc etc..



I fear - Bioware is going to once again go the Michael Bay route and have Shepard spewing out one liners like a bad Tarentino film while the Reapers get their asses handed to them.. That it will be 90% getting ready for the "final battle", that of which will be short, cliched and overly predictable and finally that our decisions will mean jack all to the main story and we'll be left with yet another "standalone" game..



I'm gonna put my assumption on the 'I fear' section as I just don't want to get hyped up for the game only to play it and watch the entire potential of the franchise go down in B movie flames...

[Lumikki]

iakus wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

bjdbwea wrote...

I think characters can carry an entire plot. If written well. Just that ME 2 didn't deliver that. While some of the writing for the companions was good, each companion (except Mordin) had too little to say, most of them had little depth, and they all existed in their own universe, without any connection to the main plot or to each other.

What you look is personal connection to main blot, when that's not what "real" persons allways have. It's like over emotional acting in movie. Some people likes when they can get in "head" of charcater and feel they pain and motive to act. But some other people feels like it's not natural that every "character" has personal "hate" motive to do stuff.

It's more than that.  The characters only come alive in their own stories.  They have nothing to say in anyone else's.  Even when the character's personality or backstory could provide the character with unique insights into the situation.

Do they all need a personal reason to go after the Collectors?  No.  But it would have been nice for them to be at least a little curious about them.  As it is, even Shepard isn't very curious about them.

In addition, the characters simply do not acknowledge each other.  The "banter" that many of us sorely miss.  It would have made the squadmates much more like people and less like windup toys.

Yes, but that has nothing to do with plot of story or characters connection to story. It's about creating impression as characters would be more alive. That's totally different thing. Yes, I like good impression too and want to feel all npcs and companions would feel like alive.

[Nightwriter]

Lumikki wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Characters can carry an entire plot. Imo, DA:O did this superbly. The darkspawn weren't terribly interesting, but the characters and how they responded to them were.

Assuming that player is interested to connect to characters in personal level, what if player isn't. What's left then for story?

Can't please everyone, but most people I've talked to had nothing but good things to say about DA:O's characters.

If a player didn't necessarily like everyone, they at least liked one person enough to say the game was relatively well written and worth their time.

[bjdbwea]

Nightwriter wrote...

Characters can carry an entire plot. Imo, DA:O did this superbly. The darkspawn weren't terribly interesting, but the characters and how they responded to them were.

The problem is that you need a base plot (the darkspawn) and then the characters are built off of that. In ME2, the characters were the base plot, and the message was just "get to know these people".

I think even that could work. The problem is, we get to know so little about them. They don't have nearly enough to say for a game that relies so much much on being character-driven. They don't interact with each other. They don't develop. They only serve as the source for a dozen of totally independent short stories.

In other words: The amount of interaction with the companions might be sufficient if there was more to the game - namely a proper, adequately lengthy main story. The loyalty quests would then be the best character side quests ever. And ME 2 would certainly deserve a lot of praise. But these side missions alone, that's just not enough to carry the game.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 04 septembre 2010 - 07:07 .

[Lumikki]

Nightwriter wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Characters can carry an entire plot. Imo, DA:O did this superbly. The darkspawn weren't terribly interesting, but the characters and how they responded to them were.

Assuming that player is interested to connect to characters in personal level, what if player isn't. What's left then for story?

Can't please everyone, but most people I've talked to had nothing but good things to say about DA:O's characters.

If a player didn't necessarily like everyone, they at least liked one person enough to say the game was relatively well written and worth their time.

Yes, but point was that even if characters can carry story it requires that player create emotional attachment to characters, what doesn't allways happen. If main story is weak without characters, then for those players who don't bond with charcaters, hole story is weak.

To really create good story, both has to be done well. Interesting story with interesting characters.

Example I did not create connection to characters in Kotor 2, ME1, ME2 and DAO. How ever, I did connect in Kotor 1. Still ME1 seems fine, because story was fine. In DAO and ME2 main story wasn't really that interesting without characters.

Modifié par Lumikki, 04 septembre 2010 - 07:04 .

[Nightwriter]

Revan312 wrote...

So since we all agree on that, what are your biggest hopes and fears for the story going into the final installment?

I hope - that it is going to be Reaper centric with Shepard perhaps going into darkspace on a mission you have a 99% chance of not coming back from, unlike ME2 where you have to actively try to get Shepard killed... I'm really expecting something extremely dark, such as team mates becoming indoctrinated at various points, even Shepard potentially helping the Reapers, multiple endings based on decisions you've made in the past two games etc etc..

I fear - Bioware is going to once again go the Michael Bay route and have Shepard spewing out one liners like a bad Tarentino film while the Reapers get their asses handed to them.. That it will be 90% getting ready for the "final battle", that of which will be short, cliched and overly predictable and finally that our decisions will mean jack all to the main story and we'll be left with yet another "standalone" game..

I'm gonna put my assumption on the 'I fear' section as I just don't want to get hyped up for the game only to play it and watch the entire potential of the franchise go down in B movie flames...

The only thing I'd be afraid of is a repeat of ME2, every character strapped to a blade of a big revolving windmill, rising to the top for their one moment in the sun and then falling, forgotten, to be replaced another, who takes their turn at top spot, then they too fall, to be replaced by the next...

However, since ME3 will not be character focused like ME2 there's really no reason to worry about that. The only thing to worry about is no improvement in squad banter.

[Iakus]

[quote]Lumikki wrote...


It's more than that.  The characters only come alive in their own stories.  They have nothing to say in anyone else's.  Even when the character's personality or backstory could provide the character with unique insights into the situation.

Do they all need a personal reason to go after the Collectors?  No.  But it would have been nice for them to be at least a little curious about them.  As it is, even Shepard isn't very curious about them.

In addition, the characters simply do not acknowledge each other.  The "banter" that many of us sorely miss.  It would have made the squadmates much more like people and less like windup toys.

[/quote]
Yes, but that has nothing to do with plot of story or characters connection to story. It's about creating impression as characters would be more alive. That's totally different thing. Yes, I like good impression too and want to feel all npcs and companions would feel like alive.

[/quote]


Normally that's true.  Howver, in this case the squad is the story.  We're supposed to recruit and gain the loyalty of a squad of lean mean fighting machines.  While the game technically allows that to happen through recruitment and loyalty, the characters themselves have a very limited scope.  The game is very "insular" as Terror_K put it.  If the characters show no life, the game has no life.  If they connection to each other, they have no connection to the story.

[Lumikki]

iakus wrote...

Normally that's true.  Howver, in this case the squad is the story.

Isn't that same in DAO, emotional connection to companions was "main" story. I finded the real main story in DAO very dull and booring.

Modifié par Lumikki, 04 septembre 2010 - 07:11 .

[Nightwriter]

Lumikki wrote...

Yes, but point was that even if characters can carry story it requires that player create emotional attachment to characters, what doesn't allways happen. If main story is weak without characters, then for those players who don't bond with charcaters, hole story is weak.

To really create good story, both has to be done well. Interesting story with interesting characters.

I agree with this in general, definitely, but I don't believe character-driven stories like DA:O are to be totally dismissed for merit because there are a few people who will inevitably not feel emotionally attached to the characters.

The point is, most do. There will always be people who don't like something.

[Nightwriter]

bjdbwea wrote...

I think even that could work. The problem is, we get to know so little about them. They don't have nearly enough to say for a game that relies so much much on being character-driven. They don't interact with each other. They don't develop. They only serve as the source for a dozen of totally independent short stories.

In other words: The amount of interaction with the companions might be sufficient if there was more to the game - namely a proper, adequately lengthy main story. The loyalty quests would then be the best character side quests ever. And ME 2 would certainly deserve a lot of praise. But these side missions alone, that's just not enough to carry the game.

I definitely agree with you on this. Definitely.

I did feel that some of the characters developed, but each one did so incrementally, and each one in their own separate universe.

[stewie1974]

Overall I liked the streamlining and inventory clean up. That of course is a subjective viewpoint. It works for me, don't try to convince me otherwise. overall I'm a very happy camper with ME2 and I prefer it over the original.



I prefer the style of play, I prefer the speed, I prefer the pace, I prefer the simplicity of the mechanisim.



Things I hate from both games are pointless planet exploration... either by driving around in a replica of the 80's toy "Big Track"... which handles like a unicycle on jelly.. or pointlessly running a scanner over a planet ..... so fix planetry exploration to something a bit less distracting... hell just give the MAIN play arena's explorable areas where you can get all the stuff you need.... hell even some enemies in mines.



It would be nice if the annomlies found actually rewarded you with "bigger" stashes, so you didn't have to "mine" the rest of the galaxy hoping to find some materials... would be much better to steal a huge wad of pirate bootie then mine your own anyhow.



The "Mini games" from both games also annoy me.... it's either "concentric frogger or simon says" in the case of ME1... or "Memory game 1 and 2" in ME2.... I'm sure they can develop a better system....

[Iakus]

Revan312 wrote...

So since we all agree on that, what are your biggest hopes and fears for the story going into the final installment?

I also hope that ME 3 will be more Reaper-centric, and not introduce yet another slave race.  I'm hoping that the focus will be on uniting the races and finding weapons to defeat the Reapers.  I'm hoping that ME 3 will be the "bridge" between the other two games that ME 2 failed to be, providing answers to some of the more bizzare changes that took place.  I'm hoping for meaningful consequences, both good and bad, for actions taken in the first two games,  I'm hoping for enough epic for two games.  I'm hoping for a 50+ hour epic experience, minumum.  I'm hoping for many possible endings, from very dark to "and they all lived happily ever after" depending on choices made in all three games.  I'm hoping Reaper Baby gets a satisfactory explanation (I don't dare hope for a "good" explanation)  I'm hoping those who had a ME 1 LI get some sort of reward.  I'm hoping that "telling a great story" becomes the primary objective once again.

In short, I want the cinematic experience of Mass Effect, the mission malleability of Alpha Protocol, the team interaction of Dragon Age, and the consequences of The Witcher wrapped in an epic science fiction story.  Is that too much to ask?


What I fear is that we're going to get yet another standalone game that just happens to be set in the Mass Effect Universe and staring one Commander Shepard.  I fear that the actions taken in ME 2 as well as ME 1 will be rendered meaningless.  I fear there will be emails.  I fear there will be forced cameos given for no other reason that to justify the 1000 variables claim.  I fear that the game will end with Shepard slugging it out with Harbringer in a one-on-one fight because "Shepard is just that bad****".  I fear my companions in ME 3 will be  robotic mimes.  I fear that there will be exactly as much exploration in ME3 as ME2.  I fear a new bunch of hotties will be trotted out after the current crop spurns Shepard.  I fear corridors and doors locking behind me.  I fear Story will be sacrificed on the Altar of Awesome  I fear paying $60 for a 30 hour game.  I fear actual story will be relegated to DLC.  I fear all we will get is a sci-fi action special effects extraveganza even George Lucas would be embarassed to make

[Iakus]

Lumikki wrote...

iakus wrote...

Normally that's true.  Howver, in this case the squad is the story.

Isn't that same in DAO, emotional connection to companions was "main" story. I finded the real main story in DAO very dull and booring.

The main story in DAO was building an army.  The companions you get are strongly tied to the main story, expressing approval or disapproval in your decisions and many having their own agendas.  But the only companion absolutely vital to the game is Allistair, and maybe Morrigan (never tried to get rid of her).  You don't have to have any others.  You could be one very lonely Grey Warden if you wanted to.  But yes, the companions do add a great deal of color and fun to the game.

In ME 2, getting companions is the whole point.